Sons of Patriarchy

Sure, it is good to be accurate in identifying things for what they are. Nor should we call everyone a liberal who holds to a liberal theological position. However, when we notice people espousing things that have their genesis in 19th and early 20th century liberalism and have only been on steroids since then infecting even conservative evangelicalism, we need to perk up and pay attention. Just as pointing out that Bell's podcast uses the CT verbiage of "deconstruction" should have us alert and wary moving forward with it.
We concur.

BTW, since you are a RPCNA member, it may interest you that I attended Sharon RPCNA in Morning Sun back when I lived in southeast Iowa and the RPCNA was the only Reformed option. I don't advocate exclusive psalmody, but practically speaking we've used only two hymns in the last year and one of them was the Magnificat from the Genevan Psalter. There's a former RPCNA member who lives about an hour away from us with whom I'm in contact and he may eventually end up attending at Hazelgreen since there are no Reformed options in the Ozarks community where he lives that will accept his infant baptism.

As I've said many times, when people sing the Psalms, they're going to get a perspective of God's hatred for sin and terrifying wrath poured out upon those who reject him. It's a very different picture of God than the feminized theology of many of our hymns, even the so called "great hymns of the faith" from the 1800s.
 
We concur.

BTW, since you are a RPCNA member, it may interest you that I attended Sharon RPCNA in Morning Sun back when I lived in southeast Iowa and the RPCNA was the only Reformed option. I don't advocate exclusive psalmody, but practically speaking we've used only two hymns in the last year and one of them was the Magnificat from the Genevan Psalter. There's a former RPCNA member who lives about an hour away from us with whom I'm in contact and he may eventually end up attending at Hazelgreen since there are no Reformed options in the Ozarks community where he lives that will accept his infant baptism.

As I've said many times, when people sing the Psalms, they're going to get a perspective of God's hatred for sin and terrifying wrath poured out upon those who reject him. It's a very different picture of God than the feminized theology of many of our hymns, even the so called "great hymns of the faith" from the 1800s.
I went to seminary with the current pastor at Sharon and one of the sons of that congregation is a member here. It truly is a small world.
 
I suppose this would mean though that we should allow for some exceptions. However, it should be just that, an exception, to be taken by a case by case basis. For Spurgeon though, since he was a Baptist, ordination works kind of differently anyway. Most general Baptist churches I visit today, the person preaching could just be someone from the congregation they are giving a chance. Other times it is a very formal process (in the reformed Baptist world). With Wilson though, he claims to be a presbyterian, so it should have followed some formal process.
Agreed. At best, Wilson should have called himself an Independent ala the New England Puritans.

Some background may be helpful. I was on the board of the Congregational Studies Conference when Doug Wilson was known mostly for his views on Christian education, and we invited him to New England back in the early 1990s to speak on the classical roots of Puritan education. I was very impressed, and it wasn't just me. He knows his stuff and people in the audience who were seminary professors, and on the faculty of Ivy League and Ivy-adjacent schools, were amazed at this young minister out of nowhere in Idaho who knew New England history and educational philosophy better than many of us did.

Doug Wilson hasn't always been a convinced Presbyterian. I'm not going to comment on his current views of church government because that could be unfair to him. He can speak for himself and very likely has done so, and in detail. However, it's not irrelevant that, at least in the early days of his denomination, he had people involved who were committed to Congregational polity and viewed his denomination as being open-minded enough to accept classical Reformed Congregational views of the New England Puritans, as well as the Independents back in England.

Wilson's theology can be criticized. The major NAPARC denominations have done so. When the URC produced its report on Wilson, I gave up trying to defend him as being in the line of Klaas Schilder and a certain type of covenantal theology that is allowed by the Three Forms of Unity but outside the bounds of the Westminster Standards. (To be clear, I've always opposed the Federal Vision -- my view used to be that it was an error, but within the bounds of the Dutch tradition though not the Westminster tradition. That is no longer my position and some of what I wrote years ago, before the URC report, I would not write today.)

But I don't think it's a fair criticism to say that Wilson is not a minister. He was ordained in a broadly evangelical context, he and his church became more Reformed over time, and at least early on, he viewed his church as being more in line with the Cromwell/Owen/Mather side of the English Reformation than with the stricter Presbyterian position.

There are lot of pastors in Reformed churches who started out as something other than Reformed.
 
Neo-Hitlerism is edgy and subverts the mainstream narrative they want you to believe. Therefore it is worth listening to. Don't be close-minded, now. Real men aren't afraid of a little debate. You're not a sissy, are you?
This is tangential, but it will probably come up in this series: some of Wilson's disciples, namely those who follow Webbon, are currently debating whether Hitler was a model Christian prince. It's gotten pretty ugly. Webbon, to be fair, does not think Hitler was a good Christian prince. Still, it's a talking point in his circles.

I realize this is Wilson-adjacent, not Wilson himself, but this kind of stuff is bad fruit. Good trees do not produce bad fruit and we can know churches by the fruit they produce.

Wilson needs to clearly and loudly distinguish himself from people in his circles who say these things, or accept the consequences. It's not enough to say, "I don't agree." Wilson needs to lead a charge against this stuff. To be fair, the Antioch Declaration may be a first step in that direction, and I am cautiously optimistic that it won't be the last.

FYI, I have multiple members of my family who were very proud of their service in the US Army fighting Mussolini and proving they were loyal American citizens of Italian ancestry. Fascism is a SERIOUS red line for me. I know better than a lot of people what was wrong in Italian culture and governance that led to the rise of fascism, not only in Italy but also in Franco's Spain and the "caudillo culture" of Latin American military dictatorships. A major part of why I am Reformed is that we believe in the rule of law, i.e., "Lex Rex," and not the power of "patrons" who are above the law and gather followers who are loyal to a person and not a principle.

I think Doug Wilson understands that difference. I am not sure some of his followers do.
 
@darrellmaurina - noting that you have since changed your position, I'd be interested to hear why you once considered FV beyond the pale of the Westminster standards but not the Three Forms? Worded another way, I'm curious what differences you saw between the two systems.
 
crude and it goes against my sense of modesty. But you need to think about it in order to grasp it. They have different sexual organs for a reason. They show the distinct roles of man and woman.
Yes, it is crude and immodest to say that we derive the man-woman/husband-wife paradigm, from which we are to live out a distinctively Christian anthropology that proclaims Christ to the world, from our sexual organs. Am I alone in being unsettled in seeing the denial of an analogy between the triune God who made us like himself, one mankind, male and female, in procession and embrace, in order to set forth in its place an analogy between ourselves and our reproductive organs? Your natural theology is precisely the teaching of Doug Wilson, yet his (im)modesty does not prevent him from spelling it out in the crudest of terms. The heart of Doug Wilson's project is dominionism; he wants to "conquer" and "colonize" the world, and to this end he enlists the sacred and mysterious act of marriage.
 
