Should I help clean a Public School?

[smhbbag]

I guess I don't understand how the central purpose of the school is evil, based on the things you mentioned in your opening comments. Yes, it sounds like it has some views expressed on the walls that are questionable but, for example, having a misinformed view on global warming evidence of an evil central purpose. I don't know - I don't know the school or those involved - you do.

Those things (global warming, mindless tolerance, etc.) are but symptoms of the central evil of the institution. I'm not speaking of just one school that I know particular things about - this is a broad brush against all of them.

Their central goal: educating children while specifically removing our Lord and His Word from the exercise. That's evil, especially when done toward the children of believers, where they will inevitably (regardless of their perceived kindness) lead children into false ideas, feelings and perspectives. It is not possible to educate children while ignoring or denying Christ and not lead them astray in some way. And Christ tells us these folks would be better off with a millstone about their neck at the bottom of the ocean. I don't quite understand why we would voluntarily send our children to an institution like that.

 

[Gloria]

I notice a common thing in all of those scriptures, though: all of them are referring to spiritual training and not to reading, writing, and mathematics. Parents are certainly called to train their children in the Lord, but it doesn't follow that they can't delegate other things, even to a public school. I know many good Christian kids who have come out of the public schools, and have even shone the light of Christ into public schools.

The scriptures may be referring to spiritual training and not the three R's, but don't think that they're not getting spiritual training there; that's the real issue. If it were simply math skills and reading skills, the long knives would not come out every time we bring this up for discussion. But that is not the case.

As for children shining the light of Christ into the public schools, I'd love to see a scripture reference on that. Nowhere is that even implied - our children are not to be the shock-troops of evangelism; we are.

ITA with this. Totally....

 

[BJClark]

kvanlaan;

As for children shining the light of Christ into the public schools, I'd love to see a scripture reference on that. Nowhere is that even implied - our children are not to be the shock-troops of evangelism; we are.

Was not Moses raised in heathen schools? And Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah? And did they not give a witness for God in those schools?

Dan 1:4 Children in whom [was] no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as [had] ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

Dan 1:6 Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: Dan 1:7 Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel [the name] of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego.

However, if you can not in good conscience do the work, then don't..

Their central goal: educating children while specifically removing our Lord and His Word from the exercise.

It is MY responsibility as my children's mother to teach them the things of God, not the schools...and if/when a teacher teaches contrary to our Christian beliefs I can certainly take that up with the teacher..and call them to task as to the subject's they are to be teaching.

And thus far, they are not taught Religious studies at school.

 

[smhbbag]

The fact that God uses a situation for his glory, and that He sustains His chosen in those times, is not an endorsement for us to willingly put ourselves there.

 

[chbrooking]

Perhaps, but it does indicate that there isn't "always a way" to avoid it.

I can think of several scenarios in which a public school would be a necessary decision, none of them requiring slavery in Egypt or exile to Babylon, either.

This is just a drive-by post. I'm not a fan of public education, but I regard some of your rhetoric as a bit over the top. That said, I'll let you guys continue to duke it out.

 

[smhbbag]

Perhaps, but it does indicate that there isn't "always a way" to avoid it.

I specifically excluded times where the ungodly education was inflicted on the children/parents by force. This thread is about public schooling in the United States primarily, and I stick by my "always a way" for a believing parent here, assuming the local chapter of Child Protective Services hasn't kidnapped the kids.

I can think of several scenarios in which a public school would be a necessary decision, none of them requiring slavery in Egypt or exile to Babylon, either.

What would that be?

It is MY responsibility as my children's mother to teach them the things of God, not the schools...and if/when a teacher teaches contrary to our Christian beliefs I can certainly take that up with the teacher..and call them to task as to the subject's they are to be teaching.

And thus far, they are not taught Religious studies at school.

Respectfully, yes, they are taught Religious Studies every day at public school. They teach contrary to your Christian beliefs every day and every hour of the week. There is no neutrality. If one is not teaching Christianity, he is teaching Anti-Christianity. Every class a child takes in public school is a Religious Studies course.

