Saved, then going into an Arminian church

[Semper Fidelis]

I wish I knew a simple way to tie together a few concerns that I see manifest in this thread.

I hope this comes together as being coherent.

I don't think there is an Arminian version of the Gospel and/or a Reformed version of it. There is a Gospel. If you believe that the Reformed testimony of what the Scriptures teach is not the Gospel then run as fast as you can from it.

There is a basic problem with asking a question like "What if they become a believer but then they die before they learn the real Truth about what they're supposed to believe." Isn't that quite like asking, what if they thought they believed the Gospel but then they die before they have a chance to learn what that Gospel is?

I think this thread would actually be much more straightforward for most people to be arguing for/against because they don't want to think that everybody in a Church that corrupts the Gospel is inexorably damned. I don't believe one needs to make that leap in order to make some conclusions about the nature of the Gospel.

I think what people understand by a trust in the "Truth" is a full orbed understanding of every Biblical Truth. Faith in Christ, however, is not a place where one begins with a less than saving faith and then builds up their knowledge to the point where they now have saving faith. A faith that is born from above rests upon Christ and His righteousness from the moment it is birthed in spiritual immaturity to the moment the person dies.

Further, as Paul makes clear in Galatians, the Gospel that a Church teaches dare not begin in the Spirit and finish by the deeds of the flesh. Beloved, that is precisely what any theology that denies that God calls a man to be saved and sanctified does. There may be better or worse forms of it but all of them are poisonous to the soul of the believer.

Next, it should be noted that it is not Reformed to speak in the abstract about the Covenant of Redemption (God's decree to redeem certain elect to Himself) without working in the "here and now" on the basis of the Covenant of Grace. One of the reasons God inspires the Gospel and institutes the Church is to bring the redemption of men and women to the present that we need not pointlessly speculate (indeed are forbidden to) about the identity of the elect.

That is to say that the actual faithful preaching of the Gospel has been ordained by God to the ends of calling men to Himself. He has also ordained Baptism and the Lord's Supper to confirm and strengthen the same to Himself.

I think then, fundamentally, we need to always step back from such questions and ask ourselves if what God reveals about such things is important or whether or not answering the hypothetical is warranted. Is it more important to affirm that, surely, Churches that neglect faithful preaching must have saved people? Does the Bible insist we must assume this? We need not claim they do not but that is different than insisting that they must.

Frankly, I've seen first hand over the years that this isn't just an "I like chocolate and you like vanilla" thing about the Gospel and God will sort it out. He gives me no authority to bind or loose as to who is really in His Kingdom and so I take baptized men and women on the basis that they have been joined to the Church. At the same time, however, I will absolutely insist that God's Gospel is heralded and that those things that confirm and strenghten in the faith be properly administered.

Pax.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

By the way, let me add that there is a real phenomena that I've seen that really concerns me about the spiritual health of men and women that I consider Brethren.

I've seen on multiple occasions people who purposefully attend a Calvary Chapel out here who came from OPC or PCA backgrounds. It has troubled my soul to literally hear multiple men state that they're more concerned about the programs that a Church offers than whether or not the Church proclaims the Truth. I think they just assume themselves mature enough to not have to worry about the kind of message that's coming from the pulpit.

Now, I don't immediately assume that such men are lost forever. My point is that I find this much more troubling than men who do so in ignorance but let's just say that my heart is burdened for both.

 

[Grymir]

Hi MMasztal and others viewing this thread. I'm going to be a bit personal and very autobiographical (that means talking about myself alot). But I believe it is very pertinent to this topic and will help. This is my spiritual history. Because it is HisStory.

Many moons ago, a hippie, new-age, liberal person was living in the new age capital of the USA. After finally being stable for the first time in his life, he thought about greater things. Always interested in wizardry, I was able to procure a book about it. Actually a few books. They all call for a spell table to be made to perform my incantations. One of areas on this table is a space for a 'holy symbol'. I was going to be a 'white' wizard and do 'good'. I went to the store and purchased a white KJV bible. With zipper closure too, but that's not germaine to the story.

As I was getting the rest of the spell table together, I looked at the Bible one day and thought "well, if I want to do witchcraft right, I'd better read the real guide, then I will know how to do it right" (That also tells you what my parents and the public schools taught me about God and His word).

