Apologist4Him
Puritan Board Freshman
1.) First, I received a private message from an atheist at another messageboard, his message reads as follows:
"I have yet to draw any conclusions on this topic (in reference to TAG), so if your interested, i'll continue the thread with you. But you can't talk over my head, because i'll be honest, this topic is difficult for me...especially since I have no background at all in philosophy. (in fact, just between us, I didn't even finish high-school)
I'm intrigued by this topic and would like to learn more, so if you want to start anew, lets get on a 101 level.
If you were going to teach the basics of the TAG to someone like me, what questions would you ask first...or what principles would you first address? I do have somewhat of a grasp on the TAG, but for the sake of clarity, let's start from the bottom...and for the record, I don't want a debate, but rather a discussion.
If your concerned about going in circles with other posters, and would rather converse via PM, i'm willing to do that as well."
2.) My first response to him was the following:
Hi Ray,
Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I would be glad to try and help, to be your guide into at least understanding TAG better. Perhaps in the process I will also learn how to explain TAG better.
I suppose the first step would be to provide you with a list of resources. A list of people whom helped me to learn TAG. I learned TAG by listening and reading to:
1. Dr. Cornelius Van Til, is considered by many to be the father of presuppositonalism. Which is not to say he created something new, but that he formulated and defined something that was already in the thoughts and words of those before him. Kind of like the names and defintions of such things as trees and birds. In other words,, trees and birds pre-date their technical dictionary definition. I learned the most from Van Til by purchasing the following software which includes more than 50 hours of audio: http://www.logos.com/products/details/517 The Works of Cornelius Van Til CD-ROM really is a most invaluable resource on Dr. Van Til. The best free online Van Til resources which I am aware of are: http://www.vantil.info/ and http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...ius^Van^Til
2. Dr. Greg Bahnsen is probably the most well known and gifted student of Van Til. A really nice and short biography of Dr. Bahnsen can be read at: https://host186.ipowerweb.com/~kenneth1/appointed.htm . In my estimation, Dr. Bahnsen furthered Dr. Van Til's formulation and definiton of TAG more than anybody else. More than 100 of Dr. Bahnsen's articles can be read for free at: http://www.cmfnow.com/page.asp?id=8 . If you are interested further, you may want to listen to his series of transcendental Argument lectures: http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod...=207&1=391&2=-1 and or his analysis and refutation of Dr. Michael Martin: http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod...=207&1=408&2=-1 (also available on CD's). If you want to learn and are up to a challenge, I recommend Dr. Bahnsen's material.
3. Michael Butler is probably the most well known and gifted student of Greg Bahnsen. He is fairly young (I think he is in his 30's), but he may become the next Van Til/Bahnsen, the Van Til/Bahnsen of our generation. Michael Butler's response to TANG can be read at: http://www.reformed.org/apologetics/martin/pen896.html . You can listen to a few lectures on apologetics given by him at: http://www.newhorizonchurch.ca/conf/audio/apologetics/
4. TheFiveSolas (of Tweb, especially his posts in the following thread: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145 )
Next, we should probably discuss worldviews and wordview thinking. Questions like, what is a worldview, are important to any discussion of TAG. Perhaps this is where I should learn more about your understanding of worldview thinking. How would you describe a worldview?
I think I will stop here for now, and continue later, I really did appreciate your response.
Kind Regards,
A4H
3.) Next he responded to me with the following message:
"Thanks for the links...i'll definitely check them out! Oh, and if you'd rather post in the open forum (as it may be easier), I could ask that only you and I be allowed to post. But if you don't mind PM, then I don't either.
A worldview? No one has ever asked me that before...it seems like a vauge question and could be covered by a broad range of responses. But i'll give it a try.
I don't think I have a fixed way of looking at and perceiving the world. Over the years, I have come across information that shattered former views, and other times, I have come full circle to once again embrace a view that I held long ago.
When I say that I am an "atheist", I really don't even know what that means, in that, I get the concept of atheism and agnosticism confused. Currently, I don't subscribe to any beliefs in gods, so I guess that makes me an atheist. But in actuality, I really don't know if gods exist, so I guess that makes me an agnostic. So from a religious standpoint ( although I don't think atheism/agnosticism is a religion per se), I have an atheist/agnostic worldview (and all that that implies.)
I sort of see the world holisticly to. Every person, place, thing and event works in sync like a macro-organism, no matter how evil or good they may appear. It's sort of like the sympathetic and para-sympathetic nervous system. They work against each other in a way, but the constant mutual tension is what keeps them both intact and operable.
Does that help?"
Now, I am trying to decide where to take the discussion from here. Should I give him the Ronald Nash defintion of a worldview, and go into detail on the antithesis between the Christian worldview and non-Christian worldviews?
Should I also bring objectivism and subjectivism into the discussion by explaing them and how they effect a person's worldview?
