Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Amen Martin. As a new 6/24 guy I see now how this affects a whole host of issues that make it nothing less than a vital confessional issue that really strikes at the heart of some major Doctrines.
Should the OPC and PCA merge into the OPCA?
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I as a PCA man.....would welcome it, I love my OPC Brethren, are there problems in the PCA, of course, are there problems in the OPC, of course, could a organic union of these structures overcome all the internal problems...NO, why? The Church is made of people, where you have people you have problems including Christians (Saints who yet sin). However, a union would benefit both bodies long term and create a Conservative and Traditional Presbyterian face in the US which would be hard to ignore. Just my.....
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
But how "traditional" could it be with the influx and growing number of "contemporary" anti-RPW PCA churches?
I am unsure of how many or how long the "contemporary" PCA churches will have momentum! There is a BIG Back to Traditions Movement in the PCA.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Glad to hear it. I am hoping to help stave off the contemporary things in the ARP.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Almost every OPC person I've spoken to in the last 12 years (since I joined the OPC in 1996) has expressed relief that the OPC did not join the PCA during the "joining and receiving" movement back in the 1970s and has remained a separate denomination.
The usual reason given is differences in denominational cultural tone, so to speak, between the two denominations. There is, for instance, a perception among some in the OPC that the PCA is more interested in being "big" than in being theologically consistent. As one person put it to me once, "No matter where you are theologically, the PCA has a presbytery for you!"
I've also heard murky stories about how disappointed some of the people in the OPC churches that did join the PCA are in how that ended up. Instead of feeling like they'd merged their churches into the PCA, it felt more like a takeover, as if the PCA had just swallowed up their OPC church.
This is all just anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but I've heard it fairly consistently through the years. There's definitely a sense of bitterness among some OPCers.
My sense is that, if it were put to a vote today, many, if not most in the OPC would turn it down flat - unhesitatingly.
The usual reason given is differences in denominational cultural tone, so to speak, between the two denominations. There is, for instance, a perception among some in the OPC that the PCA is more interested in being "big" than in being theologically consistent. As one person put it to me once, "No matter where you are theologically, the PCA has a presbytery for you!"
I've also heard murky stories about how disappointed some of the people in the OPC churches that did join the PCA are in how that ended up. Instead of feeling like they'd merged their churches into the PCA, it felt more like a takeover, as if the PCA had just swallowed up their OPC church.
This is all just anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but I've heard it fairly consistently through the years. There's definitely a sense of bitterness among some OPCers.
My sense is that, if it were put to a vote today, many, if not most in the OPC would turn it down flat - unhesitatingly.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
This is not the thread for it (maybe) but I am genuinely curious as to the OPC's "milieu" and the general "vibe" in the OPC. In honesty I am drawn much more to the OPC given what I hear on these boards having no real experience with either.
Josiah
Puritan Board Senior
I think that perhaps a union could happen, perhaps in our lifetime, perhaps not. I think that before any union occur Iron should sharpen Iron and we should resolve any issues before us both biblically and Confessionally. Whether this will happen in our lifetime is up to God in his Providence. I have read alot of wonderful comments and Posts (Pro/Con) in this thread and would have to conclude that I dont believe we are ready for union yet. I pray that when/if we do decide to unite that it would not be in the form of a "joining and recieving" and that a strong, robust, thoroughgoing Reformed and Presbyterian church might result.
I am eagerly awaiting to see the results of the PCA's 36's GA.
I am eagerly awaiting to see the results of the PCA's 36's GA.
In my humble opinion
It won't happen in the present climate/ configuration/ makeup of the two denominations.
The time it might have happened was in the 70s, with the first J&R overture. When the PCA voted down their own invitation to the "liberal" OPC, that was really the first, and the last chance of that kind of merger happening. The OPC had already voted itself out of existence, and suddenly it's brief "out-of-body" experience was over.
When the PCA, now waxed fat and kicking, renewed its advances in the 80s, the OPC demurred somewhat, preferring a true courtship, and a marriage, rather than absorption, and unity with the borg. The PCA was the big time, and they said my way or the highway sweetie. The OPC declined.
That's the history. A merger in the 70s, side-by-side with the merger that brought in the RPCES to the PCA fold would have brought greater balance to the new, larger denomination. But swallowing the RPCES alone created a new denomination, a new dynamic, with a center now moved "leftward". Basically, the OPC wanted to go back to mirror its efforts begun in the 60s to merge with the RPCES: painfully slow, and tied to constitutional fusion.
