Self-Love - is it ever ok?

[panta dokimazete]

Ok, call me a glutton for punishment, but I am still interested in exploring the concept of appropriate self-love and I am hoping we can reason together using a foundational Scripture as a springboard to examine the veracity of this proposition.

I am absolutely aware that this is a controversial subject, prone to misunderstanding and preconceived bias, but I am convinced that Scripture can be plumbed and a reasonable conclusion derived of "good and necessary consequence".

Now, I am not a trained logician nor a student of the science of logic, but I
believe that reason is a gift from God and is a substantiating element (among
many, many others) for the proof of God's existence, so I think it is appropriate to employ this gift to seek His truth.

I am also not a trained exegete, but I approach Scripture with fear and trembling and a regenerate seeker's desire to understand the mind of Christ and the logic of God.

With that being said, let's look at Christ's response to the questioning of the Pharisees in Matthew 22:

34But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they
gathered themselves together.

35One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,

36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

37And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

38"This is the great and foremost commandment.

39"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Look at vs. 39 - YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

There seems to be a hidden premise in this statement:

All people love themselves or all people have self-love

I would like to explore this hidden premise a bit.

If all people love themselves, does that mean the love that people feel for
themselves is always appropriate and appropriately expressed? Even a cursory
examination of Scripture will lead to the inevitable conclusion - "NO".

So, if there are inappropriate expressions of self-love, are there any examples
of appropriately expressed self-love?

Look at Luke 10:

30Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead.

31"And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32"Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

33"But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,

34and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.

35"On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'

36"Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"

37And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."

If we take the hidden premise "All people have self-love" and apply it to this situation - which person expresses appropriate self-love?

Obviously, it is the Samaritan - but what makes this expression of self-love appropriate?

Do you agree that there is appropriate and inappropriate self-love or is self-love some neutral and given assumption with no additional derivable conclusions?

Thanks for your thoughtful and considerate responses.

 

[etexas]

I have never been able to "define" a Biblical love of self, the Bible says to love my neighbor as myself....so if I were some lunatic and starved myself and poked myself with glass, I am not sure how I could ever express true love in my community: That said, it is a good question, I would love to hear a PB wise-one expound on the issue.

 

[shackleton]

Maybe I can put this here now since it seems to have gotten lost in the previous thread.

Question: Are you saying in the original post that as we love God more we love ourselves in a more godly way and we should then seek to love others in that same godly way we have come to love ourselves?

Note: I always took this verse to mean that, we already love ourselves in that our main goal in life is self-preservation by way of food, clothes, shelter, water etc. and we should then seek to love others in this way. I guess one could say that we should seek to do these things for others, put their primary needs above our own and in this way we are loving God the way he has commanded since Jesus states, after listing some ways that one would show love to Christ,

Matthew 25:31-46
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,£ you did it to me.’
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(ESV)

Just thinking

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I am not so sure that self love in these passages is lifted up as a good thing. It is set up to show that we need to care for others as much as we care selfishly for ourselves.

I think this passage is a reflection of what is being said in the passages you site.

(Php 2:3) Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

(Php 2:4) Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

It is a given that we love ourselves above all things. Even in suicide and self punishment we are trying to make up for our inadequacy's. Relieving the supposed pain by self affliction or escaping it all by death.

Self love is deceptive.

 

[Pilgrim]

JD is it possible you are getting at the idea of dignity? If so I don't think that this passage is really applicable because as Randy states, that's not what's in view, in my opinion.

 

[Sonoftheday]

Look at vs. 39 - YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

There seems to be a hidden premise in this statement:

All people love themselves or all people have self-love

in my opinion this premise is not necessarily in the text but rather read into it.
Another possible premise for the statement is;
Love your neighbor and yourself because God commands it/finds it pleasing/recieves glory through this Love.
The Command is to love our neighbor the same way we love ourselves, but it does not say the same way we instinctly love ourselves.

Certaintly there is a self-love that is idolatry, and I assume this is the inappropriate self-love mentioned. An appropriate self-love would then have to be found only in the love of ourselves as God's creature created in His image, and as a member of His eternal Covenant. This would logically be the case because we are commanded to Love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength i.e. All of our love. All of Adam's offspring naturally create idols of themselves and the first great commandment totally destroys the idea that kind of self-love is good. The second is like it as it is about Love, but it is also like it because the love of self as well as thy neighbor should be because it is based in our Love for God.