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Yes, it is crude and immodest to say that we derive the man-woman/husband-wife paradigm, from which we are to live out a distinctively Christian anthropology that proclaims Christ to the world, from our sexual organs. Am I alone in being unsettled in seeing the denial of an analogy between the triune God who made us like himself, one mankind, male and female, in procession and embrace, in order to set forth in its place an analogy between ourselves and our reproductive organs? Your natural theology is precisely the teaching of Doug Wilson, yet his (im)modesty does not prevent him from spelling it out in the crudest of terms. The heart of Doug Wilson's project is dominionism; he wants to "conquer" and "colonize" the world, and to this end he enlists the sacred and mysterious act of marriage.
What is being fruitful and making disciples if not conquering? What is wrong with that?
 
an analogy between the triune God who made us like himself, one mankind, male and female, in procession and embrace,
You are making (too) much of the truth that mankind is made in God's image. We need to be careful in how far we take it. It is appropriate to say that, just as God is triunely relational, so he made mankind to be relational. But that's as far as we can go. Being made in God's image is not meant to teach us about the specific relations of the Triune persons. For one, the Trinity is three persons, while male & female are two. Next, the Trinitarian relations are Father & Son, not husband and wife. The perichoresis of the three persons of the Trinity can't be pressed too far in explaining male/female relationships.
 
That isn’t the context of my response. Mine was about “the world.”
Th context of your response is DW and colonize and conquer. Sorry, but you can’t extract it from that context when the person you are responding to is making DW the context, particularly in relation to marriage. What’s wrong with it, as you ask, is what DW does with it. I’m answering your question.
 
Well said; insightful analysis. I don't see any better alternative, I think for a pluralistic, globalistic world, where Christians are the minority and can never hope to be the majority, a government of classical liberals is the best. Nothing might be better.
You are URC, Logan. You may want to look to your own Kuyperian tradition of political theology.

There are reasons why Kuyper was the key figure behind founding a new denomination and two newspapers, a daily Christian paper roughly comparable to World Magazine covering "secular" news and a weekly church paper covering church news, ran for and was elected to the Dutch Parliament, and eventually became prime minister of the Netherlands. While he didn't create his political party, the Anti-Revolutionary Party, he took it from a minor influence to becoming the dominant political party of his nation.

In the second half of the 1800s and well into the 1950s the Netherlands was known as the "Bible Belt" of Europe. It was the only significant traditionally Protestant country in Europe that successfully fought back against the French Revolution and its wicked ideals. (Some of the Catholic countries, for various reasons, also won that battle, but they were often associated with things that no evangelical Protestants and very few modern conservative Catholics would want to view as good models.)

You're going to legitimately ask, if Kuyperianism was so great, what happened to make the Netherlands such an awful place today? When liberalism got into the Gereformeerde Kerken in the 1950s, it destroyed not only the churches but also the nation. The Dutch today are something of a "burned over district" in which the Gospel faces extremely hard ground. Apostates are worse than unbelievers because they once knew the truth and rejected it.

I would personally argue that Kuyper's presumptive regeneration carried within itself the seeds of its own destruction by admitting unconverted people to communicant church membership. But I'm well aware that's a disputed point in the Reformed world and I don't want to derail this discussion needlessly for a side point that is tangential to political issues though crucial to doctrine.
 
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an analogy between the triune God who made us like himself, one mankind, male and female, in procession and embrace
The Scriptures never make that analogy. The Scriptures make the analogy between the Church and her Lord. The husband is the superior of his wife like Christ is the superior of the Church. The wife is the inferior of her husband like the Church is the inferior of Christ. These things couldn't be more plain in the New Testament. But you prefer to wrest the Scriptures, dismissing the plain teaching of the Word of God, and instead claim that your egalitarianism is founded on Trinitarian ontology and the imago dei, a connection that God's Word never makes.

You're twisting both Scripture and theology in the interest of trying to ground your false doctrine.
 
No, not bowing out. Leaving if you failed to express a conviction that your own 3FU represent, in principle, a "hellish vision" for the government of a nation. I'm not asking you to grant that it would be tough in today's political environment to see how a largely Godless Nation could do this correctly. I'm asking you whether, in principle, the Belgic Confession (that tracks with other Reformed Confessions) is in principle a "hellish vision" for the government of the people. We asked for your stated differences from the Confessions of your Church when you joined and I'd like to know if this is one of them.

Article 36: Of Magistrates.
We believe that our gracious God, because of the depravity of mankind, hath appointed kings, princes and magistrates, willing that the world should be governed by certain laws and policies; to the end that the dissoluteness of men might be restrained, and all things carried on among them with good order and decency. For this purpose he hath invested the magistracy with the sword, for the punishment of evil-doers, and for the protection of them that do well. And their office is, not only to have regard unto, and watch for the welfare of the civil state; but also that they protect the sacred ministry; and thus may remove and prevent all idolatry and false worship (see note below); that the kingdom of anti-Christ may be thus destroyed and the kingdom of Christ promoted. They must therefore countenance the preaching of the Word of the gospel everywhere, that God may be honored and worshipped by every one, of what state, quality, or condition so ever he may be, to subject himself to the magistrates; to pay tribute, to show due honor and respect to them, and to obey them in all things which are not repugnant to the Word of God; to supplicate for them in their prayers, that God may rule and guide them in all their ways, and that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. Wherefore we detest the Anabaptists and other seditious people, and in general all those who reject the higher powers and magistrates, and would subvert justice, introduce community of goods, and confound that decency and good order, which God hath established among men.

Rich, I don't agree with Logan on a number of issues, but the version of the Three Forms of Unity you cite hasn't been in common use among Dutch Reformed conservatives since the days of Abraham Kuyper, whose GKN made amendments comparable to the American Presbyterian revisions of the Westminster Confession.

There are a few Dutch Reformed denominations which **DO** affirm the original language, of which the most significant are those in the Gereformeerde Gemeenten tradition. Dr. Joel Beeke's Heritage Reformed Congregations are a split from the Netherlands Reformed Congregations, which are the American wing of the Gereformeerde Gemeenten.