Any time a teacher breaks up a fight and teaches the students about peaceful interaction and problem-solving without the name of Christ, that is religious teaching. It (very subtly) informs the student that the Biblical underpinnings of relationships and respect (that all are made in the image of God, that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, etc.) are not necessary.

When a teacher corrects a student who has been cheating, the student will learn that cheating is wrong because it only hurts themselves, or some such nonsense. This implicitly shows the student that proper moral behavior (not cheating) can rightly be achieved on a humanistic base. A real education would instruct the student that cheating is wrong because we are to be holy as God is holy, and God is not a deceiver.

There are an infinite number of other examples. These may seem small or minor, but over 12 years in the system they work their way into young minds in pernicious ways. Children chiefly, in my experience, learn to rely on their outward appearance to satisfy God because that is the only lesson they ever learned was important regarding morality in school. "Good" students are the most susceptible to this.

Correction of moral behavior done in an unbelieving way can be more harmful to the child spiritually than no correction at all. And this is just one category of the things we subject children in public school to.

 

[chbrooking]

An illiterate (or even barely literate) woman's husband dies or abandons her. She has no family. She (obviously) has no education. She goes to work (2 jobs) for peanuts to make ends meet. No money for Christian school. State is on her back to account for the education of her 4 children.

That's not an unrealistic scenario at all. And it's awfully easy to say that the church will help, or a school will give a scholarship. Christian schools usually run on a shoestring. And I've seen churches think that they've done an amazing service to a family because they gave them $500 when the family lost their home in a flood. $500 won't feed a family for very long. And it certainly wouldn't educate 4 kids. It's easy to claim that assistance is available. But as one who has on multiple occasions cooked his last cup of rice not knowing where the next one was coming from, I can tell you that "surely help is available" doesn't offer much solace to those in need.

By the way, I agree that you should not violate your conscience. I think your elders will understand. They may not agree -- and I hope you tone down your rhetoric when you speak with them. But don't do what you believe is sin.

Like I said... I intended to be drive by. Don't look for me to continue in this conversation.

 

[smhbbag]

An illiterate (or even barely literate) woman's husband dies or abandons her. She has no family. She (obviously) has no education. She goes to work (2 jobs) for peanuts to make ends meet. No money for Christian school. State is on her back to account for the education of her 4 children.

That's not an unrealistic scenario at all. And it's awfully easy to say that the church will help, or a school will give a scholarship. Christian schools usually run on a shoestring. And I've seen churches think that they've done an amazing service to a family because they gave them $500 when the family lost their home in a flood. $500 won't feed a family for very long. And it certainly wouldn't educate 4 kids. It's easy to claim that assistance is available. But as one who has on multiple occasions cooked his last cup of rice not knowing where the next one was coming from, I can tell you that "surely help is available" doesn't offer much solace to those in need.

If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.

 

[satz]

If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.

God has decreed that children should be brought up in the fear and nurture of him, not that they should be homeschooled or christian schooled. In the case of a family that is forced by circumstances to consider using the public school system, how do you know that God's provision will not be in the form of preserving their children in the public school like he preserved Daniel in Babylon's "school"? There is no where near sufficient bible proof to ask a family to move six states away instead of using a public school.

 

[Kiffin]

hmmmm....

I went to public school. To be more exact, I attended public school K-12, 1 year in a technical school, and then 3 semesters at a local college. After attending all those demonic, child sacrificing, idolatrous, sin promoting institutions, I think I came out okay .

These Satanic institutions taught me how to: read and write, interact with many types of people, stay fit (gym class!), work for deadlines, think critically, etc etc. After all that CHAOS, I attended Bible College got my BA in Theology and right now I am trucking through summer Hebrew class in Seminary with an intent to graduate in December with an MA. I am okay.

