Seminary Students on Food Stamps

[Southern Twang]

Apparently "rich" these days is being able to feed your family without government support. Nonsensical.

Why is it churches support missionaries and not also seminarians? That is the crux of the matter. Church support against government support. One is the legitimate, the other is not.

 

[JBaldwin]

This brings up, in my mind, a point brought up already. Where are the churches who sent this men to seminary? Or did they go off without church backing? If the church was more willing to support these men, there wouldn't be a question about food stamps. I am still bothered by the number of churches who send off men to seminary and then watch them starve.

 

[Andres]

This brings up, in my mind, a point brought up already. Where are the churches who sent this men to seminary? Or did they go off without church backing? If the church was more willing to support these men, there wouldn't be a question about food stamps. I am still bothered by the number of churches who send off men to seminary and then watch them starve.

Many have brought this point up, and while I agree that it certainly has merit, let us also consider the practicality of the the idea. What happens when the church from which the seminarian comes simply cannot afford to support him? I am the church treasurer and without gettting into too many details, there have been times when it was a struggle to keep the lights on and the pastor paid. There simply isn't always extra money available. I can tell you right now if a young man from our church wanted to go to seminary, our church would certainly be supportive in prayers, love, and encouragement, but as far as financial support goes, we couldn't support him with more than a couple hundred dollars a month, and that's a stretch. What would everyone suggest in this situation?

 

[torstar]

This brings up, in my mind, a point brought up already. Where are the churches who sent this men to seminary? Or did they go off without church backing? If the church was more willing to support these men, there wouldn't be a question about food stamps. I am still bothered by the number of churches who send off men to seminary and then watch them starve.

Many have brought this point up, and while I agree that it certainly has merit, let us also consider the practicality of the the idea. What happens when the church from which the seminarian comes simply cannot afford to support him? I am the church treasurer and without gettting into too many details, there have been times when it was a struggle to keep the lights on and the pastor paid. There simply isn't always extra money available. I can tell you right now if a young man from our church wanted to go to seminary, our church would certainly be supportive in prayers, love, and encouragement, but as far as financial support goes, we couldn't support him with more than a couple hundred dollars a month, and that's a stretch. What would everyone suggest in this situation?

The student would have to get out there and pitch himself and find sponsors.

 

[LawrenceU]

This brings up, in my mind, a point brought up already. Where are the churches who sent this men to seminary? Or did they go off without church backing? If the church was more willing to support these men, there wouldn't be a question about food stamps. I am still bothered by the number of churches who send off men to seminary and then watch them starve.

Many have brought this point up, and while I agree that it certainly has merit, let us also consider the practicality of the the idea. What happens when the church from which the seminarian comes simply cannot afford to support him? I am the church treasurer and without gettting into too many details, there have been times when it was a struggle to keep the lights on and the pastor paid. There simply isn't always extra money available. I can tell you right now if a young man from our church wanted to go to seminary, our church would certainly be supportive in prayers, love, and encouragement, but as far as financial support goes, we couldn't support him with more than a couple hundred dollars a month, and that's a stretch. What would everyone suggest in this situation?

This is a great example of just how out of line seminary costs have become. While I am not against brick and mortar seminaries the cost of obtaining a degree from some of them is out of line with what the average congregation can do and is out of line with the average minister's salary when graduated - even decades later for the vast majority. Real reform is needed in the area of ministerial education and training. Frankly, a lot of young men that I know are very ill prepared for pastoral ministry when they receive their MDiv, DMin, etc. from 'excellent' institutions. And, the young men are no slouches either. They have just been trained to be academicians and researchers rather than pastors.

 

[TomVols]

I don't disagree with much of what you said, Lawrence. However, I do take exception with the idea that the seminary education should somehow be seen in terms of financial return on investment. We cannot measure as the world does. The idea that a church may not be able to pay X, therefore, I should only spend Y on my education is faulty. We should be willing to sacrifice financially for God's glory and for the good of souls.

