Separation from the world

[rbcbob]

SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
I was pained to read through a recent thread on Rock Concerts. I regularly wish that I could forget the rock music which is seared into my memory. Rather than weigh in on that thread I want to open one wherein others who, like myself would like to espouse a Biblically balanced separation from the world.
The question that I pose is this:

IF, as the Scriptures teach, We are not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 1 John 2:15-17
and
2 Corinthians 6:17 - 7:1 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty." Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
THEN what does such separation look like? How does the believer in each succeeding generation work this out for himself or herself?

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=221101029380

 

[TaylorOtwell]

[video=youtube;NY6bn-MrjdQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY6bn-MrjdQ[/video]

 

[rbcbob]

Taylor, I can't see what you posted. It's just a blank on my screen.

 

[TaylorOtwell]

Taylor, I can't see what you posted. It's just a blank on my screen.

Brother Bob,

It's a YouTube video of John Piper discussing what he sees as the "Achilles Heel" of the rising generation. Namely, though many have a large interest in Puritan/Reformed Theology, it is disconnected from their practical, daily living.

 

[Scott1]

Bob,

I think part of it is in the sabbath. The fourth commandment, the Lord's Day.

Separating oneself from not only the actions of our work on this earth, but thinking or talking about it. It is a foretaste of what heaven is like.

(emphasis added)

Westminster Larger Catechism

Question 121: Why is the word Remember set in the beginning of the fourth commandment?

Answer: The word Remember is set in the beginning of the fourth commandment, partly, because of the great benefit of remembering it, we being thereby helped in our preparation to keep it, and, in keeping it, better to keep all the rest of the commandments, and to continue a thankful remembrance of the two great benefits of creation and redemption, which contain a short abridgment of religion; and partly, because we are very ready to forget it, for that there is less light of nature for it, and yet it restrains our natural liberty in things at other times lawful; that it comes but once in seven days, and many worldly businesses come between, and too often take off our minds from thinking of it, either to prepare for it, or to sanctify it;and that Satan with his instruments much labor to blot out the glory, and even the memory of it, to bring in all irreligion and impiety.

Westminster Directory of Worship

CHAPTER IV
THE SANCTIFICATION OF THE LORD’S DAY

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.42
1. As it is the law of nature that, in general, a due proportion of time
be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive,
moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all people in all
ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven to be a day
set apart and kept holy to Him.43 From the beginning of creation
to the resurrection of Christ, this day was the seventh day of the
week,44 but following the resurrection this day became the first
day of the week and is called the Lord’s Day.45

2. The Lord’s Day is to be kept holy by a holy resting all the day,
making it our delight46 to spend the whole time in the public and
private exercises of religion, together with works of necessity and
mercy.47 To that end, we should prepare our hearts and order our
lives and labors beforehand so that the whole day may be kept
for the Lord.48

3. When the day is properly kept, it is experienced as a day of joy
and celebration in holy convocation.49 On this day we are enabled
by the Spirit to leave the toils and worries of this world and taste
afresh of the heavenly rest, returning to the household of God
who inhabits the praises of His people.50 We are to imitate the
example of God, who rested and was refreshed when He finished
the work of creation.51 We are to remember our deliverance and
salvation, and look forward to the eternal rest secured for us in
the resurrection of Christ;52 even as our forefathers under the Old
Testament recalled their deliverance from Egypt and the gift of
rest in the promised land.53

42 Exod. 20:8.
43 COF XXI.VII.
44 Exod. 20:8, 31:12-17.
45 Luke 24:36-49; John 20:19-23, 26-29; Acts 20:7; I Cor. 16:2; Rev. 1:10.
46 Isa. 58:13-14.
47 Mark 2:23—3:5, Luke 13:10-16, COF XXI.VIII.
48 Exod. 16:5, 22-30; COF XXI.VIII; LC Q. 117 .
49 Neh. 8:9-12; Ps. 122:1; Is. 56:1-8, 58:13-14.
50 Ps. 22:3.
51 Exod. 20:8, 31:17.
52 Heb. 4:1-10.
53 Deut. 5:12-15.

 

[Michael]

For me, separation looks like: the practice of removing worldly idols from one's personal affections. This can sometimes play itself out differently to various people. There are certain things from my past life of hedonism that I simply cannot partake of or enjoy that may coincidentally be of little or no danger to another child of God. I must amputate those things which have competed for God's glory in my heart. That's what it looks like to me.

