Seminary without bachelors before hand?

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charliejunfan

Puritan Board Senior
Gentlemen,

I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?:pilgrim:

Oh, and, did you attend other seminaries thereafter to get a Masters as opposed to just a seminary Bachelors degree? and if you hadn't gone through seminary twice to get up to a Masters would you have been nearly as successful?

I am asking because I am interested in trying to get into Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary without getting my bachelors prior. I desire to be a Pastor someday but I know that right now I am not ready considering the qualifications, therefore I would like to go so that I can possibly teach or write about theology.
 
Gentlemen,

I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?:pilgrim:

Oh, and, did you attend other seminaries thereafter to get a Masters as opposed to just a seminary Bachelors degree? and if you hadn't gone through seminary twice to get up to a Masters would you have been nearly as successful?

I am asking because I am interested in trying to get into Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary without getting my bachelors prior. I desire to be a Pastor someday but I know that right now I am not ready considering the qualifications, therefore I would like to go so that I can possibly teach or write about theology.

I have no college whatsoever and am currently in TNARS......free Reformed seminary check it out....
 
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Charlie,

First of all, the bachelors degree does not have to come from a secular college or university.

Second, while education is not the determining factor to discern a call, education is important. Reformed Christians have always desired an educated clergy/eldership.

Third, education is good if it trains the student to think. Get as much as you can.
 
I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite. :think: Maybe some credit life experience in related work.

I notice TNARS is a bit different. I regard a "seminary" as a graduate school. However, TNARS starts with Associates, followed by Bachelors, as prerequisites for Masters. Go get 'em.
 
Gentlemen,

I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?:pilgrim:

Oh, and, did you attend other seminaries thereafter to get a Masters as opposed to just a seminary Bachelors degree? and if you hadn't gone through seminary twice to get up to a Masters would you have been nearly as successful?

I am asking because I am interested in trying to get into Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary without getting my bachelors prior. I desire to be a Pastor someday but I know that right now I am not ready considering the qualifications, therefore I would like to go so that I can possibly teach or write about theology.

I have not college whatsoever and am currently in TNARS......free Reformed seminary check it out....

I actually have been planning to apply to TNARS even if I go to PRTS as well, all the Reformed theological/biblical knowledge I can get is welcomed.:)
 
I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite. :think: Maybe some credit life experience in related work.

:ditto:

Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?
 
I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite. :think: Maybe some credit life experience in related work.

I notice TNARS is a bit different. I regard a "seminary" as a graduate school. However, TNARS starts with Associates, followed by Bachelors, as prerequisites for Masters. Go get 'em.

Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary allows for certain individuals to go through their MDIV etc..programs but the catch is that at the end you are rewarded a Bachelors degree instead of the Masters degree.

Oh, and, TNARS needs more mentors so that more men who are called can go there, Go get 'em :)
 
I would also encourage you to get as much education as you can. Even an education in a secular university can be of much benefit as background for training in the ministry. For example, not only is it possible to study biblical languages in many universities, but also Latin, French, and German which can also be enormously helpful for the study of Reformed theology. The study of English literature and history can also be quite beneficial in forming a man for the ministry. I've always been grateful for my BA at the University of Alberta. I had to take some courses that were a waste of time, but a lot of it was very valuable.

For what it's worth.
 
Greenville may also have a similar provision, allowing a man to move directly from a high school degree to seminary.

Historically, a seminary degree was a bachelor's degree [B.Div.--Bachelor of Divinity], but at least by the 20th century, seminaries began to require a college undergraduate degree for admission. Finally, circa 1960-65, the B.Div. degree was shifted over to an M.Div., in recognition of the prior bachelor's degree.

I agree with Wes--get as much education as you can. If I had it to do over, I would have done my undergrad in languages [Hebrew, Greek, Latin & German].
 
I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite. :think: Maybe some credit life experience in related work.

:ditto:

Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?

Because it would be a waste of time and money, also it would needlessly add on debt, and I believe debt is a very serious thing which should be avoided any time possible (Romans13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.).