For the record, it can also be applied to Med students and law students who practice among the low-cost clinics or in legal aid societies. Or take the Vanderbilt-trained teacher who goes to work in Shelby Bottoms. Anyway, you get my point. However, I'm not opposed to reforming ministerial education, particularly how it's financed. It, too, has gone the way of the world in many respects.

 

[LawrenceU]

Tom, I didn't mean to imply that one should view it as a financial return on investment. Rather, men are often saddled with enormous debt that they will spend years paying down, damaging their ability to minister freely, adding stress in their marriages, and potentially causing them to view ministry in terms of dollars rather than service.

 

[Scottish Lass]

Sure it does, if you replace seminary with a pastor or preferably a group of local pastors in that person’s education. Therefore he is forced to leave the seminary if the funds and time are not there. If his church really thought he was called to seminary then something am sure would be worked in assisting the student, even if that means asking for associational help. This shows really where the church’s heart is at. No where in the bible is the MDIV a requirement for being a pastor

Except many churches/denominations all but require an M.Div. The ARP has a grandfather/exception rule, but the default, at least in most Presbyterian circles, is a formal degree. You may disagree, it may not be right, but that's what's needed to secure a call in most cases.

 

[smhbbag]

Tom, I didn't mean to imply that one should view it as a financial return on investment. Rather, men are often saddled with enormous debt that they will spend years paying down, damaging their ability to minister freely, adding stress in their marriages, and potentially causing them to view ministry in terms of dollars rather than service.

This factor is underestimated by far too many churches. There isn't much of a better start to honoring a minister than to help him take off his slave shackles.

 

[kvanlaan]

I haven't commented on this thread yet as I don't really have a dog in this fight (I am not a seminarian) but have been on this end of things as a family of seven making next to nothing in China. There was no such thing as food stamps there, though we always made it through the month. Here, we are subsidized in almost every way (find me a Canadian who says he is not in some way subsidized by the government and I will find you either a liar or the rarest man in the world). There are programs for everything and there are basically piles of money sitting there to be had for anyone willing to do the paperwork/interview with a socialworker. All you have to do is allow the government into your home, and you're good to go.

 

[TomVols]

Tom, I didn't mean to imply that one should view it as a financial return on investment. Rather, men are often saddled with enormous debt that they will spend years paying down, damaging their ability to minister freely, adding stress in their marriages, and potentially causing them to view ministry in terms of dollars rather than service.

1. You will get no argument from me that churches should be more helpful to their seminarians and their ministers financially. That helps on the front and back end. You'll also get no peep outta me in terms of seminaries and how they need to reform their financial ways in general.

2. However, your general premise can apply to all fields.

3. How men choose to view their debts and their financial status is in some measure up to them. I know a pastor whose salary package at his church is double what the median salary is for his county. Yet he feels he's starving to death and the church should be paying him more. Hard to say that we are too broke or stressed to minister when pastors I know in Mexico are living on $200 bucks a month.

All that said, I agree with your sentiments. The world at large, and our poor economy right now will do all it can to make ministers feel the pinch (not to mention some ungrateful churches with misguided priorities). Seminaries don't need to add to the problem. I think we'd agree there.

 

[seajayrice]

Can any theonomist dispute the goodness of food stamps for reformed seminarians?

 

[Edward]

I know a pastor whose salary package at his church is double what the median salary is for his county.

But how does it measure up against his congregation? And how much would it cost to replace him?

Yet he feels he's starving to death and the church should be paying him more.

Perhaps his elders should help him consider whether he's being called somewhere else.

 

[TomVols]

But how does it measure up against his congregation?

Median, to slightly above median.

And how much would it cost to replace him?

Same. Exactly what they pay him now.

Some churches fiddle with the dials, so to speak, but some positions pay what they pay. I know D.Min's in ministry who are earning 15k. Their churches pay what they pay. Secularly, it works the same way. I know MBA's who make mid 20s in their jobs because that's what the job pays.

Perhaps his elders should help him consider whether he's being called somewhere else.

For reasons too complex to get into here, let me just say this is not necessariliy true, nor would it solve the problem.