Self-defense

[steven-nemes]

I have, for the most part, never been one to enjoy physical altercations, nor have I ever really encouraged anyone to participate in them. I imagine if it came down to it, I probably would not fight a person back if they started one.

In my younger more impressionable days, I took the time to read a good majority of Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You (I never finished, probably a good thing) about nonresistance and nonviolence.

I have, for the most part, always taken Jesus' teaching about "turning the other cheek" to mean that it is not proper to return physical force with physical force; it seems to me that is what all the apostles did, with the exception of the incident in the garden to which Jesus replied, "Those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword."

I don't know what to think lately though. What are your thoughts?

 

[Hamalas]

I'd love to comment, but I've got to head off to my mixed-martial arts club.....

 

[steven-nemes]

I'd love to comment, but I've got to head off to my mixed-martial arts club.....

Boo! Boo!

 

[Jan Ziska]

It depends.

I believe the 6th Commandment requires us to preserve our lives where possible, and the lives of others.

Some rare situations might require the taking of one life to save the lives of more others.

Think of it this way: When someone assaults you, they are sinning against God and you. You are not doing them any favours by either letting them continue to assault you, or by 'upgrading' their sin from assault to murder.

 

[steven-nemes]

I don't know that the sixth commandment implies a responsibility to stop murder or preserve life at all--I can see that it requires of us that we not kill others, and therefore implicitly we have an imputed right to life, but is there a right to defend yourself or others?

Some rare situations might require the taking of one life to save the lives of more others.

I am not sure I want to get into the debate of whether or not it is proper to break one of the commandments at any point in time, although I guess this is where the discussion is going to lead.

 

[larryjf]

If it is legal for you to defend yourself then it is not a sin (eg: Esther making it legal for the Jews to defend themselves, and them doing so).

The defense should be in the same degree as the assault to some extent. In other words you would not want to shoot someone who pushes you.

 

[Confessor]

Some rare situations might require the taking of one life to save the lives of more others.

I am not sure I want to get into the debate of whether or not it is proper to break one of the commandments at any point in time, although I guess this is where the discussion is going to lead.

It never is. One of those rare situations would be killing a person who plans to kill thousands of people. In other words, it's not considered murder, and therefore the sixth commandment remains unbroken, if I were to kill someone who I had good reason to believe was going to murder others.

There can certainly be things that look like breaking the commandments (e.g. lying to the Nazis at your door), but those are still not actual commandment-breakings (e.g. it is not lying to withhold or distort a truth which an evildoer does not deserve to know).

So, basically, while there may be some abstruse or otherwise hard-to-define intricacies of the commandments, it is never permissible to break them. Ever. The only time it may seem so is because of a misunderstanding of the commandments.

 

[larryjf]

One of those rare situations would be killing a person who plans to kill thousands of people. In other words, it's not considered murder, and therefore the sixth commandment remains unbroken, if I were to kill someone who I had good reason to believe was going to murder others.

I would suggest that you would be committing murder given the above circumstance.
To take someone's life in defending another life there must be an immediate threat. Having good reason to believe someone is going to commit murder is not the same as an immediate threat.

 

[Jan Ziska]

Look at other commandments. A person should not dress immodestly, else they tempt or help someone to break the 7th commandment.

We shouldn't flaunt our wealth ostentatiously, to tempt people on the 8th & 10th.

So yeah, I think the positive side of the 6th commandment is a requirement to preserve human life where possible, just as the positive side of the 8th is to work hard, the 7th to love your spose etc etc.

-----Added 1/17/2009 at 05:12:26 EST-----

In other words, it's not considered murder, and therefore the sixth commandment remains unbroken, if I were to kill someone who I had good reason to believe was going to murder others.

I would modify that statement with 'and there was no other possible way to stop them.'

I believe there are biblical examples of actions which looked like sins being used by believers for the good.

For example, Rahab's lying to the soldiers about the spies. Or Gideon's use of deception (ie, lying) to fool the enemy.

The self-defense issue also needs to take into account the relevant civil law. Applying a form of self defence that might be ethical or moral might still be illegal (in civil law).

 

[SemperEruditio]

I studied Contemporary Fighting Arts by Sammy Franco. I believe that we need to know how to protect ourselves even before an altercation resorts to violence. Many times if you are aware you can avoid most encounters. If you cannot then you have to be prepared to defend yourself, the ones you love, or those not capable of defending themselves.

 

[steven-nemes]

What, then, of Christ's teaching? What is your interpretation?

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

Christ instructed his apostles to take swords with them when they went out to spread the gospel.

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:35-36)

-----Added 1/17/2009 at 06:11:23 EST-----

Now a sword is unlike other weapons in that it is a weapon and nothing else. A spear or a bow and arrow can be used for hunting. A knife can be used for cutting bread or meat. A sword however is only used to kill other people.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Lots of threads on this.

Did you ever notice all the stories of Roman soldiers, including the first Gentile convert? Kind of odd that salvation would come to the home of someone in the military profession if pacifism is the message of the NT.