This isn't mere theory. The original version of the Belgic Confession says the civil magistrate has the right to "remove and prevent" false worship and that was intended to mean the Reformed civil magistrate could forbid the practice of Roman Catholicism. It was later interpreted to argue that, following the Synod of Dordt, the civil government could forbid Arminianism. By the early 1800s when the de-facto state church had become liberal, the government claimed the right to send soldiers into churches to prevent conservative ministers of what became the Afscheiding from getting into the pulpit and preaching. (The Afscheiding is one of two roots of the Christian Reformed Church.) By the time that Abraham Kuyper led the Doleantie in the late 1800s and founded the Gereformeerde Kerken in Nederland (the other root of the Christian Reformed Church), conservatives had mostly decided the state had should not be trying to shut down churches, and Kuyper actively worked with Roman Catholics to advance his political goals, very much like the modern pro-life movement in the United States works with Catholics. (Francis Schaeffer and D. James Kennedy are direct heirs of Kuyper's views of cultural and political engagement.)

Most but not all Dutch conservatives agreed with Kuyper. The main exception was Rev. GH Kersten of the Gereformeerde Gemeenten who maintained the original version of the Belgic Confession and continued to argue that there could be no tolerance for Roman Catholics in the Protestant Netherlands, and that those who wanted toleration for Catholics should leave for Catholic Belgium. Because the Dutch Parliament has proportional representation that makes it possible for small minority parties to get members into office, Rev. Kersten was a member of Parliament and his opposition to sending a Dutch ambassador to what was left of the Papal States (Vatican City) brought down the conservative Dutch government and allowed a group of liberal parties to use a "divide and conquer" strategy to split conservatives.

I realize that Logan may well not know this history. Most modern Dutch Reformed people in the United States have not been taught the history of their own Dutch Reformed distinctives and why Dutch Reformed are not American Presbyterians (or for that matter, Scots or Scots-Irish or English Presbyterians). But as the Kersten example points out, the Belgic Confession's language has serious consequences and it was amended for a reason.

I believe Abraham Kuyper, Francis Schaeffer and D. James Kennedy were right to cooperate with Roman Catholics in the political realm. That's now the default American conservative position, as we see with most American evangelicals backing people like Justice Amy Coney Barrett for the Supreme Court.

But there is an older conservative position that says we need to forbid idolatry and false worship. If we take that stance, as outlined in the original version of the Belgic Confession and the Westminster Confession, we're going to end up where Kersten ended up, dividing the conservative movement and leading to the triumph of secular liberalism.

Take that position if you believe God requires it. It is the position of our Reformed forebears.

We're not in 1525 or 1625 but rather 2025. A lot has changed in the last five centuries and I think we need to recognize that while the Roman Catholic Church continues to have major theological problems, liberalism is worse, and it's not the Roman Catholics who are trying to shut down evangelical Protestant churches, schools and business, or drive us out of political and public life.

Criticize Catholic theology all you like. I'll probably agree most of the time.

But if you think putting a liberal on the US Supreme Court is better than putting a conservative Catholic in the Supreme Court, we have a real disagreement and I'm not going to back down on saying, with Kuyper and Schaeffer and D. James Kennedy, that we need to work with Catholics in the sphere of the civil magistrate.
 
Rich, I don't agree with Logan on a number of issues, but the version of the Three Forms of Unity you cite hasn't been in common use among Dutch Reformed conservatives since the days of Abraham Kuyper, whose GKN made amendments comparable to the American Presbyterian revisions of the Westminster Confession.

There are a few Dutch Reformed denominations which **DO** affirm the original language, of which the most significant are those in the Gereformeerde Gemeenten tradition. Dr. Joel Beeke's Heritage Reformed Congregations are a split from the Netherlands Reformed Congregations, which are the American wing of the Gereformeerde Gemeenten.

This isn't mere theory. The original version of the Belgic Confession says the civil magistrate has the right to "remove and prevent" false worship and that was intended to mean the Reformed civil magistrate could forbid the practice of Roman Catholicism. It was later interpreted to argue that, following the Synod of Dordt, the civil government could forbid Arminianism. By the early 1800s when the de-facto state church had become liberal, the government claimed the right to send soldiers into churches to prevent conservative ministers of what became the Afscheiding from getting into the pulpit and preaching. (The Afscheiding is one of two roots of the Christian Reformed Church.) By the time that Abraham Kuyper led the Doleantie in the late 1800s and founded the Gereformeerde Kerken in Nederland (the other root of the Christian Reformed Church), conservatives had mostly decided the state had should not be trying to shut down churches, and Kuyper actively worked with Roman Catholics to advance his political goals, very much like the modern pro-life movement in the United States works with Catholics. (Francis Schaeffer and D. James Kennedy are direct heirs of Kuyper's views of cultural and political engagement.)

Most but not all Dutch conservatives agreed with Kuyper. The main exception was Rev. GH Kersten of the Gereformeerde Gemeenten who maintained the original version of the Belgic Confession and continued to argue that there could be no tolerance for Roman Catholics in the Protestant Netherlands, and that those who wanted toleration for Catholics should leave for Catholic Belgium. Because the Dutch Parliament has proportional representation that makes it possible for small minority parties to get members into office, Rev. Kersten was a member of Parliament and his opposition to sending a Dutch ambassador to what was left of the Papal States (Vatican City) brought down the conservative Dutch government and allowed a group of liberal parties to use a "divide and conquer" strategy to split conservatives.

I realize that Logan may well not know this history. Most modern Dutch Reformed people in the United States have not been taught the history of their own Dutch Reformed distinctives and why Dutch Reformed are not American Presbyterians (or for that matter, Scots or Scots-Irish or English Presbyterians). But as the Kersten example points out, the Belgic Confession's language has serious consequences and it was amended for a reason.

I believe Abraham Kuyper, Francis Schaeffer and D. James Kennedy were right to cooperate with Roman Catholics in the political realm. That's now the default American conservative position, as we see with most American evangelicals backing people like Justice Amy Coney Barrett for the Supreme Court.

But there is an older conservative position that says we need to forbid idolatry and false worship. If we take that stance, as outlined in the original version of the Belgic Confession and the Westminster Confession, we're going to end up where Kersten ended up, dividing the conservative movement and leading to the triumph of secular liberalism.

Take that position if you believe God requires it. It is the position of our Reformed forebears.

