Should the OPC and PCA merge into the OPCA?

[servantofmosthigh]

For one the OPC is in the process of re-working our DoW in response to a number of churches who are starting to do their own thing claiming that the DoW is not all that clear. The new revised DoW is suppose to make it crystal clear. The OPC also has issues with FV/NPP, theonomy, Sheperdism, etc, etc, though not on the scale of the PCA (mostlikely because the OPC is smaller).

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do your abbreviations mean?

1. DoW (Department of War?)
2. FV/NPP (I'm guessing you mean "Federal Vision" and "New Perspective on Paul.")

 

[Casey]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do your abbreviations mean?

1. DoW (Department of War?)

Directory of Worship, aka, Directory for the Public Worship of God.

2. FV/NPP (I'm guessing you mean "Federal Vision" and "New Perspective on Paul.")

You got it.

 

[servantofmosthigh]

Wow, I didn't know OPC had issues with theonomy or NPP. As for FV, that's not the same as NPP, is it? I always associated FV with Doug Wilson, and NPP with N.T. Wright.

As for theonomy, then are Chalcedon Foundation and its founder R.J. Rushdoony still considered OPC? I thought they were kicked out of the OPC because of their revisionism and theonomy. But if the OPC embrace theonomy, then they're still OPC?

As for DoW, I never heard of that term before. I'm going to have to research more about that.

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

Just to add...

There's been talk in some circles for years of a split between the Reformed/Pipa/Smith/Greenville/Knox school and the Evangelical/Chappell/Keller/Covenant school in the works. I still don't see it, but if it does happen perhaps the Modern-Evangelical PCA could join a much enlarged EPC, and the Reformed PCA be part of a three-way merger with the OPC and ARP, especially if the ARP would do what the RPCES did with their women deacons and let them rotate out, as well as dropping the extra chapters from the Westminster Confession.

Incidentally, the church I am a member of now came out of an ARP church that petitioned the General Synod a few years ago to rescind deaconesses. It failed, but maybe there's hope.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

In my short time in the ARP I do not know that many churches that have deaconesses. It seems to be a rare thing.

 

[Scott1]

Just to add...

There's been talk in some circles for years of a split between the Reformed/Pipa/Smith/Greenville/Knox school and the Evangelical/Chappell/Keller/Covenant school in the works. I still don't see it, but if it does happen perhaps the Modern-Evangelical PCA could join a much enlarged EPC, and the Reformed PCA be part of a three-way merger with the OPC and ARP, especially if the ARP would do what the RPCES did with their women deacons and let them rotate out, as well as dropping the extra chapters from the Westminster Confession.

Incidentally, the church I am a member of now came out of an ARP church that petitioned the General Synod a few years ago to rescind deaconesses. It failed, but maybe there's hope.

I'm certainly not an expert on this but I recall a paper by Mr Kellar that defined the "original contract" in the PCA as to faith and practice, much of which is either inferred from what was written down or was unwritten. His paper included things that would indentify the denomination like:

ordaining women in ruling authority-no
Reformed doctrines of Grace (Calvinism)-yes
open charismatic corporate worship-no

I don't see any blocks advocating such now, even among those you mention. There may be other issues such as come from a general falling away from biblical truth but not along the lines you mention. As I understand it, the EPC would fall opposite on all the issues above.

 

[bookslover]

At our OPC General Assembly this year, one of the fraternal delegates was Clair Davis from the PCA. Fraternal delegates are allowed 10 minutes to speak before the GA. Davis rambled on for about 40 minutes, and no one got up to challenge him, mainly because (reports the TE I know who was there and told me this), there were so many of his former students among the commissioners.

Anyway, Davis was waxing nostalgic over the old "joining and receiving" actions of 30 years ago or so. He said that there should have been more understanding on both sides regarding what was happening, and he (apparently) wished that it had gone through so that the two denominations could have been joined (read: PCA swallows OPC).

The upshot of the whole thing (according to my TE buddy) was that, between Davis ignoring his 10 minute limit, and him waxing nostalgic over the "joining and receiving" movement, with its implied rebuke to the OPC over its failure, some of the OPC commissioners were upset. The general feeling was, "Well, that speech just set PCA and OPC relations back 10 years!"

Must have been interesting...

 

[Zenas]

In my short time in the ARP I do not know that many churches that have deaconesses. It seems to be a rare thing.

We "technically" allow for them but now that we have more men in the church, we no longer have any on the board.

 

[MMasztal]

What has been done concerning the creation debate? I don't consider that a small issue as some do. This is not just a hermeneutical argument in my estimation. It is a confessional issue as well as an issue of Biblical inspiration. At least that is how I see it. I know I am not PCA now but that would be my question concerning the union. The PCA historically has held to a 6/24 creation day. The OPC doesn't if I am not mistaken.

