"Six Days Shalt Thou Labor"

[OPC'n]

Romans 14 is referring to days that God invented (not like man's TD) and how to think of them corporately during a time of covenantal transition.

They are days that are no longer required to observe since the coming of Christ. Thus they are not considered holy days to be observed unlike the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the only holy day that is required to observe. Therefore these special days of which Paul speaks are no more holy than TG is. My point being is that these people took time off from work to celebrate a day which was no longer required by God’s law to observe. If Paul allowed them to observe a day that was no longer holy and was just something people wanted to observe, then that gives us permission to observe special days that have meaning to us. You have the right to not observe the day but do not have the right to forbid others from observing it.

 

[Henry Hall]

So Memorial Day, Labor Day, 4th of July? All the same in your mind?

I'm trying to get some work done here. I have papers to grade. It's not the real Holy Day that was God's idea.
I'll let someone else battle about other fake holy days.
Maybe there's one other soul who calls himself Presbyterian who agrees with Knox, Henderson, Rutherford, and Gillespie, who would be willing to take the bullet next time.
So, with respect to other presumed holy-days, I've got no comment.

 

[Henry Hall]

They are days that are no longer required to observe since the coming of Christ. Thus they are not considered holy days to be observed unlike the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the only holy day that is required to observe. Therefore these special days of which Paul speaks are no more holy than TG is. My point being is that these people took time off from work to celebrate a day which was no longer required by God’s law to observe. If Paul allowed them to observe a day that was no longer holy and was just something people wanted to observe, then that gives us permission to observe special days that have meaning to us. You have the right to not observe the day but do not have the right to forbid others from observing it.

Weak analogy.
Was Thanksgiving required by God when you were born, but then, during your lifetime, was being phased out by God Himself?

 

[De Jager]

What does it mean to work six days a week?

On Saturdays I clean the bathrooms, play with my son and go for walks.

Yep. 5 days a week I work at the office. the 6th day I get stuff done at home. Andy boy do I need that 6th day.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

It's your thread that you started, so it seems a bit incongruous to speak of taking a bullet when you brought it up. If you don't want to defend the subject raised any further due to constraints from the questions or objections that come up, that's certainly your call to make and probably the right one.

As to picking up the torch, even though I think I know the view of Knox et al. on what the Presbyterian view is, and have defended and grown in my understanding of it over the last 35 years, I'm just not sure what it is your are arguing for. Granting the Presbyterian view of the pretended holy days, their use of Romans 14, etc., it seems to me you are saying more and that there can be no civil holidays at all. If you are not saying that, then my apologies. But it is not the Presbyterian view that there cannot be civilly appointed days off from work, or voluntary of ourselves for that matter like vacation if we have been afforded that freedom and providence, and that the only such time or days off from work can only be either the God ordained Sabbath or days of fasting or thanksgiving due to circumstances that call for such. Such time off while we have liberty for it, remains governed by God's ten commandments as to how we or the authority calling them, lawfully or unlawfully employ or appoint such days and times. That it has been recognized that such times are granted and not disallowed, see such as in Calderwood and Gillespie who note the Scottish observance of the first day of the year as a civil holiday in their arguments against the pretended holy days

I'm trying to get some work done here. I have papers to grade. It's not the real Holy Day that was God's idea.
I'll let someone else battle about other fake holy days.
Maybe there's one other soul who calls himself Presbyterian who agrees with Knox, Henderson, Rutherford, and Gillespie, who would be willing to take the bullet next time.
So, with respect to other presumed holy-days, I've got no comment.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Like Tyler, the only theologian whom I have found to argue for the notion that the fourth commandment is a command to engage in gainful employment for six days a week is R. J. Rushdoony. It is also interesting that he was hardly the strictest person when it came to promoting Sabbath observance himself. While I am not referring to his personal practice, he did publish a book (The Institutes of Biblical Law) with Gary North's appendix attacking Sabbatarianism.

The standard Reformed interpretation of the fourth commandment is that you have six days for your own affairs, but one day is to be kept holy and exclusively for the things of God (excepting works of necessity and mercy). The notion that it is a mandate to enforce a six-day working week comes from Christian worldview thinking rather than the Reformed confessions. The precise amount of time spent in employment is a matter of common sense and Christian prudence to be governed by the general rules of the word.

 

[Henry Hall]

It's your thread that you started, so it seems a bit incongruous to speak of taking a bullet when you brought it up. If you don't want to defend the subject raised any further due to constraints from the questions or objections that come up, that's certainly your call to make and probably the right one.