Thank you guys for all your advice, I certainly will get as much education as I can, I plan on definitely trying to get into TNARS.net as well as continuing up to a Doctorate from Puritan Reformed if I get in, and if I needed to learn Latin etc. I could just take single courses at a college instead of wasting the time spent learning things I will never use :)

The only thing secular schools have to offer that is of interest to me is philosophy, English, and Greek IF they even offered it, and anyways, I can learn all of that on my own, I am pretty self willed when I am interested in something. I taught myself Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do and the philosophy behind it and am now certified as one of 40 top instructors under Paul Vunak who has given 50 police agencies, Navy Seals, F.B.I., D.E.A., C.I.A., Marines, and Army their offensive/defensive fighting systems.
My teachers website is here Home (you can find my name in his instructor list under Charlie Barribeau) I did not link my new website to his page yet but it is hereHome
The reason I wrote that is to establish that I am pretty self willed(with the causing of the Holy Spirit;)) :lol:
 
I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite. :think: Maybe some credit life experience in related work.

:ditto:

Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?

Because it would be a waste of time and money, also it would needlessly add on debt, and I believe debt is a very serious thing which should be avoided any time possible
......
The only thing secular schools have to offer that is of interest to me is philosophy, English, and Greek IF they even offered it, and anyways, I can learn all of that on my own, I am pretty self willed when I am interested in something. I

Charlie, I would submit that, though it may *seem* like it would be a waste of time and money, you will later be very grateful for that time of slow, diligent, and guided learning. It certainly will not be a waste of time; and you don't have to go into large debt. It is very possible to go through school, working and earning enough to pay for it. Take time, study languages (Hebrew, Greek and Latin, if possible, and perhaps a modern language or two); study a bit of [the history of] philosophy -- it is very different than just picking up the books and reading some things yourself; instead of just reading literature, read it while sitting under professors whose job it is to understand it in ways you could never imagine; sit next to that other student who makes you feel so dumb with his intellect, and this will keep you far from complacency with your current state of understanding; be tested by a professor on the things which you think you have down so that you can find out that you don't really understand it at all, and still have a lot of work to do; write a paper, and get it back with the professor telling you that your thesis is unsustainable and that you have misused your references. Self-education is great, my friend, but there is another much more unbelievably rich resource in front of you. So, if you're preparing for an academically rigorous life, start off on the right foundation: it will save you much trouble and toil in the future, and make you much more effective at whatever work you find yourself doing.

From what you said, it sounds like you are a very motivated and willed person: that's quite admirable, and I pray that I could be as diligent. Just think, however, of what could be attained if you took that motivation and those abilities, and placed them within the context of brilliant professors whose job is to nurture those qualities and direct them in the best path.
 
:ditto:

Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?

Because it would be a waste of time and money, also it would needlessly add on debt, and I believe debt is a very serious thing which should be avoided any time possible
......
The only thing secular schools have to offer that is of interest to me is philosophy, English, and Greek IF they even offered it, and anyways, I can learn all of that on my own, I am pretty self willed when I am interested in something. I

Charlie, I would submit that, though it may *seem* like it would be a waste of time and money, you will later be very grateful for that time of slow, diligent, and guided learning. It certainly will not be a waste of time; and you don't have to go into large debt. It is very possible to go through school, working and earning enough to pay for it. Take time, study languages (Hebrew, Greek and Latin, if possible, and perhaps a modern language or two); study a bit of [the history of] philosophy -- it is very different than just picking up the books and reading some things yourself; instead of just reading literature, read it while sitting under professors whose job it is to understand it in ways you could never imagine; sit next to that other student who makes you feel so dumb with his intellect, and this will keep you far from complacency with your current state of understanding; be tested by a professor on the things which you think you have down so that you can find out that you don't really understand it at all, and still have a lot of work to do; write a paper, and get it back with the professor telling you that your thesis is unsustainable and that you have misused your references. Self-education is great, my friend, but there is another much more unbelievably rich resource in front of you. So, if you're preparing for an academically rigorous life, start off on the right foundation: it will save you much trouble and toil in the future, and make you much more effective at whatever work you find yourself doing.

