This may be a difficult question, but should confessional reformed Christians pray with Arminians who are not members in good standing in a church? Basically, non-denominational churches that have no form of membership just a "come as you are" philosophy . I would like to differentiate between with and for. If we are praying with Arminians it seems we are approving of their beliefs and their doctrine. Rather, when we are praying for we are asking God to grant them repentance and understanding.
Should we pray with Arminians?
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Archlute
Puritan Board Senior
Yes, as believing brothers and sisters, we should always feel charitably towards praying with them.
If they are believers in Christ they are then members of the body by virtue of their union with him. The outward form of their congregation's ecclesiology may not reflect well upon a proper understanding of formal church membership practices, but they are members of Christ's body nonetheless.
There is a tendency in denominations, such as the OPC/URC, to press the issue of "members in good standing" too far, and to make it a way of screening out from Christian fellowship those who do not conform to any number of practices/thoughts in line with their own denomination's standards.
We should never forget that our true unity lies in Christ; you can have one who is a "member in good standing" who has a cold and hypocritical heart, and is possibly unregenerate. I would rather pray with an Arminian brother for the former man's salvation/growth in grace than pray with the hypocritical "member in good standing" about the Arminian's coming into the light regarding the proper form of outward church membership.
There are any number of fellow Christian's whom I can pray with that are not in accord with a reformed understanding on various issues, that does not mean that I approve of their position, nor that I am partaking with them in their error. If that were so, Christ would have never seen fit to pray with his disciples. It would seem to be a significant sin against the love for the brethren to refuse to pray to our Father with them, all because of a matter of organizational practice.
If they are believers in Christ they are then members of the body by virtue of their union with him. The outward form of their congregation's ecclesiology may not reflect well upon a proper understanding of formal church membership practices, but they are members of Christ's body nonetheless.
There is a tendency in denominations, such as the OPC/URC, to press the issue of "members in good standing" too far, and to make it a way of screening out from Christian fellowship those who do not conform to any number of practices/thoughts in line with their own denomination's standards.
We should never forget that our true unity lies in Christ; you can have one who is a "member in good standing" who has a cold and hypocritical heart, and is possibly unregenerate. I would rather pray with an Arminian brother for the former man's salvation/growth in grace than pray with the hypocritical "member in good standing" about the Arminian's coming into the light regarding the proper form of outward church membership.
There are any number of fellow Christian's whom I can pray with that are not in accord with a reformed understanding on various issues, that does not mean that I approve of their position, nor that I am partaking with them in their error. If that were so, Christ would have never seen fit to pray with his disciples. It would seem to be a significant sin against the love for the brethren to refuse to pray to our Father with them, all because of a matter of organizational practice.
MrMerlin777
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
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Blueridge Believer
Puritan Board Professor
We have a term for this amongst baptists. They're caled "baptist briders". I agree with your postion brother.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Lets get our ducks in a row here:Is Arminianim heresy? Are Arminians heretics? The answer to both questions is YES! Should we pray with heretics, No! Are all those whom are in the erring church Arminians? No! They are in error. Nonetheless, the error presents a problem. If the Jesus these people worship is not the Jesus of the scriptures, and typically, based upon the churches these people come out of, it is not, should we pray with them? I would say no. Where would you draw the line; How about someone who has a church that is a health and wealth theology; They tell you the same thing as these erring believers we are addressing here. How about the Church of Christ? They have the same theology essentially except they believe baptism is the synergism; same as these erring (for lack of a better word) Arminians.
Where would you draw the line?
Where would you draw the line?
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
MrMerlin777
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Are all Arminians unsaved? Is one saved by proper understanding of the doctrines of grace or are they saved by faith in Christ? This is confusing to me basically you're saying I should never pray with my twin brother even though he is a Christian simply because he isn't a Calvinist, or my father or my mother or my late grandmother (who was a more godly woman than I'll probably ever be a godly man) simply because they were or are not 5 pointers.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
I think that is and has been Scott's point here at the PB for a long time.
Blueridge Believer
Puritan Board Professor
There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God; he lived far above the ordinary level of common Christians, and was one "of whom the world was not worthy." I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see these truths, or, at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinist in or out of Heaven.
C.H. SPURGEON
C.H. SPURGEON
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I'll be the first to say it: If Wesley died holding to Arminian theology, the one that the remonstrants held to, the one that Dordt condemned, he perished without Christ. As well, I will add Mother Theresa and all her good works to the bunch.
Salvation must've been sparse before the 14th and 15th centuries? I guess there won't be too many sold out stadiums in heaven.
