Sciptural Warrant for Women teaching Women? (Thread split)

Status
Not open for further replies.
The paper Josh linked to above from Rev. Ruddell is pure gold and I am sobered. It’s nothing I didn’t ‘know’… but the online nature of conversations can lead one on.

“These are just a few of the Scriptures that we reference when we think on the mutual edification that is commanded to all the people of God. When we think on this, compare Scripture with Scripture, and when we look to our fathers in the faith as to what shape this mutual edification takes, it must first be said that this encouragement to private conversation and edification does not undo the rest of what we have already heard, such that in private conversation we ought to feel free to “teach” in the sense that the Lord has established in the offices of the Church. The Scripture has coupled authority and teaching together specifically, so that enforcement and requirement accompanies that teaching function, and responsibility, as seen above.

“As such then, in private conversation, we must retain a proper modesty, and knowledge of our station, so as to avoid becoming an unofficial officer, and speaking as if we had authority that does not pertain to us. A good illustration of this is how we would speak to our children, as opposed to how we might speak to another of equal station. These 5th commandment relations are quite clear in Scripture, and in our standards, so that there should be no question as to the propriety of this counsel.

“When we speak to one another privately, as equals, let us speak in a way that befits that station. In the case of our Pastor, think of the manner he might speak in a theological conversation with another Pastor, and compare that to the way he might preach his own understanding of a passage of Scripture in the context of a sermon, where the authority of the office is appropriately applied. Suppose that same Pastor is called before his Presbytery to give an answer for that view that he preached—we all acknowledge that his tone would be different as he gives an answer to those who are over him in authority. In this example, on the same Scripture teaching, he interacts with others as a superior, as an inferior, and as an equal. The differences and equality of station ought then to be evident in our conversations, whether online, in emails or other correspondence, and in our conversations in groups or one-on-one.

“When pursuing a conversation on a public social media site, keep these things in mind, along with the other warnings given at the beginning of this letter. Speak modestly, in a conciliatory fashion, avoid pontification, and please remember the inherent difficulties of that venue, and the liability to be heard wrongly, or to hear wrongly.

“Do not use such venues as a pulpit for your own views, or a debate platform. One way to avoid this is to quote our standards, point to our Pastor’s sermons, other books, articles, writings, etc. that can be read apart from confrontation, considered, and pursued in more private discussion. Slow it down, consider your place, and the places of others in your conversations, and at all times, speaking as equals, remember that the folks you’re discussing these things with have Elders and Pastors, parents and husbands over them, and that they will give answer for those under their charge.

“Send them to their sessions for the resolutions of their cases of conscience or other questions. Do not be hesitant to ask a wife if she has spoken with her husband about this matter—you will be reminding her of her 5thcommandment responsibility before the Lord, and helping her to uprightness in that responsibility.”

 
Outside of discussing the formal worship Services, I have been thoroughly reprimanded for my thinking by wonderful godly women several times. We are all believers and we all have mature and not so mature relationships. I especially appreciate those relationships who are not intimidated by me and will challenge me in my walk. I have had many mothers and sisters I have grown up with. Come on guys. Your Sisters never challenged you nor loved you enough to brow beat you as only a Sister could?

Let's play out the roles. How about putting women in Administrative Roles? Are they not authoritative in a sense? What other jobs and school classes should we worry about? Are women allowed to be supervisors or teachers of men in life?

Just a note, this is a cultural problem as in the last half of this Century roles have changed. Women even want to join combat military service as a common thing. That is not normal.
 
Last edited:
Just to filter opinions:

Anyone have objections to an older lady having private bible studies with a younger female teenage believer whose parents are unbelievers?
 
I just think slippery slopes are a real thing. I think our perceptions easily stray from God’s eternal intent. Men are getting weaker, less disciplined and less accountable to God. Those voids are being filled in all sorts of ways. At worst we are tyrants and abusers…. and then things really get turned upside down. None of those things are excuses for breaking from scripture. But if I think about it, I’d rather defer to the ordained and appointed on these matters. Let the seasoned servants share their knowledge and experience. I believe men like Victor (and others here, as well as those quoted and sourced) are proven and trustworthy on these matters. So, thank you!
 
Anthony-

In a rush but wanted to respond "I wouldn’t mind hearing the women on this board explain why they have no desire to be church elders and official propounders of the gospel."

I've pondered this broader subject a thousand times. Why would a woman, married, whose husband wants children, tell him she does not want kids ( PCA staff hubby)? Why would a PCA Pastor's wife with beautiful little toddlers announce she doesn't want to be home but wants an adult career? I'm not picking on the PCA, but its where I have the most confessional experience.

