Sheol (Gk. Hades)

[EuphratesRiver]

How is everyone doing?

I don't fully understand the concept of Sheol (Gk. Hades) in the Old Testament and the greater light of it in the New Testament. I know that it refers to the grave in one place, but in another as the realm of the dead. It is vaguely described in the Old Testament as a place where the spirit of all people go after they die in the body, regardless if they were righteous or unrighteous. In the New Testament, Jesus reveals that there is separate compartments in that realm: Abraham's bosom and torment (Luke 16:22, 23).

Here are my questions:

Do we go there after we die? When the apostle Paul said that if we are absent in the body we are present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8), as our confessions do affirm, is this referring to "Abraham's bosom"? Or has it been done away with since the resurrection of Christ, and that the presence of the Lord refers to third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2)?

Thank you for your time, brothers!

(I just realized I may have posted this in the wrong forum, my apologies! If the mods can move it to the appropriate forum it would be greatly appreciated!).

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Moved to the Theological Forum.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Your question and statements give sign that some things you expect or assume are true, are not.

OT eschatology is simpler, but not fundamentally different from NT or more properly a full-biblical eschatology. Fancy eschatology in OT (and even NT) terms is essentially pagan.

A schematic and theoretically apt and simple understanding of the spirit-world in OT terms can be shown not as a literal but as a representational effort to describe conditions that are not subject to sensory perception or visual illustration in "artistically realistic" terms. [All that I have to say further is focused on personal eschatology, not general eschatology.]

We can think of the ground (we stand on) as the Boundary--it is set between the worlds. The living walk upon it; the dead lie (so to speak) on its nether "surface." This is simple to picture in terms of graves. So far as they appear to the living, the bodies of the dead occupy depressions in the ground, the boundary, and a layer of dirt is added to remove them from our sight. Those bodies now belong to the "underworld," the realm that starts at the opposite side of the boundary.

Flip the picture upside down. Now the realm of the dead is "up," the realm of the living is "down." The "denizens" of this realm, as far as bodies go, lie inert upon the ground, decomposing on the boundary.

In spiritual terms (flip illustration rightside up) God is "up" far above the boundary. He is high, the highest in the living realm and the source of all other life. Below the boundary, in the depths are the spirits in rebellion to God. The boundary represents the line between that which is destined upward, and that which is destined below.

In one sense, all the dead go "down" in the body. That understanding is validated by passages that recognize that all the dead in the body are placed where they belong, below the boundary. But the Psalmist and others affirm that their spirits if they are God's people ascend.

"Abraham's bosom" is so named because he is with God, so near God, and is still the father of the faithful even in death. This is not some other "portion" within a common realm of the dead.

The spirits of the wicked have no right, and no will, to ascend to God. They cannot pass the boundary, being banished/imprisoned below. In any case their spirits flee God's face. Their spirits no more animate their bodies, but they occupy the same realm beneath the boundary.

If at times demonic spirits returned by some way or method above the boundary, to function as gods of the heathen, or to oppress men, or to support the devil's schemes among men, they are not wholly free to act. They are opposed by holy angels, God's people are protected. Jesus when he meets them sends them "back to the Abyss" (Lk.8:31), to the depths again, far far from God. The demons can never ascend to where they were before, in the presence of God, no more assaults on heaven.

So, to summarize: a simple biblical OT eschatology trades on the fact that men live on the surface of the earth. They bury their dead out of their sight, so that they are "below" (in some sense, even in a cave) the surface of the ground. There is no need to proliferate places where dead spirits are gathered. There is unto God, and far from God. The saints (of the OT) Jesus said "live unto God." The Boundary is where men's eternal destiny is determined: above or below.

I think that would answer all your questions, but feel free to ask for clarification.

 

[RJ Spencer]

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." I'd say that this answers the question about where believers go when we die. In my view of Amillennialism this idea that we go to be with the Lord the moment we die is the first resurrection. I also believe that Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom when He died and that the OT believers there went with Him to heaven during His ascension. I believe Matthew 27:52-53 supports my view.
When the second resurrection occurs, Revelation 20:13 death and Hades will give up their dead. But I believe that Hades is the grave, my eschatology leads this belief, because only the regenerated are part of the first resurrection.

 

[EuphratesRiver]

Your question and statements give sign that some things you expect or assume are true, are not.

OT eschatology is simpler, but not fundamentally different from NT or more properly a full-biblical eschatology. Fancy eschatology in OT (and even NT) terms is essentially pagan.

A schematic and theoretically apt and simple understanding of the spirit-world in OT terms can be shown not as a literal but as a representational effort to describe conditions that are not subject to sensory perception or visual illustration in "artistically realistic" terms. [All that I have to say further is focused on personal eschatology, not general eschatology.]

We can think of the ground (we stand on) as the Boundary--it is set between the worlds. The living walk upon it; the dead lie (so to speak) on its nether "surface." This is simple to picture in terms of graves. So far as they appear to the living, the bodies of the dead occupy depressions in the ground, the boundary, and a layer of dirt is added to remove them from our sight. Those bodies now belong to the "underworld," the realm that starts at the opposite side of the boundary.

Flip the picture upside down. Now the realm of the dead is "up," the realm of the living is "down." The "denizens" of this realm, as far as bodies go, lie inert upon the ground, the boundary.