I was in the OPC since 1987 before moving to FL and joining the ARP. A few years ago, the OPC decided to allow for some difference of opinion as to each one's belief regarding creation. There are many 6/24 members as there are those who hold to an old earth theory.

 

[MMasztal]

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in America

I'd say yes, if the new denomination were to adopt OPC practices. In my experience in the south, the PCA is a real mixed bag, unlike the OPC and I think many compromises would need to be made.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

In my short time in the ARP I do not know that many churches that have deaconesses. It seems to be a rare thing.

We "technically" allow for them but now that we have more men in the church, we no longer have any on the board.

We have one deaconess but she functions more as a Parish nurse.

 

[CharlieJ]

Has anyone read John Frame's Evangelical Reunion? It has a chapter or appendix on the PCA/OPC venture.

You can find it here: Frame Books

 

[SolaGratia]

Has anyone read John Frame's Evangelical Reunion? It has a chapter or appendix on the PCA/OPC venture.

You can find it here: Frame Books

Wait a minute! Did not JF left the OPC for the PCA?

 

[Josiah]

Has anyone read John Frame's Evangelical Reunion? It has a chapter or appendix on the PCA/OPC venture.

You can find it here: Frame Books

Wait a minute! Did not JF left the OPC for the PCA?

John Frame, from the dedication of the book cited above Evangelical Reunion:

And during the last of my twenty-two years, 1988-89, I spent much time pondering, together with my local congregation, whether they and I should stay in the OPC or to seek transfer into a somewhat larger denomination (200,000 members, 1000 churches), the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). We did make that transfer; I and the church are now PCA. But we did not make it without a lot of Scripture searching, heart searching, emotional agony, and intellectual labor[3].

A similar exodus is re-counted in: Fighting The Good Fight

Another important distinctive of New Life was its pragmatic understanding of Presbyterian polity. In 1987 New Life of Jenkintown and its daughter churches (in northeast Philadelphia and suburban Fort Washington) formed a "New Life Network" in order to create "vital fellowship beyond our local church boundaries." The network was to feature joint worship services, pulpit exchanges, staff coordination, and mutual prayer and financial support. Curiously, all of these were normally the functions of a presbytery. Many in the Presbytery of Philadelphia, already disappointed at New Life's lukewarm support for presbytery efforts, saw the "New Life Network" as divisive—in effect, a "presbytery within a presbytery."

Not long after the formation of the New Life Network, the member churches withdrew from the OPC and "voluntarily realigned" with the Presbyterian Church in America, believing that the PCA's more aggressive church planting programs were more conducive to the "outgoing" philosophy of New Life. In a letter to the congregation, the session of New Life of Northeast Philadelphia posed the question, "where does our church ‘fit, most strategically, in light of our ministry, our location, and the times in which we live?" The session's answer was that "our affiliation with the PCA is clearly the better option for us." Such options were possible because of New Life's independent mindset that falsely contrasted Presbyterian polity with higher commitments, as evidenced in their claim, "Our loyalty is not ultimately to any denomination, however good it is: neither the OPC nor the PCA. Our loyalty is to Christ and his kingdom."

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

That last quote is not of a Presbyterian but of a Congregationalist.

 

[Josiah]

That last quote is not of a Presbyterian but of a Congregationalist.

Daryl Hart is a congregationalist? Forgive my ignorance, but I have never heard of such about D.G. Hart, could you explain.

 

[yeutter]

pluriformity of the Kirk

I am no longer a Presbyterian and therefore did not vote.
Maybe my remarks are slightly off the topic, but, I think get to the heart of the issue.
I have never been satisfied by any arguement I have heard for the pluriformity of the Church. Our fellowships should be so broad that Church discipline can not be escaped joining a congregation of some other reformed communion. How we do this without compromising the purity of teaching?

 

[kceaster]

I believe it all comes down to worship. Unless the two denominations see eye to eye on that, there's little chance in coming together.

It'll be interesting to see how the Psalter/Hymnal project goes. I have been told there are some in the PCA who would be miffed if the OPC makes one for themselves and leaves the PCA out of it. But a joint venture like the red Trinity seems out of the question. That hymnal is the way it is because of the PCA's influence. Many from the OPC and PCA wanted all 150 Psalms, but that got shot down. That right there is very telling. It casts a long shadow on the Regulative Principal, and the DPW. We could probably get over the differing views on the offices, but the DPW, I really don't see the OPC bending on that one. Unless of course, there is a split in the OPC over it.

In Christ,

KC

 

[CharlieJ]

I guess a related question to the OP, and one that is somewhat necessary in considering this issue is,

"Does the doctrine of the catholicity of the Church obligate or strongly impel us to seek organizational unity wherever the purity of the gospel and marks of a true Church would not be endangered?"