Thank you for the advice Paul, I will seriously consider it. :)

(my thank button doesn't exist right now lol)
 
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I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite. :think: Maybe some credit life experience in related work.

:ditto:

Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?

Because it would be a waste of time and money, also it would needlessly add on debt, and I believe debt is a very serious thing which should be avoided any time possible (Romans13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.).

Thank you guys for all your advice, I certainly will get as much education as I can, I plan on definitely trying to get into TNARS.net as well as continuing up to a Doctorate from Puritan Reformed if I get in, and if I needed to learn Latin etc. I could just take single courses at a college instead of wasting the time spent learning things I will never use :)

The only thing secular schools have to offer that is of interest to me is philosophy, English, and Greek IF they even offered it, and anyways, I can learn all of that on my own, I am pretty self willed when I am interested in something. I taught myself Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do and the philosophy behind it and am now certified as one of 40 top instructors under Paul Vunak who has given 50 police agencies, Navy Seals, F.B.I., D.E.A., C.I.A., Marines, and Army their offensive/defensive fighting systems.
My teachers website is here Home (you can find my name in his instructor list under Charlie Barribeau) I did not link my new website to his page yet but it is hereHome
The reason I wrote that is to establish that I am pretty self willed(with the causing of the Holy Spirit;)) :lol:

No offense there brother but everyone is self-willed when interested in something. The discipline is when you are not interested in something and still moving forward. You are presenting a scenario as if it were impossible to attain an undergraduate education without incurring massive debt. I know people who have done it without debt. They did not complete in 4 years but they did finish and then did the same thing for graduate school. It can be done. Since it sounds like your goal is a Ph.D. it concerns me that someone interested in teaching is not interested in being taught. Besides how do you know you will never use things you've been taught. I took not 1 but 3 psych classes that I abhorred but I can see their use now when people come with psycho nonsense. As a JKD instructor you know well about taking what is useful and discarding the rest. The problem is you are deciding what is useful before taking anything. :2cents:
 
I'm not a seminarian, but I have 2 useful (I think) things to say. Then I will bow out.

1. I got my bachelors in 4 years with no debt. I went to a secular state school, worked part time, kept my grades up to get merit scholarships, and got only 1 (small) need based grant. It can be done, especially if you go to community college first to take some of your gen eds at a lower cost. And despite being a secular school, I learned many things that I am able to apply to my Christian walk.

2. I would be extremely hesitant to sit under a pastor who did not have his bachelor's degree, especially for the reasons you give. I respect someone who is willing to be taught - even by those with whom he disagrees.
 
Some seminaries, I believe, will admit people who have no undergraduate degree. But these are exceptions. It usually applies only to older men or folk with special circumstances.
I have two undergraduates- Business and Nursing and I would not recommend seminary, which is grad school, without having gone through the rigor of academic study prior to arrival at seminary.
Seminary is demanding. There is a lot of work, a lot of reading (I have one class this semester that requires 1200+ pages that counts towards your final grade), many small ongoing assignments as well as larger assignments that require research abilities and of course exams. My experience of undergrad has helped to discipline me in that oftentimes there is work that I really just don't want to do or other stuff that I want to overly focus on because it pleases me. Undergrad is really good prep for this.
Aside from the academic there is also the spiritual aspect at seminary. Satan does not want you to be there. You will often be doing battle as it were with temptation, struggling with calling, discouragement form your own perceived abilities and shortcomings. Also in many ways you will be confronted with your own sin and how God is exposing that and dealing with it in your life.
I also think that life experience is invaluable when it comes to serving in the church. For example the thought of shepherding, nurturing, protecting, teaching God's people, sharing the good news of the gospel with unbelievers, ministering to young, old and in between, dealing with the broken hearted, discouraged, backslidden or stubborn terrifies me. It is an immense responsibility. Yet as an RN I have responsibility for peoples lives. I am charged with people's safety, I administer drugs that could be fatal, I perform CPR, I listen to people's stories, I serve and minister to them already just in a different capacity.
Don't get me wrong I count myself privileged to be at Covenant. Some of my classes and professors are awesome and I am learning a lot. It's busy, I am broke, I am tired, I want this semester to be over, but I am excited about next semester's classes, I want to be able to use this knowledge to better serve God's people, I am excited yet nervous about being an officer in God's church. All in all its an awesome experience.
Now I have to go do some work.
 
