Secretly taping church members

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Wait, we’re taking Pulpit and Pen and BTWN seriously now? But not when they talk about Rachel Denhollander’s questionable actions or statements for example? Or given their blatant dishonesty about Rosaria Butterfield? That honestly reeks to me like Unjust weights and measures.

If there’s a recording of a certain individual “repenting” on his own volition after slandering your ministry for a decent amount of time and refusing to provide any sort of information for accountability purposes who then goes back to slandering your ministry, if you don’t save any of that communication and publish it upon his continued slander (when it’s legal in your state) in an attempt to make the situation known to your members and other interested parties, I’d say you’re honestly being a little foolish. Who says that this person won’t go on to make up more serious slander?

I think we should take internet discernment ministries attacks on reputable ministries with a grain of salt. Especially if they have the reputation that P&P and BTWN have.
 
Wait, we’re taking Pulpit and Pen and BTWN seriously now?

Only insofar as they are saying things that are true. (Which I will begrudgingly admit they do from time to time).

Besides, I don't see anything in this thread that relies upon P&P / BTWN. The Ministry in question doesn't even remotely deny that they record confidential conversations with people that they counsel.

That's dirty pool and cult-like. Ironic, considering some of the focus of this ministry.
 
Wait, we’re taking Pulpit and Pen and BTWN seriously now? But not when they talk about Rachel Denhollander’s questionable actions or statements for example? Or given their blatant dishonesty about Rosaria Butterfield? That honestly reeks to me like Unjust weights and measures.

If there’s a recording of a certain individual “repenting” on his own volition after slandering your ministry for a decent amount of time and refusing to provide any sort of information for accountability purposes who then goes back to slandering your ministry, if you don’t save any of that communication and publish it upon his continued slander (when it’s legal in your state) in an attempt to make the situation known to your members and other interested parties, I’d say you’re honestly being a little foolish. Who says that this person won’t go on to make up more serious slander?

I think we should take internet discernment ministries attacks on reputable ministries with a grain of salt. Especially if they have the reputation that P&P and BTWN have.

The pastor in question admits to secretly taping conversations. It isn't just P&P and BTWN mentioning it. The pastor himself put out a defense video (of almost 3 hours) where he admits to taping the conversation (illegal in many states). The word slander often gets used to mean, "I disagree with you" by the way and is often a useless term wielded by those trying to get the theological high-ground. The pastor engaged in unethical and (in many states) illegal acts.

You seriously believe it's ok to secretly tape phone calls and play them before the church? I'll think twice before I ever talk to you.
 
The pastor in question admits to secretly taping conversations. It isn't just P&P and BTWN mentioning it. The pastor himself put out a defense video (of almost 3 hours) where he admits to taping the conversation (illegal in many states). The word slander often gets used to mean, "I disagree with you" by the way and is often a useless term wielded by those trying to get the theological high-ground. The pastor engaged in unethical and (in many states) illegal acts.

You seriously believe it's ok to secretly tape phone calls and play them before the church? I'll think twice before I ever talk to you.

If you’re engaged in multiple years of slander against me and then you publish an attack against me after supposed repentance with no accountability by an elder and refusing to provide such a mechanism to hash it out with elders as the scripture commands? Yeah. I would.
 
If you’re engaged in multiple years of slander against me and then you publish an attack against me after supposed repentance with no accountability by an elder and refusing to provide such a mechanism to hash it out with elders as the scripture commands? Yeah. I would.

Ok, I will mark and avoid you if you ever try to lead a church.
 
Ok, I will mark and avoid you if you ever try to lead a church.

Feel free to, that’s your prerogative. I won’t deny you help when you’re slandered by the same folks. Take care you’re not devoured.

I don’t think pastors owe anything to slanderers who run internet discernment sites who refuse to provide their eldership contact information when called to give an account in a biblical manner for speaking falsely. This board has a 9th Commandment statement for exactly that reason.
 
Feel free to, that’s your prerogative. I won’t deny you help when you’re slandered by the same folks. Take care you’re not devoured.

I don’t think pastors owe anything to slanderers who run internet discernment sites who refuse to provide their eldership contact information when called to give an account in a biblical manner for speaking falsely. This board has a 9th Commandment statement for a reason.

I have hate websites devoted to me in the country where I normally serve (I am a spy sent by the CIA to stir up dissent, they claim). I've traced their IPs to military bases and army leaders involved in illegal mining (hence their reason to oppose me, bc I have reported their illegal activities) and reported it to the media. So I am not against defending one's honor.