In spiritual terms (flip illustration rightside up) God is "up" far above the boundary. He is high, the highest in the living realm and the source of all other life. Below the boundary, in the depths are the spirits in rebellion to God. The boundary represents the line between that which is destined upward, and that which is destined below.

In one sense, all the dead go "down" in the body. That understanding is validated by passages that recognize that all the dead in the body are placed where they belong, below the boundary. But the Psalmist and others affirm that their spirits if they are God's people ascend.

"Abraham's bosom" is so named because he is with God, so near God, and is still the father of the faithful even in death. This is not some other "portion" within a common realm of the dead.

The spirits of the wicked have no right, and no will, to ascend to God. They cannot pass the boundary, being banished/imprisoned below. In any case their spirits flee God's face. Their spirits no more animate their bodies, but they occupy the same realm beneath the boundary.

If at times demonic spirits returned by some way or method above the boundary, to function as gods of the heathen, or to oppress men, or to support the devil's schemes among men, they are not wholly free to act. They are opposed by holy angels, God's people are protected. Jesus when he meets them sends them "back to the Abyss," the depths again, far far from God. The demons can never ascend to where they were before, in the presence of God, no more assaults on heaven.

So, to summarize: a simple biblical OT eschatology trades on the fact that men live on the surface of the earth. They bury their dead out of their sight, so that they are "below" (in some sense, even in a cave) the surface of the ground. There is no need to proliferate places where dead spirits are gathered. There is unto God, and far from God. The saints (of the OT) Jesus said "live unto God." The Boundary is where men's eternal destiny is determined: above or below.

I think that would answer all your questions, but feel free to ask for clarification.

I think I see what you are saying, which make sense. It is "worldy" and "earthly" language to describe different outcomes after death. We borrowed certain terms and/or relate it to the world around us to make sense of that reality between the righteous, who are with God, and the wicked, who are far from God. Is this what you are saying?

 

[EuphratesRiver]

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." I'd say that this answers the question about where believers go when we die. In my view of Amillennialism this idea that we go to be with the Lord the moment we die is the first resurrection. I also believe that Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom when He died and that the OT believers there went with Him to heaven during His ascension. I believe Matthew 27:52-53 supports my view.
When the second resurrection occurs, Revelation 20:13 death and Hades will give up their dead. But I believe that Hades is the grave, my eschatology leads this belief, because only the regenerated are part of the first resurrection.

Interesting! I'm not too studied up on Revelation, then again I'm not too studied up on eschatology as I should be! Thanks for answering.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I think I see what you are saying, which make sense. It is "worldy" and "earthly" language to describe different outcomes after death. We borrowed certain terms and/or relate it to the world around us to make sense of that reality between the righteous, who are with God, and the wicked, who are far from God. Is this what you are saying?

I think you get the general idea. The spiritual realm is not strictly spatial relative to our 3D universe, but we need it to explain, or take the Bible's explanations for "where" the wicked and righteous go, how they retain their individual characters. There isn't a way to "dig down" into "THE grave," as if one alive would actually find himself in the "upside down realm." The geographic world is still a spinning ball hanging in the vastness of space.

So the descriptions are representational. Moreover, the righteous of the Lord had a real hope of being able to praise their God "forever and ever" (Ps.145:1, 21). They were not confined to an after-death prison that kept (most of) them away from God's presence until Christ rescued them in history (I don't agree with Spencer). We believe the power of Christ's death saved them of old who hoped in him as the Promised One, and saves us today who trust in his finished work. The same Object of faith saves all. So, what were the OT saints actually waiting for after death if they did not find the "city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God," Heb.11:10 for which they looked expectantly while still in this world?

I can't imagine dying in faith and hope, only to find out that absent from the body wasn't to be present with my covenant LORD and God. Because the hope was still shrouded in mystery before Christ's first advent, there was even more uncertainty for the OT saints still living concerning the afterlife. This mystery did not persist after death, but death for believers has always answered questions as God gave them the comfort they had waited for while still in this life. How is it not a form of purgatory to have a divided "holding pen," and the saints on the one side are still separated from God?

 

[EuphratesRiver]

I think you get the general idea. The spiritual realm is not strictly spatial relative to our 3D universe, but we need it to explain, or take the Bible's explanations for "where" the wicked and righteous go, how they retain their individual characters. There isn't a way to "dig down" into "THE grave," as if one alive would actually find himself in the "upside down realm." The geographic world is still a spinning ball hanging in the vastness of space.

So the descriptions are representational. Moreover, the righteous of the Lord had a real hope of being able to praise their God "forever and ever" (Ps.145:1, 21). They were not confined to an after-death prison that kept (most of) them away from God's presence until Christ rescued them in history (I don't agree with Spencer). We believe the power of Christ's death saved them of old who hoped in him as the Promised One, and saves us today who trust in his finished work. The same Object of faith saves all. So, what were the OT saints actually waiting for after death if they did not find the "city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God," Heb.11:10 for which they looked expectantly while still in this world?

I can't imagine dying in faith and hope, only to find out that absent from the body wasn't to be present with my covenant LORD and God. Because the hope was still shrouded in mystery before Christ's first advent, there was even more uncertainty for the OT saints still living concerning the afterlife. This mystery did not persist after death, but death for believers has always answered questions as God gave them the comfort they had waited for while still in this life. How is it not a form of purgatory to have a divided "holding pen," and the saints on the one side are still separated from God?

I couldn't help but agree with everything you have said, it makes a lot of sense. I don't what else to ask on this subject, maybe others will chime in later.