Should I help clean a Public School?
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Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
Depending on the size of the school (you say its in an urban area so I'm assuming that its larger), its statistically probable that Christian children attend it. Even if there are not Christians there, are we not supposed to minister to the heathen? I think that providing a cleaner and freshly painted school counts as ministering. Just my
I do not believe the last sentence is true. There is always a way. I do not believe it is within Christian liberty to have a child's mind formed by an unbelieving system 8-10 hours per day, regardless of the possibility that there might be a few genuinely Christian teachers and activities trying (unsuccessfully) to stem the tide.
If my premise is correct, that it is a Christian's obligation not to put children under the instruction of ungodly systems, then by definition there are options. God has given us everything we need for life and godliness, and He will always provide means for the believer to obey Him. It might be desperate and hard, but it is there.
If there were no options for my children where I am - say if I were a widower with a church who won't help, and no churches or schools in the area would help regardless of my desperation (this is unlikely), then there is still a means. Pick up a phone and dial every acceptable church, school, or homeschool group in the city, county, state, country or world until someone says "Yes, I will help you." And then beg, borrow, plead, and work like the dickens to get there and receive that help.
There is always a way.
I would not be ministering to the Christian students by helping the school. I would be helping the system that wishes to distort their minds in the name of pluralism, tolerance, self-esteem, etc. By making their education at the feet of unbelievers more comfortable and more attractive, I only serve to mask its moral bankruptcy behind a better-kept building.
The danger of the public school system comes in its subtlety. It is not possible to sit in that environment for 12 years and not have little devilish worms burrow their way into the mind unnoticed. True, many of the symptoms and problems they would cause might be "minor," and not shipwreck a faith. But they are evil nonetheless. I am not advocating withdrawal from the world or any form of extreme separatism. I really only have a very simple principle that Christian children ought to be taught by Christian adults, according to a believing worldview. I fail to see how this is radical.
I agree that the vast, vast majority of teachers and administrators have no intentional plan to rip our children from the teachings of Scripture. Their influence does not have to be intentional to be real.
Brian Withnell
Puritan Board Junior
I respectfully disagree with your premise. If what you are saying is true, then every parent that sends their children to public school ought to be brought up on charges within their church, even if the church cannot provide the education to the children. Your premise being wrong means all that follows is irrelevant.
To say that God in his providence does not put people into positions which are impossible to have their children given a Godly education would mean that those people that were deported to Babylon by force were there only because the parents did not find a way to comply with your principle. I don't buy it.
I can certainly see that if a person has a choice, they should exercise that choice to educate their children in Christian schools, or through home schooling. But saying that there is always a way seems presumptive.
It does not necessarily mean they ought to be brought up on charges. That simply does not follow. The church can declare it to be sin, and counsel its members to avoid it, and yet still be consistent in exercising wisdom, restraint, and patience with believers who do not yet agree with the church's teaching.
This also does not follow.
Although I did not allow for it before (because it is irrelevant in America and most countries), it should be obvious that if someone is prevented, by force, from educating their children properly they are not in sin. Just as the man in solitary confinement for preaching is not in sin for being absent from church. He is also not in sin for not being there instruct his children.
The burden of proof is on your side to show that, Biblically, it is acceptable for a parent to voluntarily (as in, not by force) put their children under the instruction of unbelievers during the formative years of their lives.
My example is plain: regardless of your poverty or desperation, there most certainly is a way for a Christian in the United States to have a child taught by believers. Someone, somewhere will say yes to helping them. And there is a way to get there and take advantage of that love. And that is not presumptive.
Brian Withnell
Puritan Board Junior
Sorry, no. You are the one making a positive assertion that something is a sin when there is no specific command that forbids it. You are the one saying that the Word forbids allowing people other than Christians to educate a child, and you have not demonstrated that explicitly or from necessary consequence of what is in scripture.
Before you can claim that something is sin, you have to prove the subject is prescribed in scripture. Your assertion that it is sin makes your claim to fall under "matters of faith". Therefore it is up to you to prove that your assertion is true ... it is not up to anyone to prove that what you are saying is false if you have not first proven it true. You haven't.