All discernment sites are not bad. They exist for a reason and some do their job poorly and some do their job well. Often the very pastors who vociferously oppose those discernment sites put out worse info than those very sites they condemn.

P and P has done a good job on several issues, and flubbed it on several others. You are throwing out the words slanderer and 9th commandment a lot, but again these labels are largely meaningless and an attempt to jockey for the theological high-ground. I see these men at Apologia as slandering others regularly as well (eg. one of their apologists often lumps TR text advocates in with KJV-Onlyism and does not honestly engage their arguments. That, too, is a form of slander). They've made polemics their main game, and so if they live by that sword they will die by that sword, especially when they engage in Muslims and atheists in the same manner as they engage other Christian brothers. They seem to go into the same attack-dog mode towards differing Christians as they do when they engage unbelievers, and this is distasteful.
 
P and P has done a good job on several issues, and flubbed it on several others. You are throwing out the words slanderer and 9th commandment a lot, but again these labels are largely meaningless and an attempt to jockey for the theological high-ground. I see these men at Apologia as slandering others regularly as well (eg. one of their apologists often lumps TR text advocates in with KJV-Onlyism and does not honestly engage their arguments. That, too, is a form of slander). They've made polemics their main game, and so if they live by that sword they will die by that sword, especially when they engage in Muslims and atheists in the same manner as they engage other Christian brothers. They seem to go into the same attack-dog mode towards differing Christians as they do when they engage unbelievers, and this is distasteful.
This does sound cult like. A little truth to blind the followers. Just saying. I consider P&P to be more like a market check out isle tabloid. Avoid them and lend them very little credence if any at all. There is no accountability and they should be ashamed. It appears they don't know how to blush at their wrong doing like the tabloids. So yeah, I agree with the slander and 9th commandment accusations. That should be something we should be bothered by.
 
I have hate websites devoted to me in the country where I normally serve (I am a spy sent by the CIA to stir up dissent, they claim). I've traced their IPs to military bases and army leaders involved in illegal mining (hence their reason to oppose me, bc I have reported their illegal activities) and reported it to the media. So I am not against defending one's honor.

All discernment sites are not bad. They exist for a reason and some do their job poorly and some do their job well. Often the very pastors who vociferously oppose those discernment sites put out worse info than those very sites they condemn.

P and P has done a good job on several issues, and flubbed it on several others. You are throwing out the words slanderer and 9th commandment a lot, but again these labels are largely meaningless and an attempt to jockey for the theological high-ground. I see these men at Apologia as slandering others regularly as well (eg. one of their apologists often lumps TR text advocates in with KJV-Onlyism and does not honestly engage their arguments. That, too, is a form of slander). They've made polemics their main game, and so if they live by that sword they will die by that sword, especially when they engage in Muslims and atheists in the same manner as they engage other Christian brothers.

With love brother Perg,
P and P and BTWN seriously slander these people in a serious way that blatantly violates the Standards guidance on the 9C. It isn’t a mere theological dispute.

They’ve attacked said well known apologist and elder personally by mockery, reviling his daughter, and in other flat out unconscionable ways after he defended Rosaria Butterfield from their outright misrepresentation.

They’ve lied about his outreaches to Muslims. They’ve lied about said church having a “tattoo and beer” fundraiser and spread it to a news outlet. Said BTWN commentator at issue openly admitted that he slandered this group out of jealousy.

They hired PI’s to follow said apologists producer to dig up dirt reportedly.

All of this from supposed Christian brothers. Who refuse to be corrected in these ungodly acts.

Yet we’re supposed to take all these facts and throw them out the window because *gasp* they recorded slanderers who refused to be biblically confronted and then had the gall to defend themselves on their platforms?

I don’t buy it.

I don’t oppose discernment sites per say. Some do it well. But this group? Not so much.
 
With love brother Perg,
P and P and BTWN seriously slander these people in a serious way that blatantly violates the Standards guidance on the 9C. It isn’t a mere theological dispute.

They’ve attacked said well known apologist and elder personally by mockery, reviling his daughter, and in other flat out unconscionable ways after he defended Rosaria Butterfield from their outright misrepresentation.

They’ve lied about his outreaches to Muslims. They’ve lied about said church having a “tattoo and beer” fundraiser and spread it to a news outlet. Said BTWN commentator at issue openly admitted that he slandered this group out of jealousy.

They hired PI’s to follow said apologists producer to dig up dirt reportedly.

All of this from supposed Christian brothers. Who refuse to be corrected in these ungodly acts.