I do not view this passage as much about the self preserverving love of self that is apparent in all beings, but the love of self that can only be understood by the regenerate heart of one in covenant with God. Our Love for ourselves that is based on who we are as God's creation, made in His image, and as His covenant people chosen out all those made in His image. This would also explain the bibles greater emphasis placed on our Love for fellow believers than those not under the covenant of Grace.

 

[timmopussycat]

I have never been able to "define" a Biblical love of self, the Bible says to love my neighbor as myself....so if I were some lunatic and starver myself and poked myself with glass, I am not sure how I could ever express true love in my community: That said, it is a god question, I would love to hear a PB wise-one expound on the issue.

For what it's worth here's my attempt at a biblical definition of legitimate self love.

Doing unto ourselves as we would have others doing (and be biblically justified in so doing) unto us.

 

[Herald]

There is never a positive command in scripture to love oneself. I will argue that Matthew 22 is not an endorsement of self-love. If anything it is an acknowledgment that self-love is a negative, indeed, sinful. In absence of any positive command to love self, what positive commands does scripture present regarding love? Here is one to consider:

1 John 4:7-21 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

We are commanded to, “love one another.” Why? “…for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.” Nowhere in this passage does John try to borrow, as an example, the positive aspects of loving self. He doesn’t say, “In the same way that you love yourself, love others, just as Christ loves you.”

In this passage John writes, “God is love.” This is one of God’s holy, eternal and immutable attributes. It is ascribed only to God. Scripture never says, “Man is love” or, “Christians are love.” We love because He first loved us. Consider:

Ephesians 2:4-7 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

We were dead in sin. According to Ephesians 2:2 we were under the dominion of the “prince of the power of the air.” We were children of wrath (2:3). We did not possess love, for love is from God. We were dead and devoid of any “divine spark.” For me (and for you too my friend), the two greatest words in the bible declared the payment of our ransom, “But God!” It was at this point our justification was accomplished, through Christ, and we embarked on our journey of sanctification. For the first time we knew love. It was the first time that we were able to love. Again, this is so because love is from God. What passed for love prior to our salvation was a disposition to care, nurture or appreciate. What passed for love was an emotional response, part of our God-given image but corrupted and flawed; warped by the fall.

Back to Matthew 22:39 for a moment. I think a case can be made that Jesus was saying something to the effect of, “To the same degree that you care about yourself, care for others.” I believe Paul was in agreement on this point when he wrote:

Philippians 2:3-7 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Verse 4 is where I want you to look. “do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.” Paul then introduces the kenosis, or self-emptying, of Jesus.

 

[MW]

Christ's command tells us to do something with respect to self-love, that is, to love our neighbour as ourselves. The very point of the command is to deflect thought from self onto others. As soon as self-love is considered as its own virtue it ipso facto breaks Christ's command.

 

[Pergamum]

nothing here...move along

 

[Sonoftheday]

I think with self-love being a phrase with a lot of connotative meaning but lacking a universal denotative meaning this poll is going to recieve many different votes from people believing the same thing.

 

[Hippo]

My humble is that the very fact that this question is being asked is deeply shameful.

 

[DMcFadden]

Forgive me if this has come up in discussion already. In an article in the Reformed Journal 30 years ago, John Piper differentiated two forms of self love:

"First, a person can be said to love himself if he is devoted to his own interest. You love yourself in this sense if you desire and strive for your own happiness. It follows from what I said above that all people love themselves in this sense. Since happiness is the fulfillment of one's desires, and all people desire, therefore all people long to be happy.”

He also defined self-love in a second way as well:

“There is a second way to define self-love. This is a more frequent usage today: self-love is taken to mean the sense of self-esteem one feels when he looks at his appearance, personal habits, morals, and achievements and likes what he sees. Here self-love is not the desire to become happy by bringing into actuality your values; rather, it is the pleasure you have in looking at the values you have already actualized.”

Back in Christianity Today three decades ago ( August 12, 1977 to be exact), Piper wrote as a NT scholar, saying that Jesus referenced the first definition of love when he said:

"Love your neighbor as yourself." He did not command self-love; he assumed it and made it the measure of neighbor love: “As you would that men do to you, do so to them.” Similarly, Paul argued in Ephesians 5 that each husband should love his wife as himself (5:33), "for no man ever hates his own flesh but nourishes and cherishes it" (5:29). How radical Jesus' command is can be seen, therefore, from how deeply rooted self-love is in every man. No one is without it and so no one escapes the point of Jesus' command: one must be so transformed in what he values that to seek his own happiness and to love his neighbor are the same. That is indeed a radical commandment.

