Some basic questions for Paedobaptists

[Rufus]

Okay, I'm examing both sides of the debate (and almost getting a headache from it all), of course my mind tends to be interfered by untrue thoughts about certain theologies until somebody out there tells me that belief otherwise.

So my questions are:

1) Because Salvation is by faith alone does one need to be infant baptized or baptized as an adult in order to go to heaven?

2) What does covenant paedo baptism symbolize?

3) If the child turns out being lets say, extremly anti-christian, what is there relation to the covenant?

4) Where does being regenerated come into this? Are children somehow regenerated at baptism (I'm guessing a no on the Baptismal Regeneration) or are they saved later on by the grace of God?


Any good basic summaries from good theologians?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

1) Because Salvation is by faith alone does one need to be infant baptized or baptized as an adult in order to go to heaven?

Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone on account of the righteousness of Christ alone. Faith is the instrument by which a person clings to Christ and His righteousness. God saves unworthy sinners by grace by making them alive (regeneration) and their living hearts turn in reproach of their sin (repentance) and to Christ for refuge (faith). God uses means toward this end - the Word and Sacraments. These are visible, historical means by which God manifests His grace and He works through these means to bring about faith and repentance. Asking whether or not one needs to be baptized is missing the point. God works through Word and Sacrament to convert and save. God does not need the means to save but Has promised, in His Word, that He uses them for His saving purposes.

2) What does covenant paedo baptism symbolize?

See the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 28 (Westminster Confession of Faith - The PuritanBoard). You can find similar definitions in the major Reformed Confessions. The London Baptist Confession, which you claim to confess, says much the same (minus the covenant of grace part and a few nuances):

"I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church, but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, or his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life: which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in his Churchy until the end of the world."

3) If the child turns out being lets say, extremly anti-christian, what is there relation to the covenant?

Their relationship to the Covenant is that of one who shrinks back in disbelief. They are in great danger of falling into the hands of the living God for their highhanded rebellion of the things they have tasted of. Their relationship is one of visible member of the Covenant and the Church needs to make every effort to call them to repentance and faith. Should they continue in their rebellion then they need to be disciplined, expelled from the Church and the visible means of grace, and treated as an unbeliever in the hopes that they might turn and be saved.

4) Where does being regenerated come into this?

God alone is the author and finisher of our faith. The Spirit blows where He Sovereignly determines (John 3). Unless a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Are children somehow regenerated at baptism (I'm guessing a no on the Baptismal Regeneration) or are they saved later on by the grace of God?

See my previous answer. No man knows when the Holy Spirit regenerates and a visible profession cannot make certain to man what is only known by God.

 

[Rufus]

See my previous answer. No man knows when the Holy Spirit regenerates and a visible profession cannot make certain to man what is only known by God.

So there's that signifies that somebody has been born again? i.e. distaste for sin, pursuit of God, way of life, etc?

 

[Rufus]

So there's that signifies that somebody has been born again? i.e. distaste for sin, pursuit of God, way of life, etc?

When you take the exit that leads to Wally-World and see a sign for Wally-World, does that mean you're at Wally-World yet? No. It's a sign, though, that Wally-World exists and you can make your way to it.

So somebody born into the covenant and is starting to become worldy and than fully embraces such and is lost? Can they ever be saved later in life?

 

[Notthemama1984]

Sure they could be saved later on. I would change your statement slightly by pointing out that we are all worldly and fully embrace it apart from regeneration. I do not "become worldly." So every salvation occurs after that person has completely embraced the world and its ways.

 

[Rufus]

Sure they could be saved later on. I would change your statement slightly by pointing out that we are all worldly and fully embrace it apart from regeneration. I do not "become worldly." So every salvation occurs after that person has completely embraced the world and its ways.

So they could or could not be saved later on? Could they sit in a church there entire life and never be saved?

I'm actually willing to be paedo if I could understand it better and be convinced of it, I really want to understand it.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Sure they could sit in church their entire life and be non-elect. I know it happens in Baptist churches just as much as Presbyterian churches.

 

[Rufus]

Even Christians needs to hear the Gospel regularly.

I agree.

I know it happens in Baptist churches just as much as Presbyterian churches.

Absolutely true!

 

[Peairtach]

So they could or could not be saved later on? Could they sit in a church there entire life and never be saved?