I also think a reading of the NT as if it teaches pacifism is essentially a dispensational view of the Scriptures or, worse, that God's disposition toward self-defense changes.

 

[Rangerus]

Good timing on this topic. This touches on the topic for my class tomorrow which is about "Sanctity of Human Life". The background passages are Exodus 20:13; 21:22-25; 22:21-24, Deuteronomy 24:17-22; Matthew 5:21-26; and Luke 20:47.

The Biblical Truth we are studying is God has assigned the highest value to human life and calls for us to protect it.

However, knowing the men in my class, their character and make up, inevitably the question will be asked about self defense as well as what the Bible has to say about it.

Here are the verses and comments from John Gill I plan to use to answer those questions:

If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, (Exodus 22:2 ESV)

Now there was no blacksmith to be found throughout all the land of Israel, for the Philistines said, "Lest the Hebrews make themselves swords or spears." But every one of the Israelites went down to the Philistines to sharpen his plowshare, his mattock, his axe, or his sickle, (1 Samuel 13:19-20 ESV)

And David said to his men, "Every man strap on his sword!" And every man of them strapped on his sword. David also strapped on his sword. And about four hundred men went up after David, while two hundred remained with the baggage. (1 Samuel 25:13 ESV)

Of David. Blessed be the LORD, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle; (Psalms 144:1 ESV)

God is a man of war himself; and he teaches the art of war, as he does husbandry and other things; see Exo_15:3; and so the Lord furnishes his people, who are here in a militant state, with spiritual armour, to fight against their spiritual enemies; he teaches them how to put it on, and directs them how to make use of every piece of it; as well as gives them boldness to face their enemies, and victory over them. John Gill

He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. (Luke 22:36 ESV)

Jesus words were mighty;

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34 ESV)

By the "sword" may be meant the Gospel, which is the means of dividing and separating the people of Christ from the men of the world, and from their principles and practices, and one relation from another; as also of divisions, discords, and persecutions arising from it: not that it was the intention and design of Christ, in coming into the world, to foment and encourage such things; but this, through the malice and wickedness of men, was eventually the effect and consequence of his coming; see Luk_12:51 where, instead of a "sword", it is "division"; because the sword divides asunder, as does the sword of the Spirit, the word of God. John Gill

Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me. (Nehemiah 4:17-18 ESV)

Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears; let the weak say, "I am a warrior." (Joel 3:10 ESV)

let the weak say, I am strong; such as are weak, through sickness, or old age, let them not plead their weakness to excuse them from engaging in this war; but let them make the best of themselves, and say they are strong and healthy, and fit for it, and enter in it with all courage and bravery: this is said either ironically to the enemies of God's people, suggesting that all hands would be wanted, and should be employed, weak and strong, and all little enough; when they had made the utmost effort they could, it would be in vain: or else they are seriously spoken to the people of God, that none of them should excuse themselves, or be discouraged because of their weakness from engaging in this last and more battle; but take heart, and be of good courage, and quit themselves like men, and be strong, since they might be sure of victory beforehand. The Apostle Paul refers to this text in 2Co_12:10; and applies it to spiritual weakness and strength; and indeed the weakest believer, that is so in faith and knowledge, may say he is strong, in comparison of what he once was, and others are; strong, not in himself, but in Christ, and the power of his might, and in the grace that is in him; nor should he excuse himself from fighting the Lord's battles, against sin, Satan, and the world, and false teachers; or from doing the Lord's work, any service he calls him to; or from bearing the cross he lays on him on account of his weakness; nor should he: be discouraged by it from those things; but let him strengthen himself, as Aben Ezra interprets it, take heart, and be of good courage. John Gill

Jesus clearly taught that we should never be retaliatory, or vengeful, (Matthew 5:38-39), but none the less, we are to be "wise as serpents and innocent as doves." We are to care and protect the weak, the widows, and the fatherless.

 

[Hamalas]

I don't know that the sixth commandment implies a responsibility to stop murder or preserve life at all--I can see that it requires of us that we not kill others, and therefore implicitly we have an imputed right to life, but is there a right to defend yourself or others?

I would say that there is. A couple of quick observations. I would suggest doing a word search on protect, defend, vindicate, etc..... Such a study will quickly show that while God is our ultimate and only real source of protection, he often uses his people to protect the weak and defend the innocent. Moses, David, the Jews in Esther's time, the list goes on and on. Also how can any of us really hope to care for our wives and children without being willing to physically intercede on their behalf? I do agree that, especially in America, we can become far too focused on defending our rights. We should be far more willing to let others wrong us. However, we not only have the right we have the sovereign responsibility to defend those under our care. Would you disagree? Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Confessor]

To take someone's life in defending another life there must be an immediate threat. Having good reason to believe someone is going to commit murder is not the same as an immediate threat.

How are they different? When I say that I have good reason to believe someone is going to murder another, and as added above, that killing the potential murderer is the only way to prevent his murder, what I mean is that I know that he is going to kill another. It's essentially the same an immediate threat, although perhaps I should have used different terminology to highlight what I was trying to convey.