Gentlemen,

I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?

I would agree with those who have mentioned the preference of Reformed communions for educated clergy. (I'm sure they all are glad of it, too!) But I am reminded of something John Frame said about Reformed communions and the paucity of minorities both in the pews and among the leadership. He said in his estimation one of the problems is formal educational requirements which most minorities simply cannot afford, requirements, moreover, which he believes exceed the qualification set forth in Scripture. (You may not be a minority, but the matter of prohibitive cost is still an issue, I gather.)

It is true that there are financial aid programs, but even so, those are difficult to come by. One would like to think that the church could do better than to follow what has become the world's method of theological preparation and study. There is a distinction between being educated and having a degree. This country is producing multitudes of the latter, and precious few of the former. The point is to be able to read, to write and to think, with excellence.

If it's time and money you don't want to waste, it is your time and your money. However, I side with those who would urge you to reconsider. If, on the other hand, it's money you don't have, then you are wise to try to get the knowledge and the skills, even without the sheepskin. A proper reading list, and an excellent tutor, can have you better trained than some with those sheepskins. (I know because I have met some of those. I'm sure we all have.)

May I commend to you, Herman Witsius on The Character of a True Theologian? He spells out in general terms what he thinks a proper curriculum should look like. You may find it quite edifying and affirming.

Finally, in the interests of full disclosure, I might add that I possess both the B.A. (Texas Tech University, 1993) and the M.Div. (New Geneva Theological Seminary, 2003) and am preparing to begin a Th.M. program.
 
Paul and Frank gave great advice Charlie. You need to be involved in a real learning environment that will slowly help you uncover the gaps in your systematic knowledge AND your social skills. Being a pastor is a calling that involves above average social skills and a solid foundation. It's not just the knowledge off of a page that educates, it's dealing with the challenge of hard headed profs and obstinate roommates, holding down a job to pay for your semester, and the bonds that are made through the common experiences.

I personally have encountered too many young men who have tried to fast track into ministry and the results were tragic. Online learning is great if you are going to have an online ministry but we don't call those people pastors - we call them bloggers.
 
GPTS and other seminaries offer a B.Div if one does not have a Bachelors degree. The B.Div is the exact same curriculum as the M.Div. It has the same classes and requirements but it is awarded to those without a Bachelors.

Anything you can do, including receiving a Bachelor's first, to make your seminary training more profitable is a good thing.
 
Whitefiled Theological Seminary allows you to take their MDiv courses for a Bachelor of Divinity. If you later get your Bachelors, they will change it to an MDiv. However, I would get your Bachelors degree first.
 
Gentlemen,

I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?:pilgrim:

Oh, and, did you attend other seminaries thereafter to get a Masters as opposed to just a seminary Bachelors degree? and if you hadn't gone through seminary twice to get up to a Masters would you have been nearly as successful?

I am asking because I am interested in trying to get into Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary without getting my bachelors prior. I desire to be a Pastor someday but I know that right now I am not ready considering the qualifications, therefore I would like to go so that I can possibly teach or write about theology.

Charlie,

PM me if you would be interested in learning about LAMP seminary which is running through my church. It will allow for a B div and has the hands on training through pastors and elders. I am finding it very beneficial indeed.
 
I suggest getting a B.Div instead of a master's. Ask PRTS is they'll enter you into a B.Div program instead of a master's program. The B.Div is good enough grounds for going through the ordination process. It's basically the same as a M.Div, just without a prior bachelor's, which is what you're asking for.
 
...

Although I haven't been to seminary yet I am grateful for my secular B.A in philosophy with a minor in religious studies. Although I rarely learned in class from the professors they did challenge me enough to motivate me to study hard so that I knew the material well enough to argue against them when they attacked the faith. Surprisingly, it was the religious studies guys who were the worst for being blatantly anti-christian! It was the philosophers that tended to be more accepting and even hear me out. But they too were in a sad state... some of them were obviously humbled by the fact that after years of schooling and a Ph.D beside their name they still had not figured out what they were studying... :(

Also, if I could go back in time I'd lose the religious studies degree and do languages or linguistics. Far more useful for seminary than religious studies aka regurgitate Ehrman classes.
 