Yet we’re supposed to take all these facts and throw them out the window because *gasp* they recorded slanderers who refused to be biblically confronted and then had the gall to defend themselves on their platforms?

I don’t buy it.

I don’t oppose discernment sites per say. Some do it well. But this group? Not so much.

Apologia has admitted to secretly taping their members. Despite your dislike for P and P, Apologia themselves have admitted the practice, and have played back the taped phone conversation on youtube. NO matter if P&P has a vendetta against the man or not, an unethical practice was committed, and that on more than one occasion.
 
Pergy, I just think we should be careful to make sure there isn't a double standard here and that we should require P&P to be on the up and up also. Especially if we are going to refer to them. Call them out too. I am uncomfortable with the PB becoming a checkout isle tabloid looking Forum on the internet without any accountability for what is posted here.
 
With love brother Perg,
P and P and BTWN seriously slander these people in a serious way that blatantly violates the Standards guidance on the 9C. It isn’t a mere theological dispute.

They’ve attacked said well known apologist and elder personally by mockery, reviling his daughter, and in other flat out unconscionable ways after he defended Rosaria Butterfield from their outright misrepresentation.

They’ve lied about his outreaches to Muslims. They’ve lied about said church having a “tattoo and beer” fundraiser and spread it to a news outlet. Said BTWN commentator at issue openly admitted that he slandered this group out of jealousy.

They hired PI’s to follow said apologists producer to dig up dirt reportedly.

All of this from supposed Christian brothers. Who refuse to be corrected in these ungodly acts.

Yet we’re supposed to take all these facts and throw them out the window because *gasp* they recorded slanderers who refused to be biblically confronted and then had the gall to defend themselves on their platforms?

I don’t buy it.

I don’t oppose discernment sites per say. Some do it well. But this group? Not so much.

I get what you're saying about P&P and BTWN. You're dead on. Totally right.

But let's move on from the Apologia vs. P&P / BWTN issue.

Let's talk about the fact that Apologia has a practice of secretly recording confidential meetings with their own members.

Isn't THAT worthy of discussion apart from whatever merit you might see in Apologia defending themselves from BTWN?
 
Pergy, I just think we should be careful to make sure there isn't a double standard here and that we should require P&P to be on the up and up also. Especially if we are going to refer to them. Call them out too. I am uncomfortable with the PB becoming a checkout isle tabloid looking Forum on the internet without any accountability for what is posted here.

The issue is being deflected. See Sean's wise reply above to get the conversation back on course. Apologia themselves have admitted the practice. Let's talk about that. It seems a detestable and indefensible practice.
 
Durbin admits his unethical and (illegal in many states) actions here (the horse's mouth).




Facts he admits: 1. private phone conversations were secretly taped. 2. Those were released as punishment later during conflict. 3. Private info about 3rd persons were also released in the tape.

Things reported by others: (4) This practice has also occurred several times with Apologia church members. (5) Edited tape segments have been released to the church in a way that benefits/defends Durbin. (6) The church members were not informed they were being recorded.
 
Apologia has admitted to secretly taping their members. Despite your dislike for P and P, Apologia themselves have admitted the practice, and have played back the taped phone conversation on youtube. NO matter if P&P has a vendetta against the man or not, an unethical practice was committed, and that on more than one occasion.
I get what you're saying about P&P and BTWN. You're dead on. Totally right.

But let's move on from the Apologia vs. P&P / BWTN issue.

Let's talk about the fact that Apologia has a practice of secretly recording confidential meetings with their own members.

Isn't THAT worthy of discussion apart from whatever merit you might see in Apologia defending themselves from BTWN?

Let’s do a quick thought exercise. Say a young woman meets with two elders from Apologia church. Then says that they gang raped her and goes to the Phoenix news with this or even the Washington Post.

Would you still be against them recording their meetings? Without recordings what would you do? Especially in this time of #MeToo?

I also am not particularly moved if a confirmed slanderer, who makes a habit of slandering faithful men, who admitted his slander against a faithful ministry was motivated by his own hatred and jealousy is aghast that his conversations were posted publicly when he refused to be confronted biblically with elders about his blatant ongoing violation of the Decalogue. It’s manipulative and I don’t buy it.
 
Let’s do a quick thought exercise. Say a young woman meets with two elders from Apologia church. Then says that they gang raped her and goes to the Phoenix news with this or even the Washington Post.

Would you still be against them recording their meetings? Without recordings what would you do? Especially in this time of #MeToo?