When we thus define self-love, the goal of the counselor cannot be conceived as building self-love. It is not the goal, but the presupposition of all counseling. People do not seek counseling help unless they have a desire to be better off than they are. This desire to be happier is what Jesus meant by self-love. Therefore, self-love, so defined, is the foundation, not the aim, of counseling; indeed, it is the foundation of all human life. For without it there is no motivation, and without motivation there is no action, and if we do not act we die.

 

[Pergamum]

Hippo: This too is a legitimate topic of enquiry.

 

[Herald]

I'm not doubting that people love themselves, I disagree that is a positive attribute of a Christian. I am convinced that is a negative, fed by selfishness and narcissism.

 

[MW]

Piper has left open the back door to self-esteem counselling by speaking of self-love as the foundation of counselling. But in saying this I understand I have a systemic difference with his view of the Christian life as one of glorifying God BY enjoying Him.

 

[DMcFadden]

Piper has left open the back door to self-esteem counselling by speaking of self-love as the foundation of counselling. But in saying this I understand I have a systemic difference with his view of the Christian life as one of glorifying God BY enjoying Him.

Piper went on to say:

In view of what I have said so far, what should be the goal of a Christian who is called on to counsel a troubled person? My thesis is that his goal is twofold: First, to be instrumental in transforming the person's values into the values of Christ, and second, to help him achieve those values. To use the biblical terms, the counselor aims to help a person love holiness and to be holy.

Matthew, I share some of your concerns about the way Piper conceives of "glorifying God BY enjoying HIM." My point was to cite his contention that the text so often cited in this thread does not mean what some of us seem to think it does. Piper's '77 CT article hit pretty hard on denying that Jesus EVER commands us to love ourselves, he leverages the reality of people's self interest to say that we ought to show that kind of passion for the love of our neighbor.

 

[panta dokimazete]

JD is it possible you are getting at the idea of dignity? If so I don't think that this passage is really applicable because as Randy states, that's not what's in view, in my opinion.

Chris - I don't believe that dignity is what is being expressed as the baseline. I think it is more than just dignity.

 

[MW]

Matthew, I share some of your concerns about the way Piper conceives of "glorifying God BY enjoying HIM." My point was to cite his contention that the text so often cited in this thread does not mean what some of us seem to think it does. Piper's '77 CT article hit pretty hard on denying that Jesus EVER commands us to love ourselves, he leverages the reality of people's self interest to say that we ought to show that kind of passion for the love of our neighbor.

I hope I didn't come across as undermining that point. Piper's contention is appreciated. But whenever he gets on to this idea of joy, pleasure, and self-interest as a conscious goal of the Chirstian life I can only shake my head in astonishment.

It might also be worth pointing out in the context of this thread that the Bible never addresses us as if we needed psychological healing in order to be responsible agents before God. We are considered as already possessing the psychological constitution which makes us accountable for what we think and do.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I'm not doubting that people love themselves, I disagree that is a positive attribute of a Christian. I am convinced that is a negative, fed by selfishness and narcissism.

Bill, not trying to be argumentative, but do you think that is that what Christ was saying?

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself - selfishly and narcissisticly."

 

[panta dokimazete]

I would contend that there are 2 types of self-love:

Unregenerate self-love (USL) or self-centered love

Regenerate self-love (RSL) or God-centered love

 

[Herald]

I'm not doubting that people love themselves, I disagree that is a positive attribute of a Christian. I am convinced that is a negative, fed by selfishness and narcissism.

Bill, not trying to be argumentative, but do you think that is that what Christ was saying?

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself - selfishly and narcissisticly."

You're misunderstanding me brother. I said that self-love is essentially selfish and narcissistic. If you go back to the post where I dealt with 1 John 4 you will see why I don't believe self-love is a positive command, or even a secondary condition.

Jesus was addressing the Pharisees who were seeking to trap him. He knew that they were diligent in taking care of themselves (c.f. Mark 7:11). In their self righteous piety they were guilty of this great commandment (Leviticus 19:18). The question they posed to Jesus was, "Teacher, which the great commandment in the Law?" He told them, even though, because most of them were dead in sin, they were incapable of loving their neighbor.