I'm actually willing to be paedo if I could understand it better and be convinced of it, I really want to understand it.

E.g. I've an uncle who was baptised as an infant and attended church all his life, but didn't ask the session to go to the Lord's Supper. By his own account he was otherwise very worldly and unChristian in his behaviour, and didn't come to faith in Christ until he was 50. Shortly thereafter he became a communicant member.

 

[Rufus]

So they could or could not be saved later on? Could they sit in a church there entire life and never be saved?

I'm actually willing to be paedo if I could understand it better and be convinced of it, I really want to understand it.

E.g. I've an uncle who was baptised as an infant and attended church all his life, but didn't ask the session to go to the Lord's Supper. By his own account he was otherwise very worldly and unChristian in his behaviour, and didn't come to faith in Christ until he was 50. Shortly thereafter he became a communicant member.

So a communicant member is somebody premitted to the Lords supper right?

 

[Peairtach]

Yes.

You have to remember that the Passover and the Lord's Supper have always acted as a kind of "inner door" to the Church which can be opened or closed to you depending, in order to be used by the Spirit to maintain the holiness and godly order of the Church.

You could be circumcised in the OT yet you may not be entitled to the Passover until you are of age (maybe out of all the Covenant people only adult males were required to be there?) or if you are unclean or temporarily "cut off" (excommunicated) for a sin.

Even in Baptist churches, just because you're baptised doesn't mean that you would be allowed to the Lord's Supper e.g. if you are drinking too heavily, living with your girlfriend or done for shop-lifting, ignoring the Sabbath.

 

[nwink]

Sean, as the baptism issue is a subset of Covenant Theology, there are a lot of factors involved in really understanding baptism. In other words, the paedobaptist believes from Scripture (Col 2:11) that circumcision and baptism are the same in essence. Therefore, in order to fully understand baptism, one needs to understand the meaning of circumcision, too. Circumcision was something that joined the person into the visible Church and was a sign and seal of the righteousness of faith (Rom 4:11). If circumcision and baptism are the same in essence, then we need to understand the theology of sacraments -- what it means that baptism is a "sign" and a "seal."

Where the Baptists go wrong is to say baptism "signs" and "seals" what has already happened in the person's heart (conversion). Baptism, instead, "signs" by pointing away from the person to their need for cleansing of the heart, for righteousness, for Christ. Baptism's "seal" is not something conditioned on the heart of the baptized individual, but it is God's guarantee that whoever believes the Gospel will be declared righteous in His sight. Therefore, a reprobate baptized individual is condemned by their baptism for not embracing the Gospel. The reprobate's baptism is not invalid because it still points to the person's need to repent and it still guarantees the salvation God has purchased for whoever believes.

Where does regeneration fit in? Repentance and belief in the Gospel is walking in obedience with the sign/seal the child has received in baptism. What a blessing it is to the covenant child to receive baptism in the administration of the Church...to always be encouraged to remember and improve his/her baptism, to have received this sacrament of God's pointing-to and promising benefits to him/her, to always remember his/her need to repent and believe, to always sit under the means of grace of the preaching of the Word!

 

[Rufus]

Where does regeneration fit in? Repentance and belief in the Gospel is walking in obedience with the sign/seal the child has received in baptism.

What if the the person is a convert and not yet baptized?

Also, if the persons parents are unregenerate?

And what about places where it just becomes tradition and people forget the true reason behind it?

 

[Peairtach]

He/she will be baptised as an adult in a paedo baptist (or covenantal baptist rather) church.

 

[nwink]

What if the the person is a convert and not yet baptized?

If the person is a convert and not yet baptized, he/she needs to be baptized to walk in obedience to Christ's command.

Furthermore, baptism for converts still has the same significance as it does for infants of believers. The difference is that the converts are baptized after they have become converted (just like the adult baptisms in Acts), which paedobaptists do not deny. But even though the convert is already converted, his/her baptism still points to his/her need to always repent and believe, and it guarantees that God counts the individual as righteous when he/she has faith in Him. Or think of it this way -- baptism for the adult convert has the same significance as the adult convert who was baptized as an infant. Or consider that the requirement to have a circumcised heart to keep God's covenant was not done away with if the person had a circumcised heart (even though that's impossible for the heart to become uncircumcised...)-- it is a constant reminder that we need to improve our baptism, that we need to always live in light of what baptism signs and seals.