My thoughts:
-painting the school will create a relationship with the school. It may possibly give the churches involved future opportunities to interact with students, staff, and faculty.
-what will the community think of the churches involved versus the churches that aren't? Who has more credibility?

 

[smhbbag]

God has decreed that children should be brought up in the fear and nurture of him, not that they should be homeschooled or christian schooled. In the case of a family that is forced by circumstances to consider using the public school system, how do you know that God's provision will not be in the form of preserving their children in the public school like he preserved Daniel in Babylon's "school"? There is no where near sufficient bible proof to ask a family to move six states away instead of using a public school.

Whether it is sin for children to be freely given to unbelievers to mold according to an unbelieving worldview is the entire issue. And if it is sin, then it would justify any means to avoid it.

To voluntarily send a child among wolves to be taught, while trusting He will take away the consequences of the bad decision, is to tempt God in a way I would not want to flirt with.

 

[Theognome]

Clean it with a bulldozer.

Theognome

 

[kvanlaan]

If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.

Jeremy,

...and if no-one will lift a finger to help, are they (we) not worse than infidels???

Yes.

PS - ditto to Bill, too.

 

[historyb]

I went to a public school and a Christian school, the place I found about drugs and all that bad stuff was at the Christian School

 

[Brian Withnell]

I disagree with your caricature of public schools. Which being part of your premise is the problem. I also disagree with the presupposition that it is a majority of their lives. I disagree that public schools are what you claim them to be uniformly. Are some schools what you say? Yes. But an informed parent has more influence in a public school than you realize. Can public schools teach everything that you want taught? No. Christianity is not explicitly taught, nor is any religious view. That is why I choose to home school my kids.

BUT, while that is true, there are bare facts (e.g., 2 + 2 = 4) that are taught which are taught regardless of what religious background one has. It doesn't matter what religion a person is, knowing "The sum of the measure of the interior angles of a triangle is 180 degrees" is basic knowledge. What is more important than even that knowledge is teaching how to think and question. Teaching students the basics of chemistry has no moral content. Teaching students how to write programs on computers has no moral content.

What you so rigorously state public schools are teaching is exactly what we don't teach ... and what public school teachers lament isn't taught at home either. The single most important thing that we cannot teach is moral values and ethics. At least not anything other than the basics of cheating gets you a zero, breaking the rules gets you handed over to the administration.

Just to let you know, I teach math, and while I do teach that all logical conclusions start with axioms (things taken as true without proof ... presuppositions if you will) that is the extent of what I have time to cover in math classes. Can math be taught with Christ as the center? Yes, I do so at home. But the total time involved is minuscule compared to the time spent teaching the content of math even with my own children that you are not ceding 8 hours of instruction in godlessness to then counter with 10 minutes at home. At home we have Bible as a class ... but other than maybe 5 or 10 minutes every few weeks there isn't much of Christian doctrine taught in math class at home. Nor is there much in history, though arguably more. In science, there is a more pervasive presence of looking at "the book of God's work" but only in those subjects that are not lab based. Physics and Chemistry are ones in which it is just as rare to be able to bring anything of religion into the picture (10 minutes every couple of weeks, if not less, with the rest content in the subject).

Your caricature of public schools is not what I have seen, it certainly isn't what I teach. Do I teach Christian doctrine? No, I teach mathematics. Can mathematics be taught with an occasional excursion into the basis of thought which under girds all logic and reason and then acknowledge that the only universe that exists is the one which God created and that in order to rightly understand it takes the axioms which model that universe that God created? Yes. As a percent of the time I spend in teaching my own children math, what amount is that? Less than 1%. So of the "8 hours a day" (9 - 4 here by the way) the amount of time you need to supplement what I teach is in total? Add whatever you spend in family devotions, put in another 5 minutes to supplement what I have taught (and oh yes, make sure you know what I am teaching ... just in case you get a rogue teacher that does teach religion).