The PCA continues to experience internal tensions. Unlike the OPC, the PCA has been growing since its creation, by all kinds of means. The OPC split within a couple years, and within 20 had another deep division, leaving a largely homogeneous, but small, doctrinally heavy-mass core. The PCA will, I believe, split sooner or later. I do not say this with any gusto. I just think it will happen. It remains to be seen what the outcome of the latest GA reconfiguration will accomplish. It may retard the centrifugal forces or accelerate them. It is probably too soon to tell.
The larger side of the split would be about 10 years from a merger with the EPC, and eventually whatever came out of the PCUSA C-C movement. It is possible that the strict-constructionist or 'TR' side, the smaller side, would seek a merger with the OPC. The smaller side would have two obvious courses of action: 1) settle down, figure out its own identity, and then look for a merger if it wanted one; or 2) try for a merger as quickly as possible.
It would even be possible to conceive of its merging with the ARPs instead. I think the size of this grouping would be a factor in its direction, for several reasons. Where the churches are geographically centered would also be significant. For example, what if practically the whole MVP left (again, like they did from the PCUS)? But they were isolated largely from the rest of the departees? This would be a BIG reason to consider a merger with the ARP denomination, also a Southern Church mainly.
OK. I wrote this b/c one of you asked me for a thought, and I wished to oblige, but I really don't have anything coherent to say. I apologize. Bottom line, I don't see much likelihood of the OPC and PCA merging in the near future. Mainly for structural and pragmatic reasons, but with a dash of doctrine and history thrown in for flavor.
It won't happen in the present climate/ configuration/ makeup of the two denominations.
The time it might have happened was in the 70s, with the first J&R overture. When the PCA voted down their own invitation to the "liberal" OPC, that was really the first, and the last chance of that kind of merger happening. The OPC had already voted itself out of existence, and suddenly it's brief "out-of-body" experience was over.
When the PCA, now waxed fat and kicking, renewed its advances in the 80s, the OPC demurred somewhat, preferring a true courtship, and a marriage, rather than absorption, and unity with the borg. The PCA was the big time, and they said my way or the highway sweetie. The OPC declined.
That's the history. A merger in the 70s, side-by-side with the merger that brought in the RPCES to the PCA fold would have brought greater balance to the new, larger denomination. But swallowing the RPCES alone created a new denomination, a new dynamic, with a center now moved "leftward". Basically, the OPC wanted to go back to mirror its efforts begun in the 60s to merge with the RPCES: painfully slow, and tied to constitutional fusion.
The PCA continues to experience internal tensions. Unlike the OPC, the PCA has been growing since its creation, by all kinds of means. The OPC split within a couple years, and within 20 had another deep division, leaving a largely homogeneous, but small, doctrinally heavy-mass core. The PCA will, I believe, split sooner or later. I do not say this with any gusto. I just think it will happen. It remains to be seen what the outcome of the latest GA reconfiguration will accomplish. It may retard the centrifugal forces or accelerate them. It is probably too soon to tell.
The larger side of the split would be about 10 years from a merger with the EPC, and eventually whatever came out of the PCUSA C-C movement. It is possible that the strict-constructionist or 'TR' side, the smaller side, would seek a merger with the OPC. The smaller side would have two obvious courses of action: 1) settle down, figure out its own identity, and then look for a merger if it wanted one; or 2) try for a merger as quickly as possible.
It would even be possible to conceive of its merging with the ARPs instead. I think the size of this grouping would be a factor in its direction, for several reasons. Where the churches are geographically centered would also be significant. For example, what if practically the whole MVP left (again, like they did from the PCUS)? But they were isolated largely from the rest of the departees? This would be a BIG reason to consider a merger with the ARP denomination, also a Southern Church mainly.
OK. I wrote this b/c one of you asked me for a thought, and I wished to oblige, but I really don't have anything coherent to say. I apologize. Bottom line, I don't see much likelihood of the OPC and PCA merging in the near future. Mainly for structural and pragmatic reasons, but with a dash of doctrine and history thrown in for flavor.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Do you think the PCA's biggest problem is its "Good Faith" Subscription?
KenPierce
Puritan Board Freshman
I think it has more to do with different denominational cultures as the result of vastly different histories, which are somewhat ineffable things.