 

[Herald]

I would contend that there are 2 types of self-love:

Unregenerate self-love (USL) or self-centered love

Regenerate self-love (RSL) or God-centered love

JD,

I agree with your first premise. That is the selfishness and narcissism I was referring to.

God-centered love is just that, God-centered love. It is God centered because it originates with Him. We love Him because He first loved us. We don't love ourselves because He first loved us.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Exactly, Bill.

The unregenerate naturally love themselves with all their heart, souls and minds, so the command is applicable, yet condemning at the same time.

The regenerate supernaturally loves God with all their heart, souls and minds through the Holy Spirit.

God loves us, so we love God, so we love our neighbor as ourselves in a non-selfish way that is God-centered rather than self-centered.

A non-self-centered self-love.

A regenerated God-centered self-love.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Question: Did Jesus love his neighbor as He loved Himself?

 

[Herald]

God loves them, so they love God, so they love their neighbor as themselves in a non-selfish way that is God-centered rather than self-centered.

JD, this is where I depart with your logic. You're borrowing the phraseology of Matthew 22:39, written to corrupt Pharisees, and logically trying to conclude that, somehow, because God first loved them, that they now love themselves and are to love others the same way. All I see in scripture is that they are to "love one another." I'm not trying to be contrary or argue just for the sake of argument. I just don't see the self-love thing in the way you are describing it.

 

[MW]

A regenerated God-centered self-love.

This is a contradiction in terms because a regenerated God-centred love is not directed towards itself but towards others. It is the point of "object" which your language seems to be overlooking. Self-love has self as the object of the love. The point of the command is to make us look away from our own desires and interests.

 

[Herald]

Question: Did Jesus love his neighbor as He loved Himself?

Are you suggesting that Jesus loved Himself? For what purpose would He need to love Himself?

 

[toddpedlar]

I'm not doubting that people love themselves, I disagree that is a positive attribute of a Christian. I am convinced that is a negative, fed by selfishness and narcissism.

Bill, not trying to be argumentative, but do you think that is that what Christ was saying?

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself - selfishly and narcissisticly."

I'm very surprised this keeps coming up. Many, many people have tried saying the same thing many times, and it still seems to make no impact on your thinking on this, JD.

Jesus was NOT teaching some form of "self-love" in these verses. It's simply NOT the point he's trying to make.

What he is saying - again, I'm sorry if this sounds repetitive, but you seem not to acknowledge that your arguments are fatally flawed. You are eisgeting this text.

1) Love God with all of your being.

2) Love your neighbor like you naturally love yourself.

These are two commands - commands that we love our Father in Heaven, and that we love our brothers on earth.

We already, by nature, love ourselves. We put ourselves first. We do all we can to maximize our good.

ALL Christ is saying here is execute that love for others just as you do yourselves!

There's no evaluation here of good, bad, or ugly self love. The point is, as has been pointed out a dozen or more times, that Christ is trying to get us to look beyond ourselves - and realize that the energy we expend on satisfying our own needs and wants must be focused on others, too - that we are not to be lovers of SELF, but lovers of even our enemies. If you read the whole passage you'll see this.

What you will NOT find is some kind of teaching concerning good and bad "self-love" here. You simply can't assert its existence. It ain't there. You *might* be able to find such doctrine (I'd like to know where) elsewhere, but you certainly cannot (without inserting it into the text) find it here.

Please forgive me if I'm sounding a bit snippy here, but this is really getting quite repetitive.

 

[panta dokimazete]

It's ok Todd - repetition is key to learning. No need to get snippy - I am truly trying to pull out every iota of meaning from the Word of God. I am not inclined or willing to say or respond to - "it is what it is and that's it, so get over it and give up!", particularly when it does not seem to be - even though it makes me the target of anger and frustration from my brothers.

I am sorry you are frustrated, but as you point out, there is an implicit assumption of some sort of self-love - how that is defined or contextualized may seem plain to you or falls into in the arena of Deut. 29:29, but it seems to me as if there are relevant and useful areas to explore:

Does Christ equate all men's self-love similarly?

Is the sheep's love for themselves the same as the goats'?

Is the good and faithful servants' love for themselves the same as the wicked servants'?