What you assume is that public schools are always teaching exactly the opposite of what you would teach, and that you have no time to go over what was taught, familiarize yourself and know what is happening in your child's life, or do anything of appropriate supervision of education. You are saying there is nothing but a dichotomy of private instruction or public schooling. I disagree, and I welcome parents not only to talk (email in this day and age is a great benefit) but to actually visit in the classroom. (Boy would I welcome a parent of little "johnny" who is disruptive, disrespectful, and doesn't have his homework!) If you delegate the responsibility of education to a Christian school, do you make sure they are not teaching semi-pelagian garbage to your child? Do you know they aren't teaching heresy? The only way to do that is to know what is being taught, and go over it with your child every day, just like you would have to in a public school.

If you want to be sure of what is being taught every second of every day, then you better either do it yourself (I love home schooling) or by making sure you are there when it is taught. For many people, that isn't possible. Delegation of instruction is as old as the Samuel being given to the temple to be brought up. Was that a good trust? Was Eli a good father that Hannah's son should be brought up by him? Of course not! Eli was a wicked father that did not discipline his sons and so he lost them both and died on the same day. Did God use Samuel greatly in any case? Yes.

If you state "the only acceptable way to educate a child is to home school them, and education is not a delegable responsibility" then at least you have something on which to stand ... but if you allow delegation of education at all, then you have to provide oversight of that education.

I do not believe that the education of our children is non-delegable. We take them to church on Sunday and allow them to hear a Sunday School teacher. We sit with them in church and allow the pastor to teach them. (I have even allowed my children to go to church with someone else when I was sick! Your position would be that was sin, because I allowed someone to teach my child without filtering it.)

If education is delegable, then that does not relieve you of the responsibility to assure they are given an education in Godliness. You still have to know what they are taught in all areas. If you are going to challenge what is being taught, you are going to have to know a whole lot more than just what reading blurbs off the internet will tell you. Having children is a huge responsibility, and it is not for the faint of heart. If a parent is irresponsible enough to send their children to school and not stay involved, they should not have become a parent in the first place.

But I still disagree with your assertion. You have not proven your premise.

 

[satz]

Whether it is sin for children to be freely given to unbelievers to mold according to an unbelieving worldview is the entire issue. And if it is sin, then it would justify any means to avoid it.

To voluntarily send a child among wolves to be taught, while trusting He will take away the consequences of the bad decision, is to tempt God in a way I would not want to flirt with.

As I said, the sin as described by the bible is not training a child to fear the Lord. If a child has to attend a public school, it just means the parent or parents have to expand more effort. If being educated by unbelievers was in itself a sin, Daniel would have refused the entire programme that the Babylonians put him through, not just the food, but he did not.

There is a difference between chosing to place a child into PS to preserve the family lifestyle and doing so because of genuine difficulties, economic or otherwise. A individual christian may decide that he is unable to do that, but there is no bible warrant for making a blanket condemnation of christians who do chose to use the PS when forced to by circumstances.

And I don't believe (at least for now) it is tempting God because a) there is no clear command of God violated and b) God has always shown he can and will preserve his people spiritually in difficult circumstances, whether Daniel in Babylon, Joseph in Egypt or countless other examples.

 

[kvanlaan]

But I still disagree with your assertion. You have not proven your premise.

And I can give you a personal example of the public school where I went for 1 year that is everything negative that has been alluded to and oh so much more.

Now you have not proved your premise.

-----Added 6/22/2009 at 10:21:33 EST-----

Weren't we talking about cleaning a school at some point?

 

[calgal]

Jeremy with all due respect, you do not have to participate if this service project truly is against your conscience. One thing to consider is that the parents ultimately determine how well any kind of schooling is being done and what kind of experience a child will have. There are homeschool horror stories, Christian School horror stories and Public School horror stories enough to write a library full of books (angst filled no less). I am stepping away now.