Why does a pretty unsaved woman decide to chop off body parts and become a man? Why is social media infected with "gay Christians" who announce their perverted identity even if celibate? Why these perverted and twisted desires? What makes a man want to do it with a five year old girl? My husband said he has experienced sinful but natural lust when a certain type of girl walks by parading herself, but he never, ever, has imagined the twistedness of pedophilia. It is revolting and infuriating to him when he hears of it. Why do some guys twist internally so badly with that, including church leaders?

I never wanted to be a pastor or elder or preacher. Is that just grace? Why would a women fall into a twisted desire not natural to her femininity?

Is it the amil end of days when Satan is unloosed? Is it unclean spirits flooding the world? A spirit of rebellion? The way people grew up? Not loving the truth and being given over to delusion? Childhood trauma for the more twisted things? Chemicals and hormones in the food and air and water affecting the brain and demasculizing men? The church failing in some way, or ways? Lack of prayer and fasting? Ignoring the command to wear headcoverings? Worshipping the creation instead of God? Failing to give thanks and be grateful?

I don't know. Its tough living in the world. Its really tough for me to interact with women who have an unnatural bent in their soul. One christian woman I care about, with significant trauma, just went lesbian. I find myself trying to figure this stuff out in my mind but feel like I have no clarity and no real wisdom.

I can't answer, maybe somebody else will.
 
Anthony-

In a rush but wanted to respond "I wouldn’t mind hearing the women on this board explain why they have no desire to be church elders and official propounders of the gospel."

I've pondered this broader subject a thousand times. Why would a woman, married, whose husband wants children, tell him she does not want kids ( PCA staff hubby)? Why would a PCA Pastor's wife with beautiful little toddlers announce she doesn't want to be home but wants an adult career? I'm not picking on the PCA, but its where I have the most confessional experience.

Why does a pretty unsaved woman decide to chop off body parts and become a man? Why is social media infected with "gay Christians" who announce their perverted identity even if celibate? Why these perverted and twisted desires? What makes a man want to do it with a five year old girl? My husband said he has experienced sinful but natural lust when a certain type of girl walks by parading herself, but he never, ever, has imagined the twistedness of pedophilia. It is revolting and infuriating to him when he hears of it. Why do some guys twist internally so badly with that, including church leaders?

I never wanted to be a pastor or elder or preacher. Is that just grace? Why would a women fall into a twisted desire not natural to her femininity?

Is it the amil end of days when Satan is unloosed? Is it unclean spirits flooding the world? A spirit of rebellion? The way people grew up? Not loving the truth and being given over to delusion? Childhood trauma for the more twisted things? Chemicals and hormones in the food and air and water affecting the brain and demasculizing men? The church failing in some way, or ways? Lack of prayer and fasting? Ignoring the command to wear headcoverings? Worshipping the creation instead of God? Failing to give thanks and be grateful?

I don't know. Its tough living in the world. Its really tough for me to interact with women who have an unnatural bent in their soul. One christian woman I care about, with significant trauma, just went lesbian. I find myself trying to figure this stuff out in my mind but feel like I have no clarity and no real wisdom.

I can't answer, maybe somebody else will.
I used to blog. I was building a little bit of a following online and social media. I was getting some kind of fix from it. It probably felt like what those in the heat of the online battle felt. That only I can do what needs to be done for the preservation of this truth or the extinguishing of this sin from the church. I’m going to write a book about it or start a Facebook group to combat the lies and expose the wolves…. Eventually, I’m obsessed, and I can’t slow down. I’m pulpit and pen. And now I’m squandering my gifts. Or I’m a gay celibate Christian or an orthodox female church leader. Some specialized category of Christian and I’m fighting for those who have been scorned and disenfranchised. Are we bored with Jesus? That’s when we either get shaken down or go further south…..

I’m still recovering from my shakedown thankfully.
 
Outside of discussing the formal worship Services, I have been thoroughly reprimanded for my thinking by wonderful godly women several times. We are all believers and we all have mature and not so mature relationships. I especially appreciate those relationships who are not intimidated by me and will challenge me in my walk. I have had many mothers and sisters I have grown up with. Come on guys. Your Sisters never challenged you nor loved you enough to brow beat you as only a Sister could?

Let's play out the roles. How about putting women in Administrative Roles? Are they not authoritative in a sense? What other jobs and school classes should we worry about? Are women allowed to be supervisors or teachers of men in life?

Just a note, this is a cultural problem as in the last half of this Century roles have changed. Women even want to join combat military service as a common thing. That is not normal.
I have questions about a lot of this as well, regarding the natural role of women in authority over men in any context. But I keep coming back to the fact that in Biblical times, women masters were presumably in charge of male slaves, and the Scriptures are silent on it.
 