 

[jayce475]

Maybe it is the separatist teachings and literal hermeneutics that I have been exposed to over the years, but if the bible says be separate from such things and love not such things, then doesn't it simply mean that we ought to not touch them? I know that sensual movies on TV or at the cinemas are unclean, then I shouldn't even go anywhere near them should I? If I know that rock bands constantly scream out devilish lyrics, I shouldn't be anywhere near them. Unless of course, I'm going there to evaluate them and uses such an evaluation in preparation for a sermon. But for the sake of pleasure and self-indulgence, why is we even trying to justify ourselves before God? Why are we using our ears which should be used for hearing God's word to hear words of the devil, using our eyes which are meant for reading God's word to watching products of the devil and using our feet which should be used for travelling for God's purposes to go to worldly places?
Luke 8: 14-15 "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
To think that we are on the Puritan Board, perhaps we should start embracing the piety and holiness preached by the puritans a bit more?

 

[rbcbob]

Ephesians 5: 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.

In the 60’s and 70’s when a stranger to God and His grace I walked in darkness. The mantra of that generation was “sex, drugs and rock ‘n roll”. But for the grace of God I would have continued reveling in it all. It puzzles me that those who have been redeemed and separated from the world and unto Christ can revel in such things.

 

[jayce475]

Ephesians 5: 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.

In the 60’s and 70’s when a stranger to God and His grace I walked in darkness. The mantra of that generation was “sex, drugs and rock ‘n roll”. But for the grace of God I would have continued reveling in it all. It puzzles me that those who have been redeemed and separated from the world and unto Christ can revel in such things.

It's not as if generation "Y" is all that different. Our mantra appears to be "just do it". Had it not been for God's grace, I also would still be feeding on my daily dose of blasphemous rock songs and sappy sentimental music from the likes of Taylor Swift. Tozer put it well. "The idea that this world is a playground instead of a battleground has now been accepted in practice by the vast majority of Christians. "

 

[AVT]

Separation from the world? It makes me ask,"What is worldliness?". I cannot separate totally from the world-I am confronted and bombarded by it in my daily life. I always look at the world as belonging to God and affected by so much fallenness and sin. God has redeemed me from the inside and as I mature in my spiritual walk , I am becoming more confident in engaging the world...and I am not really surprised when I see a lot of evil and twisted ideas as a result of the Fall.

As doing things differently from the world ,I just use the Ten Commandments to guide me in my actions and decisions and repent immediately when I fail.

 

[Mushroom]

Romans 14, brother.

 

[py3ak]

Worldliness is sometimes equated with entertainment/pleasure (though oddly enough that equation is only rarely made with regard to sports, and much more with regard to stories). And to be sure, some entertainments and pleasures can be irremediably worldly, and even those that are not can be abused unto worldliness. But making such an equation is dangerous, I think, in large part because it can leave untouched vast tracts of worldliness within oneself that go unrecognized since they do not fit in obvious ways with the entertainment zeitgeist.

When I think about worldliness there are two elements that come to mind. One is that the fashion of this world passes away, and consequently any attitude or habit that practically forgets the transitory nature of the present constitution is necessarily worldly. We must not, from looking around us, forget to look towards the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. The second thing is related to that, and it is the unfruitful character of worldliness. It does not produce anything that can outlast the final conflagration, and so it is ultimately barren. No doubt there is more that could be said, but it seems to me that it is possible to at least begin to expose and reject worldliness by proceeding along those lines, while preserving the idea that God's creation is good and we are blessed with much that can be used and enjoyed in the prospect of eternal life.

 

[jayce475]

Romans 14, brother.

Romans 14:1-2"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs."

Which means that those who able to do engage in worldly activities unto the glory of God should be allowed to do so with a critical eye, while those of weaker faith and cannot do so critically should not touch them at all.

1 Cor 10:31 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

How many are able to attend a Black Sabbath concert and revel in the worldly sounds to the glory of God?

 

[Mushroom]

How many are able to attend a Black Sabbath concert and revel in the worldly sounds to the glory of God?

Not this one, brother.