Frankly, the OPC has better polity, in my limited knowledge of it.
If it ever does happen, the worst name would be the Orthodox PResbyterian Church in America --talk about off-putting.
I think less modifiers are better than more (nothing like RPCNA, RPCGA, RPCES, etc), which are completely useless in the culture as defining terms, and something more winsome like Evangelical Reformed Church (with the hopeful inclusion of the URC!).
Frankly, the OPC has better polity, in my limited knowledge of it.
If it ever does happen, the worst name would be the Orthodox PResbyterian Church in America --talk about off-putting.
I think less modifiers are better than more (nothing like RPCNA, RPCGA, RPCES, etc), which are completely useless in the culture as defining terms, and something more winsome like Evangelical Reformed Church (with the hopeful inclusion of the URC!).
KenPierce
Puritan Board Freshman
The PCA's biggest problem is not good faith subscription.
The PCA's biggest problem is that it is in need of [was: bereft] of spiritual life.
The problem with subscription will always be the dishonesty of presbyters and candidates
Tie the subscription language as tightly as you might, and it will still fray, because of the human heart. Witness all the "strict" subscriptionists who, themselves, take exceptions. Only, they don't think they're exceptions. As human nature is wont to do, they simply decide their exceptions not to be exceptions, and therefore declare no exceptions.
The most infamous example: The late Gordon H. Clark. Pre-mil, thinks God is the author of evil, etc etc etc.
The PCA's biggest problem is that it is in need of [was: bereft] of spiritual life.
The problem with subscription will always be the dishonesty of presbyters and candidates
Tie the subscription language as tightly as you might, and it will still fray, because of the human heart. Witness all the "strict" subscriptionists who, themselves, take exceptions. Only, they don't think they're exceptions. As human nature is wont to do, they simply decide their exceptions not to be exceptions, and therefore declare no exceptions.
The most infamous example: The late Gordon H. Clark. Pre-mil, thinks God is the author of evil, etc etc etc.
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Perhaps, but I see the bigger problem may be related to its history. The PCA was formed when it came out of the PCUS as a reaction against liberalism, not as a desire to be distinctly Reformed. Do not misunderstand me, the PCA is Reformed, but it was not started with a vision to be distinctly Reformed. Some in the PCA would disagree with my assesment, but this is the feeling of some, and has even been stated by men who had been in the denomination for many years.
I agree with you on the creation issue. It is not a small issue, but it is a source of contention in the PCA. Yes, many in the OPC would follow Kline's framework view, which is very problematic, but unfortunetly many in the PCA do not hold to creation made in the space of six days. I am thankful that there are presbyteries in the PCA who will not receive a candidate who does not hold to six day creation. The LORD bless you, Randy as you battle with your health issues. I am praying for you.
Glenn Ferrell
Puritan Board Junior
My observation has been twenty percent or so of the PCA would fit better within the OPC; up to twenty percent of the OPC would fit well into the present PCA. If they could find agreement on the women in office issue, the reconstituted PCA would fit with the EPC. A large segment of the ARP would also fit into this PCA-EPC mix; a few congregations would find the OPC or RPCNA attractive. The RPCNA would be a better merger partner for the reconstituted OPC, hopefully firming up the OP's commitment to the RPW.
Edit Out.
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ColdSilverMoon
Puritan Board Senior
Brother, I think a comment that the PCA is Bereft of Spiritual life lacks charity, and is over the top.
For an intelligent, factually based, coherent discussion, it would be best if people kept their baseless, inflammatory comments to themselves. I'm sure there are spiritually lifeless PCA churches, but I have yet to encounter one in visits to several hundred of them.
And who's to say the difficulty with a union between the OPC and PCA is due to problems with the PCA?
larryjf
Puritan Board Senior
Good point.
I wonder if the internal disunity has the same root as the cross-denominational disunity...lack of strict subscription to the Westminster Standards.
The stricter the subscription to the Standards the more unity there will be, since unity in a church must be based on doctrine.
KenPierce
Puritan Board Freshman
Brother, I think a comment that the PCA is Bereft of Spiritual life lacks charity, and is over the top.
Okay, maybe the best way to say it is that what the PCA really needs is revival. Didn't mean to
Sometimes given to overstatement --the great sin of preachers. Please forgive me.I am concerned, however, that, in many places, including here, there is a lot of spiritual barrenness, and little spiritual hunger. ANd that begins with me.