Well, I picked up the Bible one day and started to read through it. I started at the beginning and was determined to read the entire book. As I was reading Genesis, I realized that this was not written by man. Of course, by the time I got to Deuteronomy, I realized that there was no such thing a 'white' wizard. I took all my occult stuff and burned it. $100 worth of incense burning has a smell I'll never forget, nor probably smell again.

It took me 8 months to read through it. I became a believer because of reading the Bible. As I was reading it, I had alot of interactions with my old 'party' friends, worldly people, and even well meaning Christians who challenged what I was reading, tried to debunk it, or get me to read their 'pet' book that would explain to me the scriptures. I would have none of it, because I didn't want anything to pollute my mind or my reading. I wanted the Bible to speak for itself and I wanted it alone. I then found the local Christian radio station and heard good teachers and R.C. Sproul!

Anyway, I moved to Bastrop, and saw a church with a Star of David window in the front. I stopped one day to ask why? (They were not Jewish nor messianic). The secretary and her husband were there. He took me into the sanctuary and asked me why I wasn't in the church. I told him they were all apostate. He chuckled and said someone like me needed to be in Church, and told me how a fire burns out if left to itself. Well, I went to the next Service and Sunday School. I was amazed. I heard the Gospel clearly preached in all its Law and Gospel glory!

But I also heard people in the church talking about baptismal regeneration. I stormed into the Pastors office with 3 pages of verses that I had written to show that Jesus saves, not baptism. After I made my presentation, he looked up at me and said, "You're right Tim" He said this was a growing church and there were a variety of people from diverse backgrounds. He then said, "Well, this is a Disciples of Christ Church , and Jesus said make disciples of them. I will disciple you myself"

I'm probably the only person that the Pastor bought a breakfast for every week. (I think it was refreshing for him. People try to buy his favor therefore winning points with God) We would talk about what the Bible said, current events, life, the universe, and everything. He had me read Augustine and many other theological books. (Yes, it was love at first read.) That man who put his arm around me was an Elder in the Church. Six month later he died. He made me a pallbearer at his funeral. The pastor gave me his class to teach. (By this time, I had debunked the false teachings where ever I heard them). My Calvinism was emerging in those days too. The pastor believed that in the final analysis that it was our will that turned to God. But he challenged me to to follow the Bible where it lead. I once asked him, "When I'm teaching my class, what if questions about Calvinism come up? What should I do, because I know its different that what you believe?" He told me to teach what I know, because I won't teach anything contrary to what scripture says. NBX

Because of him, I learned all about the inner workings of a church, became a deacon (because of people that wanted the title, but didn't want to do the work. They drafted me), preached a sermon, performed religious ceremonies that the Catholic Church stood up, (a quinceanera for a girl in an iron lung), had discussions with the older ladies about the evils of decaf coffee, and many more things that I don't have the time to write about.

Yet, this was a Disciples of Christ church. The pastor took the bible seriously and viewed it as the word of God. It was conservative by anybody's standards, but arminian. I learned not to judge a local Church by what the national people were saying and doing. And without this experience, I wouldn't be able to do the things I get to do today.

I ended up moving back home, leaving Texas for Illinois. The liberal wasteland that it is. A PCUSA conservative church became my new home. At least at first, then came the projector screen and modern praise songs. I felt that God had moved me here to learn more about Church's and how they run, and the consequences of what ought not to be done. There are battles in the church for doctrine. I get to teach, so I get to teach them what the Bible says. Not a Sunday School Class on the 154 Steps to a Better Prayer of Jabez in 40 Days.

I say all this to add my 2 cents to the discussion. Even God can use an Arminian Church to further His ends. And each case is different. Because each week in the DoC church, I heard the gospel clearly presented. I think in my current church, I've only heard it once or twice. I'm not endorsing Arminians, but want to add something to this topic. Liberals are my mortal enemy (A little Dungeon's and Dragon's lingo thrown in, just to keep it interesting), and Barthians their handmaiden. Just so you know where I stand.

I thank the Lord everyday for calling me out of darkness and placing me into His marvelous kingdom.

 

[jaybird0827]

Grymir: Thank you for that testimony. God is good.

 

[kalawine]

Well, hello Mr. kalawine. Nice to see you made it.

and

See here:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f20/welcome-pb-forum-retitled-introduce-yourself-27677/

Thanks man! Can you believe that I just got this one?