 

[Gloria]

I haven't read through all the posts yet, but one thing just hit me. Don't we engage with non-Christians organizations all the time? Yet does it mean we are supporting the spread of the heathen gospel of hedonism. I mean painting a school, I think, falls way to the bottom of the list of something that constitutes support when compared with giving money to an organization or company who's owner(s) believes in tolerance and hedonism. Anyone use windows? or any microsoft software? Bill Gates does support "Gay Rights" and spreads his message of tolerance around the globe, does that mean you are supporting his cause by patronizing his products? I don't think so...

But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.

All I could muster was a "wow" but you've summed up my thoughts on this quite well. Thank you.

I realized I had not addressed this point.

The comparisons given are not related to each other at all.

Microsoft: I buy a product.
School: I give and volunteer my help.

Microsoft: The company's mission is the computer business, and does some other things on the side that are bad.
School: Its central mission is bad.

Microsoft: The company is responsible to God for what it does with the money it has earned. I am not responsible for what it does with its money.
School: I am responsible for how I spend my time, and that time would be specifically spent to advance their ungodly mission.

I am not seeking to separate myself from all organizations having anything to do with the world. I am refusing to fight for the enemy and make his institutions more appealing or successful.

In one case, I volunteer to give active aid to an organization whose central purpose is evil. In the other, I buy a legitimate product from an organization whose central mission is not evil. They are not analogous at all.

I'm out of thanks...so I just wanted to thank you. I also wanted to apologize, I guess I only skimmed the original OP and thought that he was asking for our opinions...... my apologies ,Jeremy, if I've caused any offense.....it was truly not intended!

You would have caused offense if you attacked my character or motivations. Questioning my judgment is perfectly acceptable and good, and part of why this board is great.

If you feel like this (in the red) is what you will be doing by painting the school then do what you feel. Others have already responded with how you shold approach the elders.

I must say that I don't think the example used is completely unrelated. Here's why using the same example: In buying producs from Microsoft, you're supporting Bill Gates financially. This allows him to stay in the public arena and have the funds to continue to make his voice heard regarding so called "gay rights." I don't feel comfortable placing "business" in a completely separate lane from spirituality. Everything in life has a relation to God because God is sovereign.

I can apply the same logic you've used to say that the fact that you KNOW Bill Gates is a supporter of "gay rights" implicates you as a supporter of "gay rights" because you are helping to maintain his platform by buying his products. I see that you've tried to separate this matter by making it an issue of what he does with the money and influence based on his own convictions and priorities from you personally going out and supporting 'gay rights' yourself, but the fact that you KNOW that he will use the platform for an ungodly purpose while still purchasing Microsoft products implicates you as well. Hope that was clear. I'm no fully convinced of this, but again this is just another presentation, following the logic you're using in regards to painting the school (from the OP and the post I'm responding to).

Again, do what you the word says is right. If the Comforter is convicting you and warning you that painting this school is a sin against God, then don't do it. Then use wisdom and be gracious when sharing your convictions with the elders. Let it be conviction by the Spirit through God's word and not some personal preference. If it's a personal preference, my reponse remains "wow."

 

[chbrooking]

Okay, I can't resist. You've successfully drawn me in.

An illiterate (or even barely literate) woman's husband dies or abandons her. She has no family. She (obviously) has no education. She goes to work (2 jobs) for peanuts to make ends meet. No money for Christian school. State is on her back to account for the education of her 4 children.

That's not an unrealistic scenario at all. And it's awfully easy to say that the church will help, or a school will give a scholarship. Christian schools usually run on a shoestring. And I've seen churches think that they've done an amazing service to a family because they gave them $500 when the family lost their home in a flood. $500 won't feed a family for very long. And it certainly wouldn't educate 4 kids. It's easy to claim that assistance is available. But as one who has on multiple occasions cooked his last cup of rice not knowing where the next one was coming from, I can tell you that "surely help is available" doesn't offer much solace to those in need.

If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.

You obviously missed the bolded sentence in my quote.