We're not in 1525 or 1625 but rather 2025. A lot has changed in the last five centuries and I think we need to recognize that while the Roman Catholic Church continues to have major theological problems, liberalism is worse, and it's not the Roman Catholics who are trying to shut down evangelical Protestant churches, schools and business, or drive us out of political and public life.

Criticize Catholic theology all you like. I'll probably agree most of the time.

But if you think putting a liberal on the US Supreme Court is better than putting a conservative Catholic in the Supreme Court, we have a real disagreement and I'm not going to back down on saying, with Kuyper and Schaeffer and D. James Kennedy, that we need to work with Catholics in the sphere of the civil magistrate.
I appreciate your history lesson, and I've read a good bit about the history of the Dutch Church. I've stated elsewhere that I am happy to be Presbyterian because the 3FU was written prior to many controversies that allowed the orthodox Reformed to refine and consolidate their expressions, and it is captured well in the WCF. Kuyper's theological aberrations would not have been tolerated quite so easily as they were in the Netherlands (though even then, it was met with controversy).

That all said, the issue is quite irrelevant to the broader point I was making.

Nowhere did I advocate (and you can go back and read everything I wrote) for the imprisonment or death of idolaters. I did not advocate that Christians cannot cooperate with Roman Catholics for political reasons.

The narrow question being debated is whether it is a "hellish vision" *any time* the State enacts Laws respecting the first Table of the Law. Full stop.

I can adopt a historical position far from the drowning of heretics to demonstrate how impious that statement is.

I'm not an originalist for the Westminster Standards and adopt the American Revisions. Even so, the American revisions do not advocate for Classical Liberalism, where laws are only informed by evident human reason. The United States is a good example of a Federal Republic that enforced laws respecting the first Table of the Law without putting heretics to death. There were still blue laws in the nation in my memory. It was hardly an oppressive Sectarian State where idolaters were being hunted down, and it was far from the "hellish vision" that was warned if the Satte ever deigned to write laws that correspond to the general equity of the Law of God.
 
I appreciate your history lesson, and I've read a good bit about the history of the Dutch Church. I've stated elsewhere that I am happy to be Presbyterian because the 3FU was written prior to many controversies that allowed the orthodox Reformed to refine and consolidate their expressions, and it is captured well in the WCF. Kuyper's theological aberrations would not have been tolerated quite so easily as they were in the Netherlands (though even then, it was met with controversy).

That all said, the issue is quite irrelevant to the broader point I was making.

Nowhere did I advocate (and you can go back and read everything I wrote) for the imprisonment or death of idolaters. I did not advocate that Christians cannot cooperate with Roman Catholics for political reasons.

The narrow question being debated is whether it is a "hellish vision" *any time* the State enacts Laws respecting the first Table of the Law. Full stop.

I can adopt a historical position far from the drowning of heretics to demonstrate how impious that statement is.

I'm not an originalist for the Westminster Standards and adopt the American Revisions. Even so, the American revisions do not advocate for Classical Liberalism, where laws are only informed by evident human reason. The United States is a good example of a Federal Republic that enforced laws respecting the first Table of the Law without putting heretics to death. There were still blue laws in the nation in my memory. It was hardly an oppressive Sectarian State where idolaters were being hunted down, and it was far from the "hellish vision" that was warned if the Satte ever deigned to write laws that correspond to the general equity of the Law of God.


I think we mostly agree. The "hellish vision" language used by @Pomopu was infelicitous at best. I do think he may have picked up that language from some of the people in the Christian Reformed Church who teach at Calvin, or perhaps some of the "Two Kingdoms" people, or perhaps from the secular conservatives who view the era of Protestant Orthodoxy as being a horrible thing because of the Wars of Religion in France between Huguenots and Catholics and the German fights between Catholics and Lutherans and Calvinists.

My point was a narrow one, namely, that the version of the Belgic Confession you cited is not the version that Logan's church uses, or for that matter, almost any modern Dutch Reformed denomination.

I also agree with you that the Three Forms of Unity are early documents and leave some important things undefined which the later documents of the Westminster Assembly hammered out in detail. That has both good and bad points. A case can be made that where detail counted, i.e., fighting Arminianism, the Canons of Dordt provide the necessary detail, while the Three Forms of Unity allow greater diversity on other issues on which Reformed people have historically disagreed.

I have twice subscribed to the Three Forms of Unity and would do so again if I needed to do so.

I couldn't do that with the Westminster Standards, which were specifically written to exclude people with my views on church government. My views are well within the mainstream of the URC on church polity -- as a little side point of history, the section of the URC church order on local church property ownership was written on my computer and given to people in the URC who asked for my help since I knew the issues all too well from covering church property battles not only in the Dutch Reformed world but other denominations -- but my views on church government are not allowable under the Westminster Standards, or at least should not be allowed. A number of people in the PCA have tried to recruit me over the years and I have consistently told them that I take confessional subscription too seriously to do the "crossed fingers" approach that many in the PCA take with people who should not be allowed to become PCA ministers or elders, but are allowed in because they are "more or less Reformed on the big picture stuff."

That's not why we have confessions.
 
@darrellmaurina - noting that you have since changed your position, I'd be interested to hear why you once considered FV beyond the pale of the Westminster standards but not the Three Forms? Worded another way, I'm curious what differences you saw between the two systems.

Good question.

The Three Forms of Unity allow diversity on quite a few issues that are addressed with more specificity by the Westminster Standards. That's not a new thing. The Dutch have historically had a wide variety of views on church government and on the nature of the covenant, some of which are clearly out of bounds in a Westminster Standards context and others which have usually been viewed as "out of bounds" for Presbyterianism but have sometimes been tolerated as exceptions to the confessions.

It's important to remember that a Dutch Reformed minister or elder CANNOT take exceptions to his confessions. He must subscribe to every article and point of doctrine. That means confessional subscription doesn't work the same way in the two major confessional traditions that exist in the modern Reformed world.

Remember that Joel Beeke and Klaas Schilder and Abraham Kuyper and Herman Hoeksema all subscribed to the Three Forms of Unity. All were conservative and all held to what the Presbyterians would call a "strict subscription" view of confessional integrity. There is simply no way that all four of their views on the covenant and the nature of baptism and the nature of church membership could all be right, but I think it's accurate to say that all four of their views are within the bounds of the confessions to which they subscribed. Other examples could be cited and I'm pointing out those four simply because each of them held views that have been litigated in the broader assemblies and led to serious denominational divisions.