In the year 2020 I would be astonished at two male ministers meeting a young woman alone without another neutral woman present.

Ministers secretly recording confidential meetings with church members is 100% sketchy.

I also am not particularly moved if a confirmed slanderer, who makes a habit of slandering faithful men, who admitted his slander against a faithful ministry was motivated by his own hatred and jealousy is aghast that his conversations were posted publicly when he refused to be confronted biblically with elders about his blatant ongoing violation of the Decalogue. It’s manipulative and I don’t buy it.

Literally don't care about the P&P / BWTN angle of this issue.
 
"Under the federal Wiretap Act, it is illegal for any person to secretly record an oral, telephonic, or electronic communication that other parties to the communication reasonably expect to be private. (18 U.S.C. § 2511.)"
 
Removing the specifics of this particular case (of which I have no interest in entertaining) and returning to the original question - there is no reason to record a meeting with a church member without their assent. It is the sort of thing even pagans are against. The Church ought to be better than that. It is a poor witness to the world.

We should not minister out of fear. Be wise about matters, yes - but do things in the light and in the open. If you want to let someone know that they are being recorded, that's fine and well if they consent, I suppose. But it will likely put most people on edge. If you are seeking to minister to someone, that doesn't seem right/healthy.

If you are worried, perhaps remind all parties that God is listening and interested in every word that is said before the meeting begins. We don't record any conversations in our church.
 
Literally don't care about the P&P / BWTN angle of this issue.
I understand. But as a Moderator and someone who cares about the board I feel obligated to make sure resources are good and have a level of good character. That is why this is the PB. I could link to all kinds of things to prove my points concerning R2K and other stuff. I don't because of the sources. I find reputable sources for my posts the best I can.
 
"Under the federal Wiretap Act, it is illegal for any person to secretly record an oral, telephonic, or electronic communication that other parties to the communication reasonably expect to be private. (18 U.S.C. § 2511.)"

That's not the end of the story, though.

(d)
It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for a person not acting under color of law to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication where such person is a party to the communication or where one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception unless such communication is intercepted for the purpose of committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of any State.
 
I understand. But as a Moderator and someone who cares about the board I feel obligated to make sure resources are good and have a level of good character. That is why this is the PB. I could link to all kinds of things to prove my points concerning R2K and other stuff. I don't because of the sources. I find reputable sources for my posts the best I can.

That's not my point. My point is that I am not interested in talking about the Apologia vs. P&P / BWTN saga. I am interested in talking about the propriety of Shepherds secretly recording conversations with their own sheep.
 
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That's not the end of the story, though.

(d)
It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for a person not acting under color of law to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication where such person is a party to the communication or where one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception unless such communication is intercepted for the purpose of committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of any State.

Can you parse that out? What does that mean? Prior consent is mentioned. And criminal and tortious acts (whatever those are) are mentioned. Can you explain?
 
That's not my point. My point is that I am not interested in talking about the Apologia vs. P&P / BWTN sage. I am interested in talking about the propriety of Shephers secretly recording conversations with their own sheep.
Well, then find good references and resources. Yes, this is a terrible thing.
 
That's not my point. My point is that I am not interested in talking about the Apologia vs. P&P / BWTN sage. I am interested in talking about the propriety of Shephers secretly recording conversations with their own sheep.

This is why I tried not to name names in my OP, but to keep the subject general. If one church is doing this sort of thing, perhaps others are doing it as well. I'd like to talk about the general ethics of it, and if it happens more than in this isolated case?
 
Can you parse that out? What does that mean? Prior consent is mentioned. And criminal and tortious acts (whatever those are) are mentioned. Can you explain?

It means, in simple, that at the Federal level, it's NOT illegal for a person to record a conversation between themselves and another party.

This is also the law in the State of Arizona.

So, it's not illegal for the Pastors in question to record the private conversations they have, since the Pastor in question is a party to the conversation and gives consent to the recording.

I would argue that although legal, it is most certainly immoral and unethical.
 
In the year 2020 I would be astonished at two male ministers meeting a young woman alone without another neutral woman present.

Ministers secretly recording confidential meetings with church members is 100% sketchy.



Literally don't care about the P&P / BWTN angle of this issue.

Given the ministries Apologia is involved in, and the stances they have taken, do you really think pagan society and even the Survivor bloggers would judge a woman witness as reliable and accept Apologia’s version of events? I am not inclined to think so.

The people you mention who bring forth this testimony are not neutral either, they are members under discipline. I would say this colors their perspective a bit.
 
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