As to picking up the torch, even though I think I know the view of Knox et al. on what the Presbyterian view is, and have defended and grown in my understanding of it over the last 35 years, I'm just not sure what it is your are arguing for. Granting the Presbyterian view of the pretended holy days, their use of Romans 14, etc., it seems to me you are saying more and that there can be no civil holidays at all. If you are not saying that, then my apologies. But it is not the Presbyterian view that there cannot be civilly appointed days off from work, or voluntary of ourselves for that matter like vacation if we have been afforded that freedom and providence, and that the only such time or days off from work can only be either the God ordained Sabbath or days of fasting or thanksgiving due to circumstances that call for such. Such time off while we have liberty for it, remains governed by God's ten commandments as to how we or the authority calling them, lawfully or unlawfully employ or appoint such days and times. That it has been recognized that such times are granted and not disallowed, see such as in Calderwood and Gillespie who note the Scottish observance of the first day of the year as a civil holiday in their arguments against the pretended holy days

Yes, I started it, and while I am surprised by the tenacious opposition, I am willing to continue to defend my position with respect to this one particular wannabe holy day, that it is contrary to God's moral Law.

My argument in this case (Bill is evidently right that it was not the best angle), is that since the US Thanksgiving fails to be one of the special emergent conditions which would warrant setting aside a day of thanksgiving, and is instead just celebrated yearly regardless of the events surrounding it, by decree of (if you are correct, Chris) an unregenerate ruler, and failing to name Whom it is to Whom thanks are due, it is contrary to the command to labor in the way we should.

But I am still willing to defend my position with respect to the US Thanksgiving.

Bring it.

 

[Henry Hall]

to argue for the notion that the fourth commandment is a command to engage in gainful employment

No one here is doing that.

 

[Henry Hall]

you have six days for your own affairs, but one day is to be kept holy and exclusively for the things of God (excepting works of necessity and mercy).

Hey! I recognize that! That's my view!

 

[Henry Hall]

The notion that it is a mandate to enforce a six-day working week comes from Christian worldview thinking rather than the Reformed confessions.

False dichotomy, but again, the mandate mentioned doesn't represent me.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

So as to your comment regarding July 1, etc. you are not simply opposed to civil holidays per se, but this one of Thanksgiving? That is my question.

My argument in this case (Bill is evidently right that it was not the best angle), is that since the US Thanksgiving fails to be one of the special emergent conditions which would warrant setting aside a day of thanksgiving, and is instead just celebrated yearly regardless of the events surrounding it, by decree of (if you are correct, Chris) an unregenerate ruler, and failing to name Whom it is to Whom thanks are due, it is contrary to the command to labor in the way we should.

But I am still willing to defend my position with respect to the US Thanksgiving.

Bring it.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

No one here is doing that.

Then what is your point? You started a thread entitled "Six days shalt thou labour" as if it were a self-evident argument for not observing American Thanksgiving (about the propriety of which I pass no judgment). That argument only makes sense if you are maintaining that the fourth commandment requires that we work on each day of the week in a manner exactly analogous to how we keep the Sabbath holy (i.e. it is a moral requirement to work on each of the six days, not merely a permission to do so).

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

False dichotomy, but again, the mandate mentioned doesn't represent me.

It is not a false dichotomy. The Reformed confessions simply do not make the grandiose claims that are made by Christian worldview proponents.

 

[Henry Hall]

Then what is your point? You started a thread entitled "Six days shalt thou labour" as if it were a self-evident argument for not observing American Thanksgiving (about the propriety of which I pass no judgment). That argument only makes sense if you are maintaining that the fourth commandment requires that we work on each day of the week in a manner exactly analogous to how we keep the Sabbath holy (i.e. it is a moral requirement to work on each of the six days, not merely a permission to do so).

As I said above,
"My argument in this case (Bill is evidently right that it was not the best angle), is that since the US Thanksgiving fails to be one of the special emergent conditions which would warrant setting aside a day of thanksgiving, and is instead just celebrated yearly regardless of the events surrounding it, by decree of (if you are correct, Chris) an unregenerate ruler, and failing to name Whom it is to Whom thanks are due, it is contrary to the command to labor in the way we should."
If you read the posts, this includes significant nuance e.g. recreation as labor/work.

 

[Henry Hall]

It is not a false dichotomy. The Reformed confessions simply do not make the grandiose claims that are made by Christian worldview proponents.

Define "Christian worldview thinking."

 

[Phil D.]

failing to name Whom it is to Whom thanks are due,

Following the Battle of Gettysburg in 1863, in an effort to unite the country and acknowledge “the gracious gifts of the Most High God,” President Abraham Lincoln asked the American people to come together and “set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a Day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens.” Today, this tradition continues with millions of Americans gathering each year to give their thanks for the same blessings of liberty...

As we gather today with those we hold dear, let us give thanks to Almighty God for the many blessings we enjoy. United together as one people, in gratitude for the freedoms and prosperity that thrive across our land, we acknowledge God as the source of all good gifts. We ask Him for protection and wisdom and for opportunities this Thanksgiving to share with others some measure of what we have so providentially received.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Thursday, November 28, 2019, as a National Day of Thanksgiving.​

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Thanksgiving fails to be one of the special emergent conditions which would warrant setting aside a day of thanksgiving, and is instead just celebrated yearly regardless of the events surrounding it

So a remembrance of a time of provision, where indians helped europeans, and they came together as friends to feast, which helped establish our country as we know it today, isn't worth celebrating or remembering?