Thank you in advance for your input and help.
In Christ,
A4H
"I have yet to draw any conclusions on this topic (in reference to TAG), so if your interested, i'll continue the thread with you. But you can't talk over my head, because i'll be honest, this topic is difficult for me...especially since I have no background at all in philosophy. (in fact, just between us, I didn't even finish high-school)
I'm intrigued by this topic and would like to learn more, so if you want to start anew, lets get on a 101 level.
If you were going to teach the basics of the TAG to someone like me, what questions would you ask first...or what principles would you first address? I do have somewhat of a grasp on the TAG, but for the sake of clarity, let's start from the bottom...and for the record, I don't want a debate, but rather a discussion.
If your concerned about going in circles with other posters, and would rather converse via PM, i'm willing to do that as well."
2.) My first response to him was the following:
Hi Ray,
Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I would be glad to try and help, to be your guide into at least understanding TAG better. Perhaps in the process I will also learn how to explain TAG better.
I suppose the first step would be to provide you with a list of resources. A list of people whom helped me to learn TAG. I learned TAG by listening and reading to:
1. Dr. Cornelius Van Til, is considered by many to be the father of presuppositonalism. Which is not to say he created something new, but that he formulated and defined something that was already in the thoughts and words of those before him. Kind of like the names and defintions of such things as trees and birds. In other words,, trees and birds pre-date their technical dictionary definition. I learned the most from Van Til by purchasing the following software which includes more than 50 hours of audio: http://www.logos.com/products/details/517 The Works of Cornelius Van Til CD-ROM really is a most invaluable resource on Dr. Van Til. The best free online Van Til resources which I am aware of are: http://www.vantil.info/ and http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...ius^Van^Til
2. Dr. Greg Bahnsen is probably the most well known and gifted student of Van Til. A really nice and short biography of Dr. Bahnsen can be read at: https://host186.ipowerweb.com/~kenneth1/appointed.htm . In my estimation, Dr. Bahnsen furthered Dr. Van Til's formulation and definiton of TAG more than anybody else. More than 100 of Dr. Bahnsen's articles can be read for free at: http://www.cmfnow.com/page.asp?id=8 . If you are interested further, you may want to listen to his series of transcendental Argument lectures: http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod...=207&1=391&2=-1 and or his analysis and refutation of Dr. Michael Martin: http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod...=207&1=408&2=-1 (also available on CD's). If you want to learn and are up to a challenge, I recommend Dr. Bahnsen's material.
3. Michael Butler is probably the most well known and gifted student of Greg Bahnsen. He is fairly young (I think he is in his 30's), but he may become the next Van Til/Bahnsen, the Van Til/Bahnsen of our generation. Michael Butler's response to TANG can be read at: http://www.reformed.org/apologetics/martin/pen896.html . You can listen to a few lectures on apologetics given by him at: http://www.newhorizonchurch.ca/conf/audio/apologetics/
4. TheFiveSolas (of Tweb, especially his posts in the following thread: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145 )
Next, we should probably discuss worldviews and wordview thinking. Questions like, what is a worldview, are important to any discussion of TAG. Perhaps this is where I should learn more about your understanding of worldview thinking. How would you describe a worldview?
I think I will stop here for now, and continue later, I really did appreciate your response.
Kind Regards,
A4H
3.) Next he responded to me with the following message:
"Thanks for the links...i'll definitely check them out! Oh, and if you'd rather post in the open forum (as it may be easier), I could ask that only you and I be allowed to post. But if you don't mind PM, then I don't either.
A worldview? No one has ever asked me that before...it seems like a vauge question and could be covered by a broad range of responses. But i'll give it a try.
I don't think I have a fixed way of looking at and perceiving the world. Over the years, I have come across information that shattered former views, and other times, I have come full circle to once again embrace a view that I held long ago.
When I say that I am an "atheist", I really don't even know what that means, in that, I get the concept of atheism and agnosticism confused. Currently, I don't subscribe to any beliefs in gods, so I guess that makes me an atheist. But in actuality, I really don't know if gods exist, so I guess that makes me an agnostic. So from a religious standpoint ( although I don't think atheism/agnosticism is a religion per se), I have an atheist/agnostic worldview (and all that that implies.)
I sort of see the world holisticly to. Every person, place, thing and event works in sync like a macro-organism, no matter how evil or good they may appear. It's sort of like the sympathetic and para-sympathetic nervous system. They work against each other in a way, but the constant mutual tension is what keeps them both intact and operable.
Does that help?"
Now, I am trying to decide where to take the discussion from here. Should I give him the Ronald Nash defintion of a worldview, and go into detail on the antithesis between the Christian worldview and non-Christian worldviews?
Should I also bring objectivism and subjectivism into the discussion by explaing them and how they effect a person's worldview?
Thank you in advance for your input and help.
In Christ,
A4H