Seriously, if you're that distinct in prayer, whom can you take the Lord's Supper with?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Why do you say that? You imply that the believers of that day were all in error? As well, where do you draw the line then? You imply God grades upon some curve.
God has always had a remnant stump.....
Our church practices closed communion
The council of Orange and other like councils took the position of the same orthodoxy of Dort later. I think it is a mistake to make such a strong seperation between Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism. Orthodoxy has always seen as Arminiansim as a return to Rome, and in the end, a return of Pelagius. A works/merit based salvation is no salvation at all. I however, have hope that the early church, while not perfect, recognized the unconditional nature of the gospel and made the same pronouncement against Pelagianism that Dort did against Arminianism.
For that matter, the church today is hardly as mild a Arminius. Rather, many would have their bibles edited to remove any reference to "predestined" if it were up to them.
Some good reading that will shed light on Arminianism:
Calvinism and Evangelical Arminianism by by John L. Girardeau (A MUST read!)
And the nature of the church today being Pelagian in nature:
THE PELAGIAN CAPTIVITY OF THE CHURCH by R.C. Sproul
Blueridge Believer
Puritan Board Professor
I want to understand you correctly brother. Are you saying that one must have a complete understanding of the five points to be saved? This question is for Scott.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Blueridge Believer
Puritan Board Professor
Yes. But so is dispensationalism. Are they lost too?
ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
Scott:
What is the term for someone who is a disciple of Christ but is not a five point Calvinist?
What is the term for someone who is a disciple of Christ but is not a five point Calvinist?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
A growing believer. There is a big difference between someone who is growing in faith and one that holds to Arminianism.
An understanding of Total Depravity is a prerequisite for understanding the unconditional nature of the gospel. Only when one understands that he can contribute nothing to his salvation, does he rest on Christ alone, which is the gospel in its simple, unconditional nature. This concept is not hard to grasp for those who have had their minds enlightened by the Holy Spirit to see their wretched condition, and their only remedy. But for those who have their minds darkened, they will always in the end attempt to save themselves (i.e. become their own savior).
Blueridge Believer
Puritan Board Professor
According to this line of reason, only five point Calvinists are saved. Anyone else, be they free will in any way it thier theology is eternally damned. All methodists, free will baptists, AOG, Wesleyan, Mennonite, Church of God, Pentecostal and other Independents have no hope. What about those like the IFB and Southern baptists and others like the Grace brethren who reject the first four points but accept the fifth?
I like to call them gospelites. They have a bare understanding of the gospel, and its unconditional nature, but maybe have not yet come into contact with Calvinism etc. However, because of their understanding of the unconditionality of the gospel, it should not be hard for these to be persuaded of Calvinism as it should only logically follow from what they already believe.
I have met some of these, but not many (at least that I could discern).
The path is narrow, and few there be that find it. We should not be suprised that the majority of the population, even those going by the name "christian" are not saved, and have no understanding of the gospel. Doesn't the Bible teach exactly this? Sad but true.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The better way to look at this is that all believers in heaven will be on the same page; they will all be biblically aligned and most definitely Presbyterian
"What the Arminian wants to do is to arouse man's activity: what we want to do is to kill it once for all---to show him that he is lost and ruined, and that his activities are not now at all equal to the work of conversion; that he must look upward. They seek to make the man stand up: we seek to bring him down, and make him feel that there he lies in the hand of God, and that his business is to submit himself to God, and cry aloud, 'Lord, save, or we perish.' We hold that man is never so near grace as when he begins to feel he can do nothing at all. When he says, 'I can pray, I can believe, I can do this, and I can do the other,' marks of self-sufficiency and arrogance are on his brow."
- C. H. Spurgeon
- C. H. Spurgeon
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
AWESOME QUOTE!
Blueridge Believer
Puritan Board Professor
My grandfather was a Wesleyan/Methodist preacher for 50 years. He would pray so fervently at night when I was a child you could hear him outside. My grandmother had standards of holiness that would put anyone here to shame. I remember going to camp meetings with them when I was a kid. They worshipped God hard. They were married for 70 years when grandad died. I really find it hard to believe theyre in hell because they had a faulty understanding of certain doctrines but yet loved Christ fervently.
BTW, Spurgeon was saved in a methodist church. Imagine that, God in his sovereign will saving a man while a hell bound lost heretic is preaching!
Forgive me brethren, but I'm as fervent a 5 pointer as anyone here but I'll stand with Spurgeon in his statement from "a defense of calvinism".
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Notice that God saved Spurgeon from the error.
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