That doesn't mean I agree with them all -- I have a decades-long history of fighting against presumptive regeneration and view it as a dangerous error. I love Kuyper's views on sphere sovereignty and political engagement, but not his views on the covenant and church membership. Because of my views, I was regularly accused back in Grand Rapids by advocates of Kuyper's position of being a "quasi-Baptist" (which would be news to real Baptists!), or accused of being a "neo-Puritan" because I believe in the necessity of a regenerate church membership. I plead guilty, and gladly so, to the accusation of being in the line of Puritan theology.

I do not think it is unfair to say that the early Federal Visionists largely developed their views from the positions of Norman Shepherd. There were real debates in the 1980s over whether Norman Shepherd was within the bounds of Dutch Reformed theology but outside the bounds of the Westminster Standards, but those debates were short-circuited by Shepherd taking a call to the Christian Reformed Church where he was regarded, correctly so, as being on the conservative end of the denomination so his views were no longer being examined. Conversely, his decision to join the CRC put his views under suspicion because he was perceived, perhaps unfairly, as being a fugitive from discipline based on the circumstances of his leaving the OPC following his problems at Westminster Seminary.

Whatever we think of the modern Federal Visionists and Doug Wilson and the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches and CREC-adjacent groups, they can't be accused, as Norman Shepherd was, of being compromisers who showed their true colors by being willing to join the CRC despite its problems. The CREC people are anything but compromisers with the theological latitudinarianism of today's CRC.

So the question remains -- the CREC people can claim, and a number have claimed, that their views are within the boundaries of the historic Reformed tradition. Are they right or wrong?

I think it's now beyond dispute that the Federal Vision, and especially some of its outworkings such as paedocommunion (yes, I know they're not the same, but they're related) are outside the bounds of the Westminster Standards and require an exception if they are going to be held by a minister or elder in the OPC or PCA, and that gets into the further issue of strict subscription versus "good faith" subscription and whether someone can teach an exception once it's been allowed by his session or presbytery.

So if the Federal Vision is to be viewed as allowable at all, it's necessary to appeal to covenantal debates in Dutch Reformed circles.

Much depends on how one views a number of historic debates in the Dutch Reformed world over the nature of the covenant. For many years I believed the Federal Visionists were "within the ballpark" of the Three Forms of Unity -- not that I agreed with them, but that they were teaching something not unlike what a number of people in previous generations of the Dutch Reformed world had taught, and therefore we need to be very careful not to rule something out as contrary to the confessions apart from official synodical decisions interpreting the confessions.

Those synodical decisions have now been made. The URC and OPC reports are, I think, the most helpful of the various NAPARC decisions. Their official authority is, of course, limited to their own denomination, but people in other Reformed bodies should study them.

My own position is that if I see a CREC member who likes Doug Wilson's views on Christian education and politics, I'll say, "Hey, that's great. We probably agree about 95 percent on those two issues. But let's have a serious talk about what you believe about baptism and personal conversion and the need for a regenerate church membership."

I'm happy to work with lots of people who are within the general camp of being Reformed even if I disagree on some things. Good grief, I live in the Ozarks where supporting infant baptism makes me an extreme outlier and 95 percent of evangelicals here think I'm nuts to support baptizing babies. At the same time, I have spent well over a decade and a half publicly criticizing people in the conservative Reformed world who say "Reformed Baptist" is a contradiction in terms -- I think the American evangelical world would be much better if we had more Al Mohlers and more Charles Spurgeons.

Likewise, there are a lot worse things out there in the American church than a CREC member who wants to be confessionally Reformed.

People need to be dealt with as individuals. Not everyone agrees with everything just because they are a member of a church that's known for certain theological views.

But if someone believes their children can become communicant church members without making a detailed profession of faith showing their knowledge of Reformed doctrine and their own personal conversion -- and note that I'm disagreeing with the common American Presbyterian view of church membership, not just with the Federal Vision approach -- we're going to have some issues.

I'll fight on the need for personal conversion, and I think I'm right to do so. And that made me very unpopular in some Dutch Reformed circles in Grand Rapids with people who told me I ought to "go South to the Bible Belt and deal with the Baptists. You belong with their kind." I'm no Baptist, but if someone denies the need for personal conversion, I'm inclined to say they're no Christian.

And yes, I'm well aware that there are people who identify as conservative Calvinists who won't like that statement. I trust it's okay on the Puritan Board to advocate the historic Puritan position on the need to be personally converted. Head knowledge without heart knowledge is not enough, and that's the core of the issue on which the Puritans fought.
 
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Anna
Independent Reformed Church (Evangelical Association of Reformed & Congregational Christian Churches)

Just noticed your signature line, Anna.

Nice to see more Congregationalists here. FYI, I was a member of the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference for most of my adult life, and had been a lifelong Congregationalist before joining the 4Cs, before I moved to an area with no evangelical Congregational churches of any type and almost no Reformed churches.

For those who don't know, the Evangelical Association was started by people who were more from the German Reformed wing of the 1957 merger of the General Council of Congregational Christian Churches and the General Synod of the Evangelical and Reformed Church that led to the creation of the United Church of Christ. The 4Cs and EA are similar in many ways but trace their origins to different groups of people who decided, correctly, that the UCC merger was a major mistake, and wanted to recover their heritage after leaving the UCC.
 
Yes, it is crude and immodest to say that we derive the man-woman/husband-wife paradigm, from which we are to live out a distinctively Christian anthropology that proclaims Christ to the world, from our sexual organs. Am I alone in being unsettled in seeing the denial of an analogy between the triune God who made us like himself, one mankind, male and female, in procession and embrace, in order to set forth in its place an analogy between ourselves and our reproductive organs? Your natural theology is precisely the teaching of Doug Wilson, yet his (im)modesty does not prevent him from spelling it out in the crudest of terms. The heart of Doug Wilson's project is dominionism; he wants to "conquer" and "colonize" the world, and to this end he enlists the sacred and mysterious act of marriage.

No, by "crude" I meant having to state the obvious with regard to what sexual organs were intended to do. My modesty does not allow me to describe sexual actions in public. But this is the very thing you need to understand. Your "distinctively Christian anthropology" is unnatural, and for that reason it is not Christian. 1 Cor. 6:19-29, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." Dominion is God's design, not Doug Wilson's.
 
Have you been to a mainline church recently? There is no one under retirement age.