Simply_Nikki
Puritan Board Junior
I haven't read through all the posts yet, but one thing just hit me. Don't we engage with non-Christians organizations all the time? Yet does it mean we are supporting the spread of the heathen gospel of hedonism. I mean painting a school, I think, falls way to the bottom of the list of something that constitutes support when compared with giving money to an organization or company who's owner(s) believes in tolerance and hedonism. Anyone use windows? or any microsoft software? Bill Gates does support "Gay Rights" and spreads his message of tolerance around the globe, does that mean you are supporting his cause by patronizing his products? I don't think so...
But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.
But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.
kalawine
Puritan Board Junior
Brad, I believe your examples are excellent and make good sense to me. Jesus didn't help the money changers set up their tables outside the temple did he?
The scriptures are too numerous to mention, and frankly I'm shocked it's being questioned. Every mention of rearing a child in a household of faith, raising a child in the way he ought to go, to bring up little ones where Scripture permeates their entire environment - on doorposts and foreheads.
It is objective, plain truth that 8-10 hours a day for 12 years in a place that forms young minds according to the worldview of unbelief cannot, in any way, be reconciled with the commands to love, protect, teach and disciple one's children. If someone is incapable of fending for themselves, why would we send them to lions, wolves, and devils...as kind and non-threatening as they may appear? Many are blessed and preserved by God despite their worldly education, and I praise Him for that.
For a short list:
Lev. 18:21
Deut 4:9-10, 25
Deut 6:1-10
Deut 11:19-21
Deut 31:12,13
Deut 32:46
Ezra 9:11-13
Psalm 34:10-11
Psalm 78:4-6
Lamentations 1:5
Matthew 7:10-12
Mark 9:42.
And I'm stopping because it's bedtime.
We are commanded to surround our children's lives and minds with the words of the Lord, with His great deeds, and protect them from those who would cause them to sin.
There is no question that an unbelieving (or worse, believing!) teacher at a public school giving a lecture applauding self-esteem, tolerance, evolution, naturalism, etc. is enticing little ones to sin. And they are sowing doubt about the greatness of our God. And the peers around them exert every possible influence toward carnality, greed and immaturity.
It is on you to show that putting a child in an environment of unbelieving, immoral peers, under the instruction of unbelieving or misguided teachers, working from an openly-advertised unbelieving worldview is somehow consistent with the commands to love, protect, and teach our children.
The command to teach our children about God, and model obedience in faith for them is violated by giving them over to people who do the exact opposite for the majority of time a child is awake.
Can you imagine this conversation?
Israelite: So, Moses, God tells me to instruct my son thoroughly in the Law, to love and protect him, and train him in the way they should go, right?
Moses: Yep.
Israelite: Awesome. I think I'll do that by giving the majority of his young life over to the instruction of unbelievers, and have most of his surroundings pillars of immorality. But I'll do a lot of devotions at home. Sound good?
Moses: Looks good to me.
Idelette
Puritan Board Graduate
I don't see the difference in service whether its a public school or any other community outreach. There will always be an element of worldliness when reaching out to the community. I wonder if you look at every public library or courthouse or park and think the same thing? Yet, these places are arguably just as heathen! The church is not going there to help promote a school agenda, they are going to serve the Lord by helping them paint! We are called to live in the world, to be lights, to minister to others, and to glorify God both in word and deed. We were created for good works....regardless of whether the children are there or not, or whether anyone even recognizes the work that the church has done!
As believers, we are to do all things as unto the Lord, pleasing in His sight and for His glory! So we work not unto men, but unto the Lord! Inadvertently, we promote heathens all the time......the cars we drive, the clothes we buy, the places we eat, even the toothpaste we use....all major contributors to "heathen" causes of one variety or another! If we take these issues too far, we'd be better off living as the Amish sustaining ourselves so as to prevent any promotion of heathen causes. But, I for one, think the Lord made us not to divide ourselves so severely from the world that we should live in christian communes...but that we would be morally separate from the world! That we should still be in and yet not of this world.....that we might serve Him and glorify His name!
As believers, we are to do all things as unto the Lord, pleasing in His sight and for His glory! So we work not unto men, but unto the Lord! Inadvertently, we promote heathens all the time......the cars we drive, the clothes we buy, the places we eat, even the toothpaste we use....all major contributors to "heathen" causes of one variety or another! If we take these issues too far, we'd be better off living as the Amish sustaining ourselves so as to prevent any promotion of heathen causes. But, I for one, think the Lord made us not to divide ourselves so severely from the world that we should live in christian communes...but that we would be morally separate from the world! That we should still be in and yet not of this world.....that we might serve Him and glorify His name!