 

[buggy]

It is important for us not to immediately worldliness with things, for if we do that we will miss the meaning of what worldliness is. The purpose of the Christian for this life, is, as the Word of God says to glorify Him, and enjoy Him forever (so does the confessions). As it can be seen, the Christian life focuses its love and devotion to Jesus Christ who saves all His children. Such love is expressed through keeping God's commandments, receiving all good things in thanksgiving and prayer - to live in a thankful manner dependent on Him.

But what about the worldly soul? Without his eyes set on God, he satisfies himself in creation rather than the Creator. Allowing himself to be persuaded by the philosophies of this world rather than the Word of God. Worldliness is of the heart. We can choose to abstain totally from alcoholic drinks, gambling, etc. but we still act rashly and foolishly towards others without thinking of our actions - exactly what the drunkard and gambler and so on does.

I agree that much of the "worldliness" is aimed at the entertainment industry. It is true that many in my generation waste much time with vain entertainments, which delay economic productivity, marriage eligibility, and availability for Christian service... and ultimately love for the Lord. But "entertainment" is a necessity - so one must put their priorities correct.

To remember what Solomon said, "All is vanity". And Paul's statement, "Use this world, but not abuse it."
This should be the believer's attitude towards the world.

 

[Pilgrim72]

Just a thought. Who's saying that those people who went to those concerts "loved" them in a worldly sense? As in "If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him".

I do see what you're saying, and if going to a rock concert is causing you to sin, then you shouldn't go. But what if enjoying that music, to someone, is the same as enjoying a Marble Mocha Macchiato at Starbucks? It's a passing enjoyment just as anything in this world. I recently played Monopoly (for the first time in decades) with a friend of mine and his family. I lost. But I still enjoyed that time. Was it sin to play that game? Maybe you think so, I don't know.
Some people on this board enjoy watching sports and playing sports, (even though I personally don't). Is that sin?
Are we supposed to cut off all enjoyment in the things of this passing world (not speaking of worldliness here)? Who says that Christians that enjoy these things are "lusting" after them? I don't think the verses you listed apply. If you're going to apply them to music, then maybe apply them to everything else in life.

I hope this doesn't read like I'm upset. I'm not. It's just my 2 cents.

 

[rbcbob]

Romans 6: 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles -- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Should we be comfortable (not to mention take pleasure) in a setting
• Where the philosophy, and thus the lyrics, of the artists use God and our Redeemer’s name as a swear word
• where the world-view of the artists and fans is opposed to God and His law
• where fornication, adultery, drug abuse are celebrated
• where the God ordained standards of family, selfless love, and self control are notoriously absent
• where women are degraded as objects for throw away pleasures

Where in all of this are the called out people of God? Where the new nature? Where the conformity to Christ? Where the Sanctifying power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit? Where are the New Creations in Christ?

 

[Pilgrim72]

I rarely go to concerts anymore, but when I did, I can sincerely say that I personally did not enjoy any part of what you listed there. I went because I enjoyed music in a live setting. You're going to find all kinds of sin in this world as we pass through. If we enjoy a song, or a ballgame, or a TV show, or whatever, doesn't mean we are taking part in the same personal sins or wicked values of those that are entertaining or being entertained. But I'm only saying this for myself.
I didn't even start going to concerts until long after I became a Christian...

Where in all of this are the called out people of God? Where the new nature? Where the conformity to Christ? Where the Sanctifying power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit? Where are the New Creations in Christ?

You find this in the church. With God's people. How I am incredibly blessed to join with the people of God to worship Him, and glorify Him. And ultimately we'll see a perfection of these qualities in heaven.

 

[kvanlaan]

How many are able to attend a Black Sabbath concert and revel in the worldly sounds to the glory of God?

I don't know that anyone can (or, shall I phrase it this way; could someone please show me how you can?)

I've heard a lot of people talk about the fact that we must yet go out into this world, that Christ spent time in the world all the time, and yet Christ never chilled out over a beer with tax collectors and centurions, he gave them the gospel. Do we give the next guy over at the Black Sabbath concert the gospel, or are we just there to gorge at the trough of the world (and then, two days later, come to the table of the Lord and expect everything to be hunky dory)?

 

[jayce475]

Just a thought. Who's saying that those people who went to those concerts "loved" them in a worldly sense? As in "If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him".