Sure. And how is church #4289 going to know that she's not a swindler? Sadly, they knock on church doors every day. The first question church #4289 is going to ask is, "Why are you calling us, when we're six states away?" The sort of financial outlay you are talking about is beyond the ability of most church budgets. I agree with you that churches SHOULD help her. But not all churches CAN help her. And the fact that they should is no reason to condemn her for not finding one that WOULD.

It is so easy to SAY that someone will help, particularly for someone who is not in present need.

 

[Brian Withnell]

Whether it is sin for children to be freely given to unbelievers to mold according to an unbelieving worldview is the entire issue.

Your view is wrong. That is not what the public schools are about. It is not what I do, and I teach in a public school. You equate the mission of the public school to this, and you are off base.

If that was what the mission of a public school was, then I might agree with you. But that is not the mission of any public school I have seen, it was not the mission of the public school I attended when I was young, and it certainly is not the mission I have every day in teaching. I do not give an unbelieving world view to my students, and for the most part, there is no time to even discuss anything of world view. It isn't happening in my classes. It isn't happening in any math class in my school (it better not be, or the teacher would be in trouble with not only the parents, but the department for not covering content, and the administration for not teaching "bell-to-bell"). While I cannot say for those classes I have not visited, I have visited the same is true there. Some things I would probably think would be a little "dicey" and if I had a child in one of those classes, I'd be careful to monitor what is taught, and be certain that what is taught is either countered at home (by staying on top of the notes the child brings home and discussing what was taught) or was presented with multiple views.

Could it be that you have taken the worst case ever presented, then made it the "norm" for all the schools? Is it possible that you have a really bad teacher in a school that could be actively doing that? Yes. Does that make it the mission of public schools? No. Is it possible that one teacher at a Christian school is teaching pelegianism? Yes. Does that mean the school is a den of demons with a mission to corrupt those who attend and drive them all to hell? No.

Your brush is too broad. From what I can see, you are attempting to make it easy for you to categorize things as "good" and "bad" altogether without individual investigation. It isn't easy to make good, sound decisions based on knowledge ... it is altogether too easy to make "sound bite" judgments on things. And it is even more difficult to understand within the context of this age were *every* institution is at best an admixture of good and evil (even the best of churches have mixture and error).

There is light and salt at work in the public schools. There is evil as well. Just as there is at best in any church both truth and error, yet we do not cast off all churches in a call for perfection.

While I think you are correct in not helping, I believe the reason is more out of what has been said that you could not do so with a spirit of charity.

 

[Brian Withnell]

If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.

Jeremy,

...and if no-one will lift a finger to help, are they (we) not worse than infidels???

Yes.

PS - ditto to Bill, too.

Three things:
1) the aid would have to be for what is needed, and even though you see it as a horrid thing to send children to public school, I see it as not the best, but not wrong.
2) I know what our church *can* and what it *cannot* do. We have a deacons' fund that we have to be very careful with. We are helping those who are in the church first, and we help them as much as the need as we are able. That does not mean we have the resources to send even two children to a private Christian school.

And just one more thing. Those that say that private schools ought to give such a parent's children "scholarships" so they can attend, how much do you donate to the school so they can pay a living wage to their teachers? The pay for a teacher in a public school is horribly low ... the county I work in pays math and science teachers so little they could triple their pay in private industry (I know I could, and was making more than twice what I do now, even after 7 years teaching). I make probably 2 or 3 times what the pay is in the average Christian school in my county.

If you aren't willing to pay the teachers a living wage, and you aren't willing to cough up $5,000 to $10,000 a year per child for educating someone else's children, then don't complain when others don't do the same.

Let's look at the premise in reverse ... that is instead of saying because it is God's will, there has to be a way, look at the opposite proof:

Because it is not possible for some people to find a way to send their children to private Christian school, and they cannot home school, then it must be that it is NOT against God's law to send children to public school.​

I don't buy that position. I don't buy it from a theology position, but it would seem you would ... if not, let me know what your disagreement is; I really want to know. It would seem that a person confronted with an impossible choice would be able to say they know God doesn't forbid something because it is impossible to avoid.