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
I think I'm understanding your concern, and would not override a conviction. Many times convictions are of the Holy Spirit and are for the specific purpose and calling he has on an individual's life.
But what you say here
sounds like the reason you are volunteering to clean this school is because it is poor. Normally, outsiders in a ministry aren't responsible or needed to clean publicly supported schools. They have janitors and their management is responsible to keep the premises clean and safe. This sounds like a situation where something is broken, and they are, for whatever reason poor and needy- isn't that why the ministry group is targeting this school to clean it?
You also mention there are Christians, people of your church who are struggling to set a godly example amidst this mess. It appears the government is utterly failing to do its job and Christian volunteers have to come in from the outside, with their own resources and clean up their mess amidst all the humanist nonsense promoted around them as they do clean up the mess that philosophy has wrought
While I would not override an abiding conviction (God may have other reasons for that), what you have said seems to make the case more for doing this, prayerfully, with a servant's heart, and unto the glory of God alone.
If you pray about this and do not have peace, do not do it. But if you ask God for grace to do this, please let us know how God used this for His Honor and His Glory.
And what message is this kind of response sending to the kids who are attending a public school at your church(es) or the teachers/administrators GOD has called to be light in the schools?Jumping in here.
For starters, I was brought up with the blessing of homeschooling. I really enjoyed it and learned a lot from it. However, the ability to give a child a Christian education assumes a couple things: a) you (as a parent) are wealthy enough to afford sending that child to a Christian school or to homeschool them b) you as a parent have enough time to work with your children.
I notice a common thing in all of those scriptures, though: all of them are referring to spiritual training and not to reading, writing, and mathematics. Parents are certainly called to train their children in the Lord, but it doesn't follow that they can't delegate other things, even to a public school. I know many good Christian kids who have come out of the public schools, and have even shone the light of Christ into public schools.
There's a good case to be made, in fact, that the public schools are the largest mission field in America today (or maybe second to higher education).
For starters, I was brought up with the blessing of homeschooling. I really enjoyed it and learned a lot from it. However, the ability to give a child a Christian education assumes a couple things: a) you (as a parent) are wealthy enough to afford sending that child to a Christian school or to homeschool them b) you as a parent have enough time to work with your children.
I notice a common thing in all of those scriptures, though: all of them are referring to spiritual training and not to reading, writing, and mathematics. Parents are certainly called to train their children in the Lord, but it doesn't follow that they can't delegate other things, even to a public school. I know many good Christian kids who have come out of the public schools, and have even shone the light of Christ into public schools.
There's a good case to be made, in fact, that the public schools are the largest mission field in America today (or maybe second to higher education).
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
You have asked a couple of questions.
First, no, given the hardness of your position, you should not provide service to the poor and needy. You would just poison the atmosphere for those who wish to provide a witness to the community. You might devote that time to prayer.
Second, you should not be dishonest if asked. If you are that far out of sync with your church leadership, you should either try to teach them of your position, or find another church.
First, no, given the hardness of your position, you should not provide service to the poor and needy. You would just poison the atmosphere for those who wish to provide a witness to the community. You might devote that time to prayer.
Second, you should not be dishonest if asked. If you are that far out of sync with your church leadership, you should either try to teach them of your position, or find another church.
dr_parsley
Puritan Board Freshman
(new here - 
)
But to the OP:
1) Try some submission and humility. Mention your concerns to your eldership in a spirit of total submission and let them explain it to you.
2) If you still don't agree, do a "please excuse me as the weaker brother in this but I think I don't want to ruin it for you".
What you can't do is to pit yourself against the opinion of your church and leave it at that or to make some excuse, because that will take you out of fellowship through dishonesty and pride. I often get into trouble for too much honesty, but it's better that than covering up difference of opinion and let it fester. If differences of opinion are open and gracious then one develops an atmosphere within the church where disagreements can happen with little risk of dissension.
Now as to the issue itself, both sides of the "argument" seem to me valid. If you let the school be grimy, it might be closed down and replaced with a better school, but it's only a possibility. On the other hand we love our enemies and do good to them. Given two valid arguments, leave the detailed strategy up to God and do good to others.
