Should we use wine during the Lord's Supper if 15% of members are in recovery

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matthew11v25

Puritan Board Sophomore
This may have been fleshed out else where...if so please point me in the right direction. This may be a better fit in another forum...

Our church supports an alcohol and drug recovery program which makes up about 15% of church membership. Our church gives the option of wine or grape juice on the same tray. It is known that those in recovery struggle when the elements are passed around.

Our session is in discussion on this, but would you:

1. Keep wine as an option based on Biblical command

or

2. Use only grape juice as an option to keep those from struggling that are members.
 
Option 1.

I am not convinced that a thimble full of wine actually causes anyone to stumble. That seems to be taken for granted these days but I am unaware of any scientific (or biblical for that matter) evidence. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, however.
 
I'm not sure it's a matter of choice but more a matter of authority. By what authority should we change the elements of the Lord's Supper?
 
100% of your membership is in recovery from the dominion of sin. If wine is a problem for some before the Lord's table, then abstaining from it is wise- until they learn that it is the heart of man, and not dumb objects, that are the root of sin.

Theognome
 
100% of your membership is in recovery from the dominion of sin. If wine is a problem for some before the Lord's table, then abstaining from it is wise- until they learn that it is the heart of man, and not dumb objects, that are the root of sin.

Theognome

I wholeheartedly agree. I would rather give the third option, the table is to be all wine, and those that are in recovery need to practice self control. We are all in recovery of one kind or another. Should the churches with 15% of the people in recovery from sexual sin separate the men from the women so as not to tempt those who are susceptible (which might be everyone but eunuchs and the very old)?

While it might be more difficult for a person that is particularly susceptible to drunkenness to have a small sip of wine during the table, it might be worse for them to not partake of the LS because the elements are not as commanded. The RPW takes precedence over weakness, and the LS is a means of grace in which those that are having problems with self-control might gain strength. If 15% need extra help, then perhaps they should stay after the service for 6 to 8 hours with those who are strong to wait until the minimal amount of alcohol is metabolized so they no longer have any physical excuse for sin.

Remember, alcohol is not sin in itself, so this is not the same thing as flee the adulterous woman. If someone is truly recovered, they will not need to flee alcohol, they will exercise self-control in the midst of it.
 
Wine is the bilical command

My presbyterian congregation celebrates The Lords Supper on the first Sunday of each month during both our worship services. We serve wine and grapjuice. I take the inner cups filled with wine however there are a small number in our congration who take the thimble cup from the outer rim where there is a few thimbles of grape juice.:rolleyes: But I think as most on this forum that wine is the bilical command.

Dudley
 
Were there no alcoholics in the New Testament that converted?

During the time the NT was written, drunkards were called 'sinners', and sinners were constantly being converted. Modern humanism calls it 'Alcoholism', and that it is a disease- thus sin is not involved. So no, there were no alcoholics converted in the NT.

Theognome
 
Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?
 
Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Unrelated issues, actually. The use of grape juice didn't even exist until Dr. Welch first pasteurized the stuff in the late 19th century. Even then, it didn't catch on in evangelical circles until the Temperance Movement took hold of the Church. Simply put, the whole use of grape juice at the LS is, in it's most basic argument, that drunkeness isn't a sin- it's a disease; and that is a bold-face denial of the Word of God.

Theognome
 
Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Pergy,

I appreciate the thought, and while I don't think "we" should allow variance in the bread (if you look at my responses, it is not my decision to make, it is the elders that make it) even those that argued the bread could be leavened, the almost universal position was that wine ought to be used as it is commanded.
 
Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but variance in the bread is still basically bread. We're not talking about using a different brand of wine, we're talking about not using wine at all! Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different. (If you disagree just try to serve wine to the kids in the nursery and tell all those angry parents that it's just a different kind of grape juice! :p) That is clearly unbiblical, and as Theognome pointed out, a very recent innovation.
 
:offtopic:
Our church had a wonderful dinner tonight with a visiting missionary. A family in our church who makes wine brought me a bottle with a custom label.
Preacher's Reserve
Valentine's Creek
For the Totally Depraved, Unconditionally Elect sinner who
by Limited Atonement was drawn by Irresistible Grace in the
Perseverance of the Saints.
AMEN​



Back to the topic - We discussed that when we went to wine. Problems with alcohol are a repercussion of sin and do not dictate the normal practices of the church of Christ. They have to deal with the repercussions of their sin and overcome them. Therefore, we do not cater to them. If we did then we would have to cater to everyone in some manner.
 
Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but variance in the bread is still basically bread. We're not talking about using a different brand of wine, we're talking about not using wine at all! Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different. (If you disagree just try to serve wine to the kids in the nursery and tell all those angry parents that it's just a different kind of grape juice! :p) That is clearly unbiblical, and as Theognome pointed out, a very recent innovation.

Can we dilute the wine then with water? We are not changing it to juice, but only adding water to it? This seems akin to the differences in using varying kinds of bread. It's still wine, just extra-weak.
 