BTW, my disagreement is that in a fallen world, even if what would be best is to home school a child, or to send them to private school, it is not always possible (and not sin for someone to be in that position--Job had lots of counsel from those that were ready to condemn him for sin because of the tragic events surrounding him, yet God condemned them, not Job).

 

[JoeRe4mer]

I don't see the difference in service whether its a public school or any other community outreach. There will always be an element of worldliness when reaching out to the community. I wonder if you look at every public library or courthouse or park and think the same thing? Yet, these places are arguably just as heathen! The church is not going there to help promote a school agenda, they are going to serve the Lord by helping them paint! We are called to live in the world, to be lights, to minister to others, and to glorify God both in word and deed. We were created for good works....regardless of whether the children are there or not, or whether anyone even recognizes the work that the church has done!

I think this pretty much says it all in a more articulate way than I could.

The fact is that public schools like all of our societies public institutions are mixed with various and often contradictory ideals. Simply hoping the school falls down will not change the fact that there are many young souls there in need of the gospel. Your witness is vital in areas like this and I think that this act of public service may put you in a good position to spread the gospel, that alone is reason enough.

 

[Brian Withnell]

But I still disagree with your assertion. You have not proven your premise.

And I can give you a personal example of the public school where I went for 1 year that is everything negative that has been alluded to and oh so much more.

Now you have not proved your premise.

-----Added 6/22/2009 at 10:21:33 EST-----

Weren't we talking about cleaning a school at some point?

Point of logic. You do not prove any positive assertion by example. For instance, take the hypothesis

All prime numbers are odd​

Now I cite examples:

3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43​

In fact, I could cite examples forever. But the problem is that it takes only a single counter example to prove the premise false. In this case the number 2 is prime, but it is even, not odd.

Your citing a single example where bad things happen is not proof. (Your experience in a public school is anecdotal evidence, not proof.)

But if I find a single counter example, the positive assertion is proven wrong. My citing my own classroom where I teach children pure mathematics without contradicting anything in scripture is a counter example and proves the premise false.

You did not prove your premise, but I did disprove it.

 

[ubermadchen]

As for children shining the light of Christ into the public schools, I'd love to see a scripture reference on that. Nowhere is that even implied - our children are not to be the shock-troops of evangelism; we are.

I didn't know there was an age requirement in order to evangelize.

For the record, I was a heathen in public school for most of my life but was confronted by the gospel through my Christian friends who attended public school with me. I thank God for placing them there because they were definitely lights in the darkness for me.

 

[Brian Withnell]

I didn't know there was an age requirement in order to evangelize.

For the record, I was a heathen in public school for most of my life but was confronted by the gospel through my Christian friends who attended public school with me. I thank God for placing them there because they were definitely lights in the darkness for me.

Come to think of it, those Christian friends in public school had a similar impact on me. I do not know exactly when I embraced all of the necessary truths of the gospel in order to be saved ... I know there were instances of moving toward the truth, and a point where I did turn from my own path. But if it were not for those in public school that God used to draw me into his church, I would have been as one of the seed that fell in rocky soil.

 

[Knoxienne]

I went to a public school and a Christian school, the place I found about drugs and all that bad stuff was at the Christian School

Very true. I spoke with a woman in her fifties recently who was in a Christian school as a youth and she said girls were smoking in the bathrooms and locker rooms - imagine what goes on nowadays.

 

[Pergamum]

Some quick points:

--Again, our kids are not to be sent out as missionaries into a corrupt world. They will usually be the ones changed, and not the ones who are effecting change.

--It is not a sin (probably) for Christian parents to send their kids to public school, but I would say in many places in the US it might be incredibly stupid depending on the local school situation.

--Whatever other reason there is for not wanting to be a volunteer janitor at a tax-supported institution, it is simply a matter of bad time management. Wanna use a few hours, clean your church first. If church members did this, they could save thousands per year in janitor bills. Come and clean my house!