)But to the OP:
1) Try some submission and humility. Mention your concerns to your eldership in a spirit of total submission and let them explain it to you.
2) If you still don't agree, do a "please excuse me as the weaker brother in this but I think I don't want to ruin it for you".
What you can't do is to pit yourself against the opinion of your church and leave it at that or to make some excuse, because that will take you out of fellowship through dishonesty and pride. I often get into trouble for too much honesty, but it's better that than covering up difference of opinion and let it fester. If differences of opinion are open and gracious then one develops an atmosphere within the church where disagreements can happen with little risk of dissension.
Now as to the issue itself, both sides of the "argument" seem to me valid. If you let the school be grimy, it might be closed down and replaced with a better school, but it's only a possibility. On the other hand we love our enemies and do good to them. Given two valid arguments, leave the detailed strategy up to God and do good to others.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
The scriptures may be referring to spiritual training and not the three R's, but don't think that they're not getting spiritual training there; that's the real issue. If it were simply math skills and reading skills, the long knives would not come out every time we bring this up for discussion. But that is not the case.
As for children shining the light of Christ into the public schools, I'd love to see a scripture reference on that. Nowhere is that even implied - our children are not to be the shock-troops of evangelism; we are.
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
No and we wouldn't let anyone disgrace the house of God either, however, Jesus did cause a fish to produce a coin so that Peter could give it to Caesar. I'm sure that coin along with all the other coins could be said to help Caesar, who was worshipped as a god, promote his agenda.
-----Added 6/22/2009 at 11:54:45 EST-----
Josh, he did ask us if he were wrong to not go and help the school and that's why we responded the way did. Here's his quote:
If he hadn't asked this, then I certainly would have just shook my head and went to the next thread. When someone asks if we think they should or shouldn't do something we are going to tell them our opinion. Also, the title is asking if he should. Some piece of him wanted us to confirm his actions.
Fly Caster
Puritan Board Sophomore
The argument that our Christian kids are to be left in public schools to influence the heathen is not very different from an argument that the Hebrew kids should have been left behind in Egypt to be "salt & light" there.
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
No, Jeremy, you're not wrong. You should obey your conscience, and humbly approach the session to let them know why you cannot participate.
Agreed. If his conscious doesn't allow him even though it might not be a sinful act, the fact that he thinks it is would cause him to sin if he did do it. We all have our hang-ups and it's good to learn the other side of what we believe, but only God can confirm our belief or change them to a biblical stance.
There are many "good things" (civil goods) that we can do with our time.
I could pick up litter on my days off, I could help clean my local park. I could adopt a highway. There are enough things such as this to eat ALL of my spare time.
If a church begins to primarily do these "civil good" sort of things and if there is pressure for its members to do these sorts of things, this is a huge waste of resources for the kingdom.
Sure, it's all good, but again, "the good" if often the enemy of "the best"and the church ought to be wise stewards of its time. To organize such "civil goods" over direct witness is not wise for a church.
Therefore, if Jeremy thinks the idea of cleaning public tax-supported schools (which have janitors) is lame (by the way, the gubbermint aint going to clean the homes of homeschoolers) then by no means should he engage in this waste of time for himself.
I could pick up litter on my days off, I could help clean my local park. I could adopt a highway. There are enough things such as this to eat ALL of my spare time.
If a church begins to primarily do these "civil good" sort of things and if there is pressure for its members to do these sorts of things, this is a huge waste of resources for the kingdom.
Sure, it's all good, but again, "the good" if often the enemy of "the best"and the church ought to be wise stewards of its time. To organize such "civil goods" over direct witness is not wise for a church.
Therefore, if Jeremy thinks the idea of cleaning public tax-supported schools (which have janitors) is lame (by the way, the gubbermint aint going to clean the homes of homeschoolers) then by no means should he engage in this waste of time for himself.
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
I actually disagree--there are, for sure, Covenant children in public schools.
The examples about Muslim centers, etc, don't fit, because there are not, presumably, Covenant children there. Covenant children are Covenant children, regardless of how their parents choose to train them.
-----Added 6/22/2009 at 01:54:55 EST-----
Oh, but I fully support you obeying your conscience! I am more commenting that I don't think it is a sin.