Perhaps this question should start a new thread, but with Whitefield, Greenville, PRTS and LAMP all offering the B.Div. option, are we seeing a trend in that direction--a demand that these seminaries have had the foresight to serve, and what will be the outcomes, both positive and negative, if increasingly men take this option?

The Bawb has offered some of the negatives. Personally I don't think a man should be a pastor until he is at least 30 years old. The current college/seminary track works to that end somewhat. But in terms of common sense and life wisdom, it might be far better to have learned a trade and worked for a while before entering the pastorate.
 
Perhaps this question should start a new thread, but with Whitefield, Greenville, PRTS and LAMP all offering the B.Div. option, are we seeing a trend in that direction--a demand that these seminaries have had the foresight to serve, and what will be the outcomes, both positive and negative, if increasingly men take this option?

The Bawb has offered some of the negatives. Personally I don't think a man should be a pastor until he is at least 30 years old. The current college/seminary track works to that end somewhat. But in terms of common sense and life wisdom, it might be far better to have learned a trade and worked for a while before entering the pastorate.

GPTS has as one of its requirments for the B.Div, that men must be at least 30 years old. As I noted before, the B.Div is actually the compelte M.Div program, but it is awarded to those without a Bachelor's. Greenville recognizes that future Pastor's need training regardless if they have a prior degree or not.
 
Perhaps this question should start a new thread, but with Whitefield, Greenville, PRTS and LAMP all offering the B.Div. option, are we seeing a trend in that direction--a demand that these seminaries have had the foresight to serve, and what will be the outcomes, both positive and negative, if increasingly men take this option?

The Bawb has offered some of the negatives. Personally I don't think a man should be a pastor until he is at least 30 years old. The current college/seminary track works to that end somewhat. But in terms of common sense and life wisdom, it might be far better to have learned a trade and worked for a while before entering the pastorate.

:amen: and :amen:
 
I think R. Scott Clark has articulated some really valuable thoughts on seminary education from a professor’s perspective here and here. My opinion from the perspective of a seminary grad is this: seek the very best school you can. You only have one chance to go to seminary so don’t waste it. Having been to a ho-hum school for the MDiv, then great schools for the ThM and PhD (still in progress), there’s no comparison. Having high quality guidance from professors, challenging discussions with gifted peers, and high standards for writing and research makes the learning curve dramatically higher. Regarding distance learning, I have yet to see the asynchronous posting software that can remotely duplicate the pressures/benefits of face-to-face seminar discussion.

Bottom line – If God has called us to a task, then we should take the preparation for that task with great seriousness. If you can’t arrange now to go where you’ll get the best training for ministry, wait, pray, and read widely until you can. Some confessional suggestions: Westminster Seminary California (US students), Free Church Theological College (UK students). Non-confessional suggestions: Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (US students), London School of Theology (UK students).
 
Just a heads up for you brother, PRTS does not offer Doctorate degrees and they are also not authorized to award Bachelor's degrees. When a man comes to PRTS without the BA, he will be awarded a "Diploma".

As a student at PRTS I would suggest you study for a BA first. The languages and a foundation in Philosophy will help you a lot. Also, when you earn your BA, no one can take that away from you. You would always have your degree and be far more marketable to future employers if you were ever leave the ministry.

This is just my opinion. Earn the BA first. If you are interested in distance education I would suggest checking out Thomas Edison State College in NJ. Here is the website and they offer BAs in Religious Studies as well as Philosophy. Thomas Edison State College
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......with all these suggestions to get a Bachelors first I might have to do so.......................:drool:
 
You cannot get a masters from any accreditated university or seminary with out a BA. You may enroll in SOME seminaries and do the Mdiv program but you will get the title Bdiv or Bth. Patience is a virtue and if you are not willing to get either a BA or a Bdiv and you just want the title maybe you ought to prayerfully reconsider your vocation.
 
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