I do see what you're saying, and if going to a rock concert is causing you to sin, then you shouldn't go. But what if enjoying that music, to someone, is the same as enjoying a Marble Mocha Macchiato at Starbucks? It's a passing enjoyment just as anything in this world. I recently played Monopoly (for the first time in decades) with a friend of mine and his family. I lost. But I still enjoyed that time. Was it sin to play that game? Maybe you think so, I don't know.
Some people on this board enjoy watching sports and playing sports, (even though I personally don't). Is that sin?
Are we supposed to cut off all enjoyment in the things of this passing world (not speaking of worldliness here)? Who says that Christians that enjoy these things are "lusting" after them? I don't think the verses you listed apply. If you're going to apply them to music, then maybe apply them to everything else in life.

I hope this doesn't read like I'm upset. I'm not. It's just my 2 cents.

Eccl 2:1 "I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity."

Eccl 12:13-14 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Any form of enjoyment done without God in mind is vanity, nothing but emptiness. Even enjoying the labour of our hands without faith is sin, so it is difficult to see how our typical self-indulgent entertainment-seeking heart is usually able to glorify God. When we study or work, we labour lawfully and with God in mind, keeping a good testimony for our Lord. When we partake of lawful recreation like sports and games (Monopoly and such), we do so without letting pride getting in the way and always remembering that we need to fear God and behave as a child of God when we utter anything in the course of the games. We also thank God that we are able to have friends and family around us to enjoy these activities with us.

I am in the process of quitting the watching of sports myself as I find myself being consumed by my emotions in supporting my favourite teams, but if there be any brethren who is able to watch sports and appreciate how wondrous God's creation is in granting the sportsmen those gifts without making any sports figure the object of idolatory, then there is a good case for watching sports to the glory of God.

So yes indeed, absolutely everything we do moment by moment absolutely has to be to the glory of God for He is thrice holy. We fall short all the time, so there is a need to repent every single day. But aren't we making the world a bit too much of a playground when we openly seek entertainment that pander to our flesh without even giving a second thought as to how we can possibly do something like that to the glory of God? I welcome brethren to give some perspectives on how rock music can be enjoyed in a way that gives glory to God, especially the outright blasphemous ones like Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath that I have seen being named in the thread about rock music. Also, with regards to lyrics, even if they are not blasphemous, they are also almost invariably filled with worldly philosophies and unbiblical sentimental notions of romance. Can one be immersed in hours upon hours of such songs and grow in His grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[bouletheou]

Bob,

Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?

Blessings,

 

[ChariotsofFire]

I've been thinking about the issue of worldliness both in principle and in practice.

In principle, I know that God has given us many good gifts in this life to take pleasure in, but I can't let these good things become idols. Keep them in their proper perspective. Things overtly against God's will are of the flesh, and if movies or music or sports encourage us to sin in any way by influencing us to act in the flesh, "put off" these things. We can not hide behind "Christian Liberty" to enjoy things God hates. Now we also are in the world and not of the world, which is where I begin to think pragmatically.

I know God has given us entertainment, and we can enjoy it, but in our culture much of entertainment is steeped in sin (the "of the world" part). To take movies for an example, there are very few movies with no sinful behaviors in them. In Toy Story (rated G?), there in hatred shown by the main character towards another character. Is this sinful behavior in the movie similar to keeping company with the fool? Is this bad company going to corrupt good morals in me? I didn't feel any more inclined to hate people I didn't think, but perhaps I should have avoided this movie. I want to hold every thought captive to Christ. If I know something I choose to engage in is going to corrupt me in any way, I know I should avoid it. If this is the standard, how do we discern what will corrupt our morals? Maybe someone will argue they can watch unwholesome talk (maybe four letter words, etc.). After all I can watch someone hate someone else. Could degrees of evil come into play? Hating is bad, but murder is much worse, etc. etc. Where do we draw the line? I could use some wisdom!

My current practice w/ entertainment is to avoid entertainment that would cause me to lust in any way, would cause me to speak unwholesomely with curse words, or would cause me to act in rage with senseless violence. I think I should also avoid entertainment that encourages jealousy, strife, anger, and hatred as well. Currently, I don't know really how to discern this very well.

Gal 5:16-25
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, [4] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

2 Cor 10:5
5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ

 

[Bern]

Bob,

Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?

Blessings,

It depepnds if the subject/ style of the opera was downright opposed to God's commands or not. I personally can't stand the sound of opera, but for the most part, I don't think it is on par with the evils of rock music. I personally think that music is one of the big idols of modern life, especially for under 30's. Anything done without faith is sin.... and there's no way I can listen to rock music that glorifies the world and minimises God and think that God is pleased with me while I'm doing it.