:offtopic:
Our church had a wonderful dinner tonight with a visiting missionary. A family in our church who makes wine brought me a bottle with a custom label.
Preacher's Reserve
Valentine's Creek
For the Totally Depraved, Unconditionally Elect sinner who
by Limited Atonement was drawn by Irresistible Grace in the
Perseverance of the Saints.
AMEN​



Back to the topic - We discussed that when we went to wine. Problems with alcohol are a repercussion of sin and do not dictate the normal practices of the church of Christ. They have to deal with the repercussions of their sin and overcome them. Therefore, we do not cater to them. If we did then we would have to cater to everyone in some manner.

I am in the minority in that I don't think we should necessarily 'avoid' temptation anyway. James says, "Blessed is the man that 'endureth' temptation."
 
Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but variance in the bread is still basically bread. We're not talking about using a different brand of wine, we're talking about not using wine at all! Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different. (If you disagree just try to serve wine to the kids in the nursery and tell all those angry parents that it's just a different kind of grape juice! :p) That is clearly unbiblical, and as Theognome pointed out, a very recent innovation.

Can we dilute the wine then with water? We are not changing it to juice, but only adding water to it? This seems akin to the differences in using varying kinds of bread. It's still wine, just extra-weak.

What is the benefit of it being 'weak'?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but variance in the bread is still basically bread. We're not talking about using a different brand of wine, we're talking about not using wine at all! Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different. (If you disagree just try to serve wine to the kids in the nursery and tell all those angry parents that it's just a different kind of grape juice! :p) That is clearly unbiblical, and as Theognome pointed out, a very recent innovation.

Can we dilute the wine then with water? We are not changing it to juice, but only adding water to it? This seems akin to the differences in using varying kinds of bread. It's still wine, just extra-weak.

What is the benefit of it being 'weak'?

What is the benefit of it being strong?
 
Can we dilute the wine then with water? We are not changing it to juice, but only adding water to it? This seems akin to the differences in using varying kinds of bread. It's still wine, just extra-weak.

What is the benefit of it being 'weak'?

What is the benefit of it being strong?

You said you wanted to dilute the wine with water. Why go to the extra effort to change the wine before it is served?
 
Couple of points here. I remember when I was a kid whenever my dad would go "on the wagon" if he had one drop of alcohol it would cause him to stumble, so I am tempted to make a knee-jerk statement here: if the lack of alcohol in the "wine" doesn't cause it to be improperly used in communion (I don't know whether it does or not) then perhaps it's best to just use grape juice. In his case, the love of alcohol was perceived as a disease, but really there were other issues going on. The alcohol brought him great comfort and that's what he really wanted - so in his case, there was a repentance issue, not just of the sin of overindulgence but of idolatry.

There were others in this thread who asked when wine becomes wine. I have read (and cannot locate a supporting link) that wine back in ancient times was frequently watered down and could have been much weaker than what we have now. I have also heard that it was useful because while water could be stagnant and foul, wine, due to the alcohol, was less likely to make one sick. I am sure someone here can confirm or disprove that.
 
Just as it is harmful to drink wine alone or water alone, whereas mixing wine with water makes a more pleasant drink that increases delight, so a skillfully composed story delights the ears of those who read the work. Let this, then, be the end.

From 2 Maccabees 15, written about 150 years BC, Rich.
 
Should they use bread if 15% are obese due to carb addiction?

-----Added 8/15/2009 at 11:11:27 EST-----

cap locks on.... sorry
 
I was an alcoholic for 15 years before converted and called to the ministry. I drink wine during the LS and have a glass during meals sometimes and a beer at the game. Alcoholism is sin, not a disease. If someone is struggling with a bit of wine during the Lords Supper, when his focus should be on Christ and his finished work, then there are clearly other issues that need to be focused on with this brother or sister.
 
Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different.

Could you define for me the moment the juice of squeezed grapes (grape juice) becomes wine? Is it when there is .001% alcohol?

When it has the ability to make you drunk?

Thanks. I had asked essentially the same question up at post 4, and hadn't gotten an answer from the AWOs (Alcoholic Wine Onlys).

So the stronger the wine, the better? Thunderbird or Mad Dog 2020 is better than a lower alcohol version?
 
option 2, we need to stop being so legalistic.

Causing brothers to stumble over some secondary issue is nuts.
 
Although its entirely possible that wine only is the best way to serve the Lord's Supper, I do think it could be profitable for proponents of that approach to exercise charity towards their struggling brothers or sisters. Alcoholism is a sin, but its also an addiction and is really hard to kick (as are many sins). I'm not saying we shouldn't have wine, but too often I've seen a blustering, "Well, just get over it" approach to individuals who struggle with resisting addiction when coming to the Lord's Table.

As to those who say that a thimble full of wine doesn't tempt an alcoholic - You're quite fortunate that you've never experienced a consuming addiction. Alcoholism runs in my family, and I've seen my uncles and grandfather struggle horribly with resisting drinking to excess. If they attended churches where wine was served, I'm quite certain that they would not take the LS - or perhaps only take the bread.
 
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