I can't speak for Peru, but in my Ozark community in the Bible Belt, there are some fairly large mainline churches, and I don't mean evangelical churches in the mainline denominations (that's a different issue) but rather old traditional "big steeple First Church" types. Why do they get members? They function as the back door for Baptist churches or conservative independent nondenominational churches. When people get ticked off at a church that is "too conservative" they go to the local Methodist church, or whatever. Also, there are still situations in which people join certain churches because the important community leaders are members there. More commonly in the South, that's a "big steeple" First Baptist Church, but sometimes other denominations have an older church that's been around forever and is full of well-off people who are important community leaders.

I get your point, however. We purchased a Methodist church building dating back to the late 1800s when it closed in 2023. I know the people who were their last members. Most were older and retired with one younger family with children, and several had been important community leaders with deep family ties dating back decades or even to the 1800s in some cases.

I just looked up the closest Congregational church to me, which is about 30 minutes away in another county, and according to their denominational report, they have 12 active members left in a church that is over 150 years old. I was surprised that know their pastor, who is a layman and a business owner with no formal theological education and as far as I know never went to college. Looks like the church is following the typical model for rural Baptists of calling an untrained layman. It may work out for them and could be better than the typical graduate of a Congregational seminary, who they wouldn't be able to pay for anyway. Their previous pastor was a professor at a university who drove quite a long way to preach for them each Sunday, and their current pastor could be an improvement. He lives in the area, knows the community, and as far as I know he's broadly evangelical though not particularly strict or conservative.

That's not too unusual in small rural mainline churches that can't pay a pastor and therefore will call whoever they can get, and that person may actually want to preach from the Bible.
 
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Is patriarchy bad?
Whose definition of it?

Heb. 1:1, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets."

Rom. 9:5, "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

This question is the "elephant in the room" on a lot of Reformed discussions. Definitions do count and words do change their meaning.

"Gay" doesn't mean what it once did and few of us would use the word casually anymore to mean "happy," as my mother would have done in the 1940s and 1950s. That happens also in church circles. In some Roman Catholic circles outside the United States, the term "presbytery" means the house where a group of priests live, i.e., a parsonage, and distinguish it from a "monastery" because that is a place for monks who are member of a religious order and may or may not be priests, while a "presbytery" is where priests live who are, in most cases, serving as pastors of a local parish and are not members of a religious order. Catholics don't usually use the word that way in the United States because they know it will be confusing to people who identify the word with Presbyterianism, and instead use terms like "parsonage" or "rectory."

There are people in American Christianity who are using "patriarchy" as a curse word to attack anything resembling traditional conservative family life, let alone biblical standards for families. Conversely, there are people in some of the most extreme wings of conservative Christianity, some but by no means all of them Reformed, who are using "patriarchy" in ways that promote not only male headship in the home but also home churching and an elevation of the authority of fathers above church eldership.

There are plenty of people who are unaware of the way the word is being misused, or only dimly aware of it, and say things like this: "Abraham was a patriarch, so of course we believe patriarchy is biblical," without realizing there are people who say the same phrase but mean by it that Abraham, because he was the religious head of his family, the war leader of his family, and the biological father of all later Israelites, should be a model in all or most ways for modern Christian fathers. I would not be surprised if 95 percent of the people who make comments like that don't realize some of the same things are being said by people who promote "sovereign citizen" movements of people gathering guns in some remote rural homestead to fight off the "godless soldiers who may come to take away our kids," and who if they have any relationship with any church at all, are basically a group of "home churchers" who elevate fatherhood above eldership.

The people on the right who use "patriarchy" that way are a tiny minority. I know that, and most Reformed people, because of our high view of the institutional church, of office, and of ordination, ignore them. It's more of a problem in Baptist circles than Reformed circles. But as the homeschooling movement has grown in Reformed circles -- and I am absolutely **NOT** opposed to homeschooling and view it as a legitimate choice some families will make, though it was not my choice and we used a local Christian school run by an IFB church and pastor who is sympathetic to John MacArthur and views Reformed people as brothers who disagree, not as enemies -- some of the extreme stuff in the farthest right wing of the homesteading and homeschooling community has seeped into Reformed circles.

Milder forms exist. Three decades ago, before I was aware of the issues, I was contacted by a conservative Reformed church whose communion practice was to hand the elements to the father of each family and the father would decide whether his wife and children had behaved appropriately and were entitled to receive communion. I knew there was something wrong with that, but as I said, I didn't yet understand the issues and was confused by what appeared to be a conservative Reformed church that had adopted that method of fencing the table rather than having open communion or elder-supervised communion. That church had adopted their practice in an attempt to become more Reformed than their earlier practice of open communion, and I'd never seen it before so didn't understand how to respond, other than that I had a sense something was wrong. It was only much later that I realized they had adopted some (not by any means all) of the teachings of the "patriarchy" movement that has the effect of elevating fatherhood above eldership.

The proper Reformed response is to use Abraham Kuyper's distinction between the three spheres of the family, the church, and the civil magistrate. Abraham had all three roles, and Moses was both a civil and religious ruler, but ever since the replacement of the judges by the kings of Israel, there has been a distinction between the role of the civil magistrate who cannot (for example) offer sacrifices as King Saul presumed to do, and the religious leadership of God's people. Likewise, while ruling one's own household well is a requirement for the eldership, determining qualifications for communion belongs to the eldership, not to individual fathers, and there are good reasons why a father who is an elder SHOULD defer to his brother elders if there are questions about whether his son or daughter is ready to make profession of faith. Contra the teaching of some in the "Patriarchy" movement, Abraham is not our model. The model for the organization of the New Testament church is found in I Timothy and Titus, as well as other related passages which (among other things) show the need for a plurality of elders in the local church and that the episkopos (bishop) and presbuteros (elder) are the same office, so the pastor should be first among equals on a session, consistory, or board of elders. Elders run the church, and while fathers head their home, they are accountable to the church elders on church matters.

Where things get messy is that a tiny minority that most Reformed people consider irrelevant, and mostly exists outside Reformed circles, is being used as a cudgel by true liberals and radical feminists to attack "normal" views in conservative Reformed circles of male headship in the home. I guess the idea is that if someone teaches that men are supposed to head their homes, they're secretly gathering guns in their basement to plot a violent revolution.

It sounds crazy, until we realize that "crazy" really does exist.