As I said on the other thread, I gave up rock music a few years ago, and I haven't missed it... I was a musician and music was my life, but I realised that constantly being exposed to ungodly morality and anything that exalts the flesh and the world (and sometimes the devil) and dethrones God was seriously bad for my spiritual health.
People make excuses for rock music because it is their pet sin that they dont want to let go of.

 

[PuritanZealot]

we are on the Puritan Board, perhaps we should start embracing the piety and holiness preached by the puritans a bit more?

Totally agree.
And in my opinion, surely for a true born again believer the mere memory of their sin should be a disgusting thing to behold. I used to be a Satanist, into black magic, all manner of openly anti-christian and demonic things and one of those was black metal music (don't look it up).
When I became a Christian and turned my back on it I had to turn my back on EVERYTHING to do with that lifestyle.
Some Christians who still listen to rock music or metal that is 'christian' are just like dogs that go back and sniff their vomit rather than eat it. It's still a remnant of that disgusting sinful self.
I think the puritans would utterly abhor the idea of Christian rock music. So should we.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Bob,

Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?

Blessings,

Good point, Pastor Carpenter. The real issue isn't the style of music so much as the content of the song and the motives of the person listening to it. I'm not a big fan of rock music, but I can imagine there is and can be edifying rock music. Likewise, I have been to operas with objectionable content on the stage and highly suggestive lyrics to accompany the beautiful melodies. On the other hand my brother was into Christian heavy metal as a teenager, and while I found the quality of music to be terrible it was hard to argue with much of the lyrical content. So I think it's highly simplistic to dismiss an entire genre of music over mere stylistic concerns. The real issue is examining our hearts to glorify God in all we do - including enjoying all manner of sounds that He ultimately created.

 

[buggy]

There seems to be an underlying assumption in some statements here that rock music per se is sinful or ungodly. May I ask the reason why this is so. I do not buy into the 4/4 back-beat argument or the "harmony, melody, rhythm" argument some Arminian fundamentalists promote (google them if you don't know).

If you shun rock music because of its ungodly connotations you preceive, I understand why and it is even good for to follow one's personal convictions. However, may it be reminded that even the classical music, orchestra, native music, ballroom music, of the olden days have their fair share of musicians with biblically questionable/ungodly lifestyles as well (e.g. homosexuality, womanizing and so on).

Who knows in the future what new styles/genres of music will be invented by Man? Then what will we say? It is important that when we look at anything in this world, we analyze it from a strictly Biblical perspective rather than cultural/social conservatism. For "conservative" is something that is relative and flows with the world, but the Word of God stands firm no matter what.

 

[jayce475]

Bob,

Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?

Blessings,

Good point, Pastor Carpenter. The real issue isn't the style of music so much as the content of the song and the motives of the person listening to it. I'm not a big fan of rock music, but I can imagine there is and can be edifying rock music. Likewise, I have been to operas with objectionable content on the stage and highly suggestive lyrics to accompany the beautiful melodies. On the other hand my brother was into Christian heavy metal as a teenager, and while I found the quality of music to be terrible it was hard to argue with much of the lyrical content. So I think it's highly simplistic to dismiss an entire genre of music over mere stylistic concerns. The real issue is examining our hearts to glorify God in all we do - including enjoying all manner of sounds that He ultimately created.

I believe that this topic started out targetting secular rock music and had remained on topic up until #24. The arguments have been against secular, and often times openly blasphemous and satanic, rock music. If we are touching on Christian rock, that's an RPW debate that deserves its own thread. Yes, most of us would still find Christian rock inappropriate to different levels, but that's not what we're talking about here.

There seems to be an underlying assumption in some statements here that rock music per se is sinful or ungodly. May I ask the reason why this is so. I do not buy into the 4/4 back-beat argument or the "harmony, melody, rhythm" argument some Arminian fundamentalists promote (google them if you don't know).

If you shun rock music because of its ungodly connotations you preceive, I understand why and it is even good for to follow one's personal convictions. However, may it be reminded that even the classical music, orchestra, native music, ballroom music, of the olden days have their fair share of musicians with biblically questionable/ungodly lifestyles as well (e.g. homosexuality, womanizing and so on).