On a side note, what about all the people who come together to give thanks on this day with gratitude in their hearts, how could such a humble position of heart be wrong?

 

[RamistThomist]

Define "Christian worldview thinking."

He probably means all the intellectual descendants of Abraham Kuyper.

 

[Henry Hall]

Following the Battle of Gettysburg in 1863, in an effort to unite the country and acknowledge “the gracious gifts of the Most High God,” President Abraham Lincoln asked the American people to come together and “set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a Day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens.” Today, this tradition continues with millions of Americans gathering each year to give their thanks for the same blessings of liberty...

As we gather today with those we hold dear, let us give thanks to Almighty God for the many blessings we enjoy. United together as one people, in gratitude for the freedoms and prosperity that thrive across our land, we acknowledge God as the source of all good gifts. We ask Him for protection and wisdom and for opportunities this Thanksgiving to share with others some measure of what we have so providentially received.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Thursday, November 28, 2019, as a National Day of Thanksgiving.​

"Adoption is an act of the free grace of God,307 in and for his only Son Jesus Christ,308 whereby all those that are justified are received into the number of his children,309 have his name put upon them,310 the Spirit of his Son given to them,311 are under his fatherly care and dispensations,312 admitted to all the liberties and privileges of the sons of God, made heirs of all the promises, and fellow-heirs with Christ in glory.313"

Lincoln?

Actually, it wouldn't matter if it were an otherwise good man who set such times; he shouldn't do it.

 

[Henry Hall]

So a remembrance of a time of provision, where indians helped europeans, and they came together as friends to feast, which helped establish our country as we know it today, isn't worth celebrating or remembering?

It might have been that year.

 

[Henry Hall]

On a side note, what about all the people who come together to give thanks on this day with gratitude in their hearts, how could such a humble position of heart be wrong?

It's only a humble position of heart if they are thanking God and worshipping according to God's Word, which is the matter at issue.

 

[Tom Hart]

I asked this earlier, but I have not received a response.

Are you arguing (as this thread's title would appear to indicate) that Thanksgiving is forbidden because Christians are to work six days a week? (All comparable national observances, it follows, would be forbidden, ie. Independence Day.)

Or are you arguing that celebrating Thanksgiving is forbidden because it is is pretended holy day?

 

[Tom Hart]

...I am surprised by the tenacious opposition...

I think I'm not the only one who's just trying to figure out what you're saying.

 

[Username3000]

 

[OPC'n]

Weak analogy.
Was Thanksgiving required by God when you were born, but then, during your lifetime, was being phased out by God Himself?

So you're saying that the part of Romans 14 which speaks about observing special days was meant only for the people of that time? We now can just ignore most of Romans 14? Sounds strange. Never heard of any Puritan advocating that. Also, because some of the Jews (not the Romans obviously) had practiced observing special days before Christ they and only they were allowed to break the 4th Commandment (labor 6 days) in order to observe a special day that was no longer important or holy? That doesn't sound in keeping with sound doctrine to me. God didn't want to hurt their feelings so he was like, "Ok, fine! You and only you can break the 4 Commandment and keep observing these special days instead of working when everyone else will be required to do so."? I think Peter got a much different type of memo.

 

[Henry Hall]

I asked this earlier, but I have not received a response.

Are you arguing (as this thread's title would appear to indicate) that Thanksgiving is forbidden because Christians are to work six days a week? (All comparable national observances, it follows, would be forbidden, ie. Independence Day.)

Or are you arguing that celebrating Thanksgiving is forbidden because it is is pretended holy day?

Tom, let me know if this doesn't answer your question.

From #24:

Argument: "Six days shalt thou labor. In the absence of a lawful exception, such as a 'special emergent occasion,' it is to be followed."

Let p = "Six days shalt thou labor"
Let q = "A lawful exception is present"


p or q
~q
______
p

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Define "Christian worldview thinking."

He probably means all the intellectual descendants of Abraham Kuyper.

Yes.

 

[Tom Hart]

Tom, let me know if this doesn't answer your question.

From #24:

Argument: "Six days shalt thou labor. In the absence of a lawful exception, such as a 'special emergent occasion,' it is to be followed."

Let p = "Six days shalt thou labor"
Let q = "A lawful exception is present"


p or q
~q
______
p

OK, thanks. Let me know if I've got this.

We must labour six days a week unless there's a "special emergent occasion". Since Thanksgiving is not such an occasion, it is not legitimate to take a day off.

On top of that, Thanksgiving is a pretended holy day, right?

 

[Tom Hart]

@Henry Hall,

Sorry if I missed it, but have you anywhere defined "labour"? Such a definition would be helpful.

 

[RamistThomist]

Let p = "Six days shalt thou labor"
Let q = "A lawful exception is present"

Except the same Decalogue that gave that command also commanded Feast Days, which meant there would be days that you wouldn't labor. I'm not saying those days are binding, but the command did allow for exceptions.