If the answer is yes, then the OPC and the PCA should consider it their duty to come to some agreement and make things work. To borrow an analogy from John Frame, they are already married and have unscripturally separated.

If the answer is no, then any "merging" would be essentially optional. It would be a very careful endeavor, only conducted after much deliberation and an extremely high level of agreement.

 

[Robbie Schmidtberger]

Just to add...

There's been talk in some circles for years of a split between the Reformed/Pipa/Smith/Greenville/Knox school and the Evangelical/Chappell/Keller/Covenant school in the works. I still don't see it, but if it does happen perhaps the Modern-Evangelical PCA could join a much enlarged EPC, and the Reformed PCA be part of a three-way merger with the OPC and ARP, especially if the ARP would do what the RPCES did with their women deacons and let them rotate out, as well as dropping the extra chapters from the Westminster Confession.

Incidentally, the church I am a member of now came out of an ARP church that petitioned the General Synod a few years ago to rescind deaconesses. It failed, but maybe there's hope.

I would love to know where this talk is coming from. The PCA certainly is more evangelical-reformed than confessional. GPTS and Pipa clearly are more confessional. In my estimation GPTS is trying to "recover the confessions" in the PCA. Even in this climate I do not see a major split in the PCA happening in the near future. Perhaps you might mean Keller's, New Life, and other's preference for networking instead of denominational loyalty. (Something the Gospel Coalition and Together for the Gospel encourages.)

 

[DeoOpt]

No! The OPC has turned down several opportunities from the PCA to join. It will never happen, and personally I would not welcome that merger.

I beg your pardon Sir Stephen, and to think I was begining to like you. <<In all jest.

I know why dont the OPC & PCA merge and during service The OPC sits on one side and the PCA sits on the other and when the service is over we hash out our differances.

 

[pilgrim3970]

Not being a presbyterian, I don't have a vested interest in this.

However, I do wonder if it might not be beneficial to the various presbyterian and reformed bodies to maybe go the route of an association or federation. Each maintains autonomy but there is still some mutual accountablility and cooperation.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Is that not what NAPARC is for?

 

[Robbie Schmidtberger]

I am curious at what NAPARC does.

 

[pilgrim3970]

Is that not what NAPARC is for?

ah... was not familiar with NAPARC.

 

[Ricardus]

All this talk of union sounds like too much inbreeding. We should be more worried about getting our theology and polity right and while doing that some real mission work. Here in the DFW (Texas) area we have a very large influx of Hindus (Indians from India), Buddhists (Chinese, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians and etc.) and Muslims (India, Middle East, and etc.) It is no longer a question of will we send missionaries to convert the heathen over there but will we bother to evangelize locally. I have begun the study of Arabic and Sunni Islam so that I can have fruitful discussions with the local imam on Ibn Taymiyya and other topics. He was very surprised! It's like a Muslim visiting this site to do research on Calvin and Bullinger. After studying these issues it reminded me of the silly statements made by Richard Pratt on how similar "Decretal theology" was to the Islamic brand of "fatalism". RTS Orlando has a distinctly different taste from that of RTS Jackson as Westminster East from that of Westminster in California. We can't even get our professors to agree; how do we expect whole denominations to do so? Unity for the sake of unity will never work.

 

[Scott1]

Not being a presbyterian, I don't have a vested interest in this.

However, I do wonder if it might not be beneficial to the various presbyterian and reformed bodies to maybe go the route of an association or federation. Each maintains autonomy but there is still some mutual accountablility and cooperation.

I think this is the purpose of the North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council (NAPARC). Both the PCA and OPC are members.

 

[beej6]

Dr. Godfrey (Westminster-California) floated the idea of having all the NAPARC churches unite as a federation.

I personally thought that the OPC and URCNA had the best chance of uniting, being more similar in size and, historically, more militant in their Reformed identity (having come out of the nearly apostate PCUSA and CRC denominations).

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

I personally thought that the OPC and URCNA had the best chance of uniting, being more similar in size and, historically, more militant in their Reformed identity (having come out of the nearly apostate PCUSA and CRC denominations).

I wouldn't mind a union of the OPC/URC. They are similar in many ways and it would be nice to see a British and Continental Reformed joint body. Have a Westminster and 3FU denomination ever united? Would they adopt both systems? Perhaps compromise and adopt the Westminster Confession and Heidelberg Catechism? (The Quebecker Reformed Church does this.)

 

[DMcFadden]

I personally thought that the OPC and URCNA had the best chance of uniting, being more similar in size and, historically, more militant in their Reformed identity (having come out of the nearly apostate PCUSA and CRC denominations).

That is a fascinating observation. Those who left liberal denominations have a certain commonality of experience that others cannot understand. But, didn't many in the PCA also leave a more liberal denomination???