I live in the Ozarks. I've seen the damage caused by extreme teaching in house churches and a view of Christian education that goes way beyond anything Doug Wilson teaches. Put bluntly, local law enforcement tell me there are places where they will not go without full body armor and rifles not just in the trunk of their patrol car but ready for use on their front seat, and with a SWAT team ready for backup. I'm no fan of the abuse being done by "Child Protective Services" in some liberal states, but around here, likely examples of abusive homes are being avoided because most of our law enforcement and government officials are conservatives who support family choice and don't want to set off a "Ruby Ridge" scenario with false accusations against a homeschooling and homechurching father in the patriarchy movement unless they have absolutely crystal clear evidence of sexual or physical violence by a father against his family in their off-the-grid homesteading compound out in the woods.

Here in the Ozarks, and in a lot of rural communities, there's a long history of "live and let live" with various right-wing fundamentalist groups being told, quite correctly so, that the civil government won't bother them and they can do what they want. Almost nobody today wants the nightmares that happened when I was a young man and saw homeschoolers fearing truancy officers would raid their homes and take away their kids.

But as Reformed people, we can't ignore the fact that there are people on the fringes of Reformed Christianity, most but not all of them outside what most of us would consider to be confessionally Reformed church life, who are using "Patriarchy" as a model for something which Reformed churches haven't usually had to deal with.

Just as I was confused three decades ago by a Reformed church that was handing decisions on communion qualifications to the fathers of the congregation, there are Reformed people in traditional Reformed circles who are facing things that most of us have never had to deal with before, but which have been going on for a long time in American fundamentalist circles.

Trust me on this -- I am not an enemy of fundamentalists any more than Machen was. I want to see fundamental Baptists become Reformed. (And yes, I'm happy if they become Reformed Baptists -- I support infant baptism but view Mohler, Spurgeon, Bunyan, etc., as brothers in the Reformed faith.)

But as we see more and more people brought into Reformed circles by the "New Calvinist" and "YRR" movement, we're going to have to deal with people who have very different views of the relationship between family, church and state than most Reformed people have had.

We need to know how to respond to those for whom "Patriarchy" means something quite different from how traditional Reformed people may use that word.
 
@darrellmaurina - There is a reason why we started to auto-close threads and you are evidencing it in a live thread.

This thread is quite old, and grabbing a comment from the beginning has the effect of resetting or backtracking the conversation and its flow. It's not "illegal," butit interrupts flow or resurrects dead controversies. You've done it a few times on this thread, and I would encourage you to start a new thread if there is a topic you want to take up or, rather, read through the thread in its entirety to see if what you want to say has already been exchanged.
 
@darrellmaurina - There is a reason why we started to auto-close threads and you are evidencing it in a live thread.

This thread is quite old, and grabbing a comment from the beginning has the effect of resetting or backtracking the conversation and its flow. It's not "illegal," butit interrupts flow or resurrects dead controversies. You've done it a few times on this thread, and I would encourage you to start a new thread if there is a topic you want to take up or, rather, read through the thread in its entirety to see if what you want to say has already been exchanged.


Fair enough. Here's what's going on.

Dr. R.S. Clark over on the Heidelblog alerted me to the Sons of Patriarchy videos, on which @Guido's Brother is one of the people participating, and Guido, i.e., Dr. Wes Bredenhof, posted the video link here, and then a lot of discussion started about the videos and their subject.

I have a long history of interacting with Dr. Clark and my views have changed over the years with regard to him. I think the comment made by someone else higher up that he's not liberal but keeps company with people who have problems is a fair statement. The comment I made to Logan (@Pomopu ) that he should look more closely at his own URC tradition of Kuyperianism is one I'd make to Dr. Clark. But just because I disagree with someone on "Two Kingdoms" theology doesn't mean they don't have a point on other issues. The URC and OPC and other NAPARC denominations have taken strong stances against the Federal Vision and I'm interested in what confessionally Reformed people have to say about Doug Wilson, CREC, and its practical outworkings in Moscow, Idaho.

It is entirely possible this whole thing is going to be put under a national media microscope if President Trump goes ahead with his plans to nominate Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense. I want to know everything I possibly can about the people who are criticizing Moscow because those criticisms may very well become "talking points" in the Senate confirmation hearings.

I have spent a lot of time over the holiday weekend doing research on the things in that video series and became aware of this thread. It's taken me several days to read through all the comments and I've been responding item-by-item as I see things.

If I'd seen this thread earlier, I would likely have been active in the discussion from the point it started.

Full disclosure: I started out back in the early 1990s really liking Doug Wilson's project in Idaho when he was mostly known for his views on classical Christian education and recovering the lost tools of learning. I defended him for a long time though it became clear to me about twenty years ago that we were not on the same page about some important issues and that he was tolerating things I consider to be beyond the pale. For those who ask, two in particular: neo-Confederate racist stuff and paedocommunion, which is an outgrowth of presumptive regeneration, a doctrine I've been arguing against for nearly forty years. Note carefully that I am NOT accusing Doug Wilson of those views, but of tolerating them. There is an important difference between saying someone does bad things and saying someone runs in a bad crowd.

However, once the NAPARC denominations started to produce reports on the theological problems of the Federal Vision, I backed off. I never did agree with the Federal Vision, but I no longer believe it is an error though within the boundaries of the Reformed confessions, as I once did. I have deferred to the judgment of multiple assemblies of the Reformed church world that it is not just a tolerable error but actually violates the confessions. The judgment of fathers and brothers in denominations that understand the confessions very well, and their histories and what they were written to oppose and how they have been interpreted over the centuries, should carry great weight and I should respect their judgments.

Sadly, this is not just an in-house disagreement anymore between Reformed brothers.

I believe this situation with Doug Wilson and Christian nationalism and what is happening at Moscow has a high probability of exploding into national view within the next few weeks to months, and I believe those of us in the Reformed world need to be ready to respond. Threads like this which discuss Wilson's critics are valuable for that reason.

I'd encourage you to let the discussion continue, but it's your call and I respect that.
 
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Fair enough. Here's what's going on.

Dr. R.S. Clark over on the Heidelblog alerted me to the Sons of Patriarchy videos, on which @Guido's Brother is one of the people participating, and Guido, i.e., Dr. Wes Bredenhof, posted the video link here, and then a lot of discussion started about the videos and their subject.