Who knows in the future what new styles/genres of music will be invented by Man? Then what will we say? It is important that when we look at anything in this world, we analyze it from a strictly Biblical perspective rather than cultural/social conservatism. For "conservative" is something that is relative and flows with the world, but the Word of God stands firm no matter what.

Tian, indeed God's Word stands. And it clearly calls for biblical separation from the world. Which means that as children of God, we ought to be separate from things that are associated with the ungodly. I would contend that virtually all secular rock music, which invariably contains lyrics which depict different aspects of worldliness, is tainted by all kinds of ideas that violate at least one of God's commandments. James 1: 27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." God's Word makes it very clear, we shouldn't be spotted by such things by reveling in them. Simply because of the content, children of God should not be deriving pleasure out of any sort of secular music that contains questionable lyrics, regardless of whether it is pop, jazz, rap, R&B, country or whatever is out there today. If we are going to shift the topic to music without lyrics, then we would be talking about the neutrality of musical forms. Would you say that music is neutral? This is essentially the same debate as those on the application of RPW with regards to contemporary worship. But I suspect that is not what this thread is discussing.

By the way, you said earlier that "'entertainment' is a necessity". I would respectfully disagree. Nowhere in scriptures are we told that entertainment is necessary. We ought to gain enough joy out of our fellowship with God as it is. Yes, Solomon sought after entertainment, but then he realized how utterly pointless and empty it was. When our Lord was on earth, He did not waste time in self-indulgent entertainment did he? Recreation such as playing simple games and sports can be done for the purpose of fellowship and staying healthy, so they can be done with God's glory easily in sight. However, the passive watching of TV shows, rock concerts and movies usually serve no purpose other than exciting our flesh. Unless of course, we are really watching/attending them to understand things of God. We have a God who is radically different from the world, so ought we not also live radically different lifestyles from the world?

 

[Michael]

If we are touching on Christian rock, that's an RPW debate that deserves its own thread.

The thread is not about worship, so how is Christian rock inappropriate for this particular discussion? I'm not a big fan of CCM--I believe that even under that label there is much that requires discernment. But there were people in the concert thread that specifically mentioned Christian bands. Addressing that here would be more than appropriate.

 

[jayce475]

If we are touching on Christian rock, that's an RPW debate that deserves its own thread.

The thread is not about worship, so how is Christian rock inappropriate for this particular discussion? I'm not a big fan of CCM--I believe that even under that label there is much that requires discernment. But there were people in the concert thread that specifically mentioned Christian bands. Addressing that here would be more than appropriate.

Oh is that the case? Christian bands were mentioned? I'm clueless about them, so pardon me. So we are looking at Christian rock for the sake of personal edification and not corporate worship? The theology of the CCM collection that I amassed as a charismatic is generally suspect to say the least, but I digress. Secular rock music, as many here have echoed, really has no place in the lives of believers. Christian pop/rock/rap/whatever is a different beast altogether. In my humble opinion, there is good enough reason to not listen to them purely because of their associations to contemporary secular music and the generally suspect theology (the Arminianism in my Hillsongs CDs is pretty clear), but I personally am not totally dogmatic about this. Those more well-versed in music may perhaps like to discuss this issue.

 

[Christopher88]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but I am wanting to express a few things that you who are more educated could answer.
I enjoy the outdoors allot. I'm in awe of God when I'm that mountain top or at the beach. I love to camp, I plan to camp every month when it gets warmer. These things are part of the world, but my enjoyment in them is not worldliness. I don't worship nature, I worship God who made nature. In that I enjoy the so called playground that surrounds me. How is me enjoying Gods' creation sin? I don't believe it is. You guys are mainly talking about music. I just want to ask this one question;
What is worldliness?
I have to work to pay bills. My job does not glorfi God in anyway. So therefore that is worldliness.
I enjoy sports, but do not worship the ground the athletes walk on. So is watching sports worldliness?
I listen to Country music, I enjoy country music. Is it worldliness to enjoy something?

No.

In my personal view when a Christian is carnal he is in worship of the things he enjoys, or uses. He is sexual impure, cusses like like a sailor, is angry, and so fourth. When enjoyment becomes worship that is when we have a problem.

I came from a strict Baptist College, you could not do a thing. So when I read some of what you guys are writing, I fear legalism. Because this is a forum I can not tell what you are meaning, but some clarification would be helpful.

Thanks.