The examples about Muslim centers, etc, don't fit, because there are not, presumably, Covenant children there. Covenant children are Covenant children, regardless of how their parents choose to train them.
-----Added 6/22/2009 at 01:54:55 EST-----
Oh, but I fully support you obeying your conscience! I am more commenting that I don't think it is a sin.
Gloria
Puritan Board Sophomore
I haven't read through all the posts yet, but one thing just hit me. Don't we engage with non-Christians organizations all the time? Yet does it mean we are supporting the spread of the heathen gospel of hedonism. I mean painting a school, I think, falls way to the bottom of the list of something that constitutes support when compared with giving money to an organization or company who's owner(s) believes in tolerance and hedonism. Anyone use windows? or any microsoft software? Bill Gates does support "Gay Rights" and spreads his message of tolerance around the globe, does that mean you are supporting his cause by patronizing his products? I don't think so...
But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.
All I could muster was a "wow" but you've summed up my thoughts on this quite well. Thank you.
Idelette
Puritan Board Graduate
I agree with you Josh, except he did ask "Should I help clean a Public School?"....so we were simply responding to that. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think I was trying to press him to do otherwise....I was simply sharing my opinion since he asked. If Jeremy truly feels that this would be a sin for him, then he shouldn't go against his conscience and partake in this work. He should simply approach the session and tell them why he feels that way....I'm sure they will respect him and relieve him of any obligations that he may have had.
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Beth Ellen Nagle
Puritan Board Senior
There is a difference between saying something is sin and something is not wise. Doing the work would not be sin...is it wise? That is debatable... and if it is matter of conscience then don't violate that. The main thing is to not feel bound to do that if you don't feel particularly good about wanting to invest your time in that way as there are plenty of other avenues of service. Some folks feel comfortable with pushing tracts on the street. I would never do that to be honest. I evangelize in other ways.
Idelette
Puritan Board Graduate
I'm out of thanks...so I just wanted to thank you. I also wanted to apologize, I guess I only skimmed the original OP and thought that he was asking for our opinions...... my apologies ,Jeremy, if I've caused any offense.....it was truly not intended!
Beth Ellen Nagle
Puritan Board Senior
((hug)) I realized I had not addressed this point.
The comparisons given are not related to each other at all.
Microsoft: I buy a product.
School: I give and volunteer my help.
Microsoft: The company's mission is the computer business, and does some other things on the side that are bad.
School: Its central mission is bad.
Microsoft: The company is responsible to God for what it does with the money it has earned. I am not responsible for what it does with its money.
School: I am responsible for how I spend my time, and that time would be specifically spent to advance their ungodly mission.
I am not seeking to separate myself from all organizations having anything to do with the world. I am refusing to fight for the enemy and make his institutions more appealing or successful.
In one case, I volunteer to give active aid to an organization whose central purpose is evil. In the other, I buy a legitimate product from an organization whose central mission is not evil. They are not analogous at all.
You would have caused offense if you attacked my character or motivations. Questioning my judgment is perfectly acceptable and good, and part of why this board is great.
Jeremy,
I guess I don't understand how the central purpose of the school is evil, based on the things you mentioned in your opening comments. Yes, it sounds like it has some views expressed on the walls that are questionable but, for example, having a misinformed view on global warming evidence of an evil central purpose. I don't know - I don't know the school or those involved - you do.
Clearly it seems like this is something that gives you severe cause for concern and, on that basis, I think you would be fully justified if you graciously told your church leaders that you could not do it on grounds of conscience.
I think I would come out on the other side if the decision was mine (and have done so with not dissimilar projects in NYC and London) but then maybe I grown too accustomed to environments where Christianity is not highly regarded and working within those parameters.
I guess I don't understand how the central purpose of the school is evil, based on the things you mentioned in your opening comments. Yes, it sounds like it has some views expressed on the walls that are questionable but, for example, having a misinformed view on global warming evidence of an evil central purpose. I don't know - I don't know the school or those involved - you do.
Clearly it seems like this is something that gives you severe cause for concern and, on that basis, I think you would be fully justified if you graciously told your church leaders that you could not do it on grounds of conscience.
I think I would come out on the other side if the decision was mine (and have done so with not dissimilar projects in NYC and London) but then maybe I grown too accustomed to environments where Christianity is not highly regarded and working within those parameters.
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