KenPierce
Puritan Board Freshman
Brother, I think a comment that the PCA is Bereft of Spiritual life lacks charity, and is over the top.
For an intelligent, factually based, coherent discussion, it would be best if people kept their baseless, inflammatory comments to themselves. I'm sure there are spiritually lifeless PCA churches, but I have yet to encounter one in visits to several hundred of them.
And who's to say the difficulty with a union between the OPC and PCA is due to problems with the PCA?
Mason, brother, to call it baseless and inflammatory is, alas, both baseless and inflammatory.
I have been a minister in the PCA in various settings for 12 years. I am very concerned about its future. I have given my life to it. I think I have some standing from which to diagnose our problems.
My main point is that subscription isn't the answer --real revival is.
That is my prayer, and that is where i direct my labors.
Bereft was too strong a word, and I retract it.
But, our eyes are wandering. No doubt about that.
larryjf
Puritan Board Senior
Yes, revival is needed on many fronts.
But that doesn't mean that subscription to the doctrinal standards are irrelevant.
Certainly we shouldn't just sit around and wait for a revival, but rather conform ourselves more diligently to the Word of God and to its faithful exposition as found in the Westminster Standards.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
KenPierce
Puritan Board Freshman
LArry,
Didn't say subscription was irrelevant. As I have pointed out in other threads, good faith has actually strengthened some presbyteries in regard to subscription --requiring candidates to state their differences, and then requiring the presbyteries to publish a rationale as to why the granted exception does not strike at the vitals of the system.
Believe me, I am a confessional guy, by nature. I don't think it's irrelevant at all --must not be expressing myself well today.
Bad for a sermon-writing day!!!
Josiah
Puritan Board Senior
Mushroom
Puritan Board Doctor
Someone awhile back made the joke that there must be eschatological implications to the day that Presbyterians finally exhaust all possible combinations of the letters P, C, O, R, A, N, U, & S in their denominational acronyms. Maybe there's some truth to that.
I voted yes, but as a PCA member maybe I shouldn't have, so as not to saddle my OPC brothers with the syncretism and compromise afflicting my beloved PCA.
Nevermind. I withdraw my vote and abstain. What, me worry?
Oh, for an OPC congregation within a fifty mile radius.....
I voted yes, but as a PCA member maybe I shouldn't have, so as not to saddle my OPC brothers with the syncretism and compromise afflicting my beloved PCA.
Nevermind. I withdraw my vote and abstain. What, me worry?
Oh, for an OPC congregation within a fifty mile radius.....
ServantOfKing
Puritan Board Freshman
It is sad how fragmented the church on the whole is today. It would be great to see a merger. Every church has problems, sinful people comprise churches.
Gloria
Puritan Board Sophomore
Brother, I think a comment that the PCA is Bereft of Spiritual life lacks charity, and is over the top.
For an intelligent, factually based, coherent discussion, it would be best if people kept their baseless, inflammatory comments to themselves. I'm sure there are spiritually lifeless PCA churches, but I have yet to encounter one in visits to several hundred of them.
And who's to say the difficulty with a union between the OPC and PCA is due to problems with the PCA?
I was thinking this VERY thing as I read through the posts. Another thing came to mind as well--elitism.
KenPierce
Puritan Board Freshman
Brother, I think a comment that the PCA is Bereft of Spiritual life lacks charity, and is over the top.
For an intelligent, factually based, coherent discussion, it would be best if people kept their baseless, inflammatory comments to themselves. I'm sure there are spiritually lifeless PCA churches, but I have yet to encounter one in visits to several hundred of them.
And who's to say the difficulty with a union between the OPC and PCA is due to problems with the PCA?
I was thinking this VERY thing as I read through the posts. Another thing came to mind as well--elitism.
I don't know how I, who have been a member of the PCA for 15 of my 36 years of life, and a minister in her for 12, who sought her out from the dry ground of the liberal Reformed Church in America, and left behind kith and kin to serve within her, can be charged with elitism, or baseless, inflammatory comments.
I bet, if you talked to the pastors of the churches in the PCA, 80% of them would share my heart cry for revival. All you need to do is compare Jonathan Edwards's Distinguishing Marks of the Work of a Spirit of God with your average PCA experience to see the problem.
It's not that revolutionary, folks. Really.
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