Within the context of formal church meetings the best to be teachers are the elders. I am fine with elders selecting a gifted male member to teach in bible lessons (outside of worship) to help assess his being a potential officer. I am fine with women helping teach the little children classes, if they exist. Often this setting involves material selected by a session and the teacher is not presenting any material not selected by the session.

I also have no issue with women-only bible studies/prayer times outside of the formal public worship settings, assuming the session oversees the material selected. Some of my best memories are the men’s studies over a meal or a men’s work day in the community or church. I imagine the relationships I have strengthened in that environment would be the same when the women get to come together to sharpen one another. The women in our church, at times, will also get together to do service projects for individuals or groups in need within the community or congregation.

Certainly this can be abused and should be canceled if the husbands are counting on this to be lazy to their requirement to wash their wives in the word (family worship). Admittedly family worship is likely neglected more now than ever before.

I think it also wise to know who the wise older ladies are in the congregation that can be called on by a session to assist with certain sticky personal situations that may involve single women, single mothers, and other potential sensitive topics involving women. This can also help to protect the integrity of officers and shield all parties from unnecessary temptations.

I think the above can be done without usurping the authority of the officer’s and/or husbands as they can still maintain oversight and accountability. Over the years this is how I have best been able to conclude in light of the scriptures already shared and trying to avoid putting scripture against scripture and recognizing gifted women who can assist in some way without usurping authority, such as Paul getting help from Phoebe. And yes it is a hard No for me on the question of women serving as elder or deacon.
 
Last edited:
There are different kinds of authorities, including that of age and gifts, requiring different levels or kinds of respect or submission. See standard expositions of the Catechism on the 5th commandment, like Thomas Boston. These different kinds of authorities are all subordinate to official authorities in a person's life.

Teaching is inherently authoritative and requires authority to truly be teaching. The sort of authority backing it up will determine to what extent it should be heeded and how it should be heeded.

There is a natural authority that parents have over their children, and to some extent by extension, adults over children. Men are leaders by nature and only men are leaders by certain offices, so it is good--for both men and women--to prefer their leadership and to nurture it, even in situations where a woman might just as well do for a role.

This is a lot of natural theology or musing on general principles. So far as Titus is concerned, the things to be taught are a) privately (no office is set up or platform is given for official instruction) and b) behavior, not doctrine. As for Timothy, I understand the teaching forbidden to women to be related to doctrinal and Scriptural things, so I see no problem in principle with a woman teaching math or some other sort of topic to men at a school or university.

Situations will have a variety of circumstances to evaluate and apply the various principles about authority. Given the rampant feminism today, there will be some things that might be lawful in themselves but not wise for a woman to do so as to prevent scandal, and in some situations, it might be especially important to encourage men to step up and lead as they ought.
 
Would you want to expound on this?
Granted I'm reading a bit into the silence here, but business-owners like Lydia presumably had male servants, as would have a number of women in the church. Wouldn't even the wife of the patriarch have had authority over the male slaves--and wouldn't this also have been the case in ancient Israel?

Let's go with ancient Israel, because I'm less certain about how it worked then. Maybe someone else knows more about the context here, but let's say a slave-owning ancient Israelite family lost the patriarch to a war, leaving the widow to run the household: would the slaves then transfer to someone else simply because a woman can't be in authority over a man?

I guess my point is the Bible never seems to address as a problem, to my knowledge.
 
When pursuing a conversation on a public social media site, keep these things in mind, along with the other warnings given at the beginning of this letter. Speak modestly, in a conciliatory fashion, avoid pontification, and please remember the inherent difficulties of that venue, and the liability to be heard wrongly, or to hear wrongly.

Loved that article. This is hard to remember and do online!
 
I have questions about a lot of this as well, regarding the natural role of women in authority over men in any context. But I keep coming back to the fact that in Biblical times, women masters were presumably in charge of male slaves, and the Scriptures are silent on it.
1Sa 25:19 KJV And she said unto her servants, Go on before me; behold, I come after you. But she told not her husband Nabal.

Not sure about "silent". These servants were also young men as the hebrew word "na'ar" signifies and as the verse shows, they were Abigails, not Nabals, because she was under no obligation to tell him.
 
1Sa 25:19 KJV And she said unto her servants, Go on before me; behold, I come after you. But she told not her husband Nabal.

Not sure about "silent". These servants were also young men as the hebrew word "na'ar" signifies and as the verse shows, they were Abigails, not Nabals, because she was under no obligation to tell him.
I meant "silent" in terms of offering correction. But good reference; hadn't thought of that one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top