I have a long history of interacting with Dr. Clark and my views have changed over the years with regard to him. I think the comment made by someone else higher up that he's not liberal but keeps company with people who have problems is a fair statement. The comment I made to Logan (@Pomopu ) that he should look more closely at his own URC tradition of Kuyperianism is one I'd make to Dr. Clark. But just because I disagree with someone on "Two Kingdoms" theology doesn't mean they don't have a point on other issues. The URC and OPC and other NAPARC denominations have taken strong stances against the Federal Vision and I'm interested in what confessionally Reformed people have to say about Doug Wilson, CREC, and its practical outworkings in Moscow, Idaho.

It is entirely possible this whole thing is going to be put under a national media microscope if President Trump goes ahead with his plans to nominate Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense. I want to know everything I possibly can about the people who are criticizing Moscow because those criticisms may very well become "talking points" in the Senate confirmation hearings.

I have spent a lot of time over the holiday weekend doing research on the things in that video series and became aware of this thread. It's taken me several days to read through all the comments and I've been responding item-by-item as I see things.

If I'd seen this thread earlier, I would likely have been active in the discussion from the point it started.

Full disclosure: I started out back in the early 1990s really liking Doug Wilson's project in Idaho when he was mostly known for his views on classical Christian education and recovering the lost tools of learning. I defended him for a long time though it became clear to me about twenty years ago that we were not on the same page about some important issues and that he was tolerating things I consider to be beyond the pale. For those who ask, two in particular: neo-Confederate racist stuff and paedocommunion, which is an outgrowth of presumptive regeneration, a doctrine I've been arguing against for nearly forty years. Note carefully that I am NOT accusing Doug Wilson of those views, but of tolerating them. There is an important difference between saying someone does bad things and saying someone runs in a bad crowd.

However, once the NAPARC denominations started to produce reports on the theological problems of the Federal Vision, I backed off. I never did agree with the Federal Vision, but I no longer believe it is an error though within the boundaries of the Reformed confessions, as I once did. I have deferred to the judgment of multiple assemblies of the Reformed church world that it is not just a tolerable error but actually violates the confessions. The judgment of fathers and brothers in denominations that understand the confessions very well, and their histories and what they were written to oppose and how they have been interpreted over the centuries, should carry great weight and I should respect their judgments.

Sadly, this is not just an in-house disagreement anymore between Reformed brothers.

I believe this situation with Doug Wilson and Christian nationalism and what is happening at Moscow has a high probability of exploding into national view within the next few weeks to months, and I believe those of us in the Reformed world need to be ready to respond. Threads like this which discuss Wilson's critics are valuable for that reason.

I'd encourage you to let the discussion continue, but it's your call and I respect that.
I wasn't cutting off the conversation; I was urging you not to respond to posts on a thread from weeks ago (e.g. your post prior to the one I posted) where you give an answer that has been answered (e.g. is Patriarchy bad). The thread is almost 3 months old and will continue but when you respond to someone's post from 2.5 months ago, it has the effect of "why is someone responding to that particular note right now when others have exhausted that?). It's the same thing about whether or not the URC confesses the original 3FU. That was already talked about on this thread and you resurrected it for no useful purpose.

I'm suggesting that you read a long thread and, before responding, figure out if a line of thought died weeks ago before resurrecting it rather than picking early posts you decide you want to talk about and ignoring what came after.
 
Fair enough. Here's what's going on.

Dr. R.S. Clark over on the Heidelblog alerted me to the Sons of Patriarchy videos, on which @Guido's Brother is one of the people participating, and Guido, i.e., Dr. Wes Bredenhof, posted the video link here, and then a lot of discussion started about the videos and their subject.

I have a long history of interacting with Dr. Clark and my views have changed over the years with regard to him. I think the comment made by someone else higher up that he's not liberal but keeps company with people who have problems is a fair statement. The comment I made to Logan (@Pomopu ) that he should look more closely at his own URC tradition of Kuyperianism is one I'd make to Dr. Clark. But just because I disagree with someone on "Two Kingdoms" theology doesn't mean they don't have a point on other issues. The URC and OPC and other NAPARC denominations have taken strong stances against the Federal Vision and I'm interested in what confessionally Reformed people have to say about Doug Wilson, CREC, and its practical outworkings in Moscow, Idaho.

It is entirely possible this whole thing is going to be put under a national media microscope if President Trump goes ahead with his plans to nominate Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense. I want to know everything I possibly can about the people who are criticizing Moscow because those criticisms may very well become "talking points" in the Senate confirmation hearings.

I have spent a lot of time over the holiday weekend doing research on the things in that video series and became aware of this thread. It's taken me several days to read through all the comments and I've been responding item-by-item as I see things.

If I'd seen this thread earlier, I would likely have been active in the discussion from the point it started.

Full disclosure: I started out back in the early 1990s really liking Doug Wilson's project in Idaho when he was mostly known for his views on classical Christian education and recovering the lost tools of learning. I defended him for a long time though it became clear to me about twenty years ago that we were not on the same page about some important issues and that he was tolerating things I consider to be beyond the pale. For those who ask, two in particular: neo-Confederate racist stuff and paedocommunion, which is an outgrowth of presumptive regeneration, a doctrine I've been arguing against for nearly forty years. Note carefully that I am NOT accusing Doug Wilson of those views, but of tolerating them. There is an important difference between saying someone does bad things and saying someone runs in a bad crowd.

However, once the NAPARC denominations started to produce reports on the theological problems of the Federal Vision, I backed off. I never did agree with the Federal Vision, but I no longer believe it is an error though within the boundaries of the Reformed confessions, as I once did. I have deferred to the judgment of multiple assemblies of the Reformed church world that it is not just a tolerable error but actually violates the confessions. The judgment of fathers and brothers in denominations that understand the confessions very well, and their histories and what they were written to oppose and how they have been interpreted over the centuries, should carry great weight and I should respect their judgments.

Sadly, this is not just an in-house disagreement anymore between Reformed brothers.

I believe this situation with Doug Wilson and Christian nationalism and what is happening at Moscow has a high probability of exploding into national view within the next few weeks to months, and I believe those of us in the Reformed world need to be ready to respond. Threads like this which discuss Wilson's critics are valuable for that reason.

I'd encourage you to let the discussion continue, but it's your call and I respect that.
At the heart of this matter is Douglas Wilson's understanding of himself, his authority, and his power fed by nostalgia for certain periods of American history. Please understand that Douglas Wilson read Rushdoony and was enticed by reconstructionism before he read Calvin and became Reformed. By his own admission, dominion is the fountain and epicenter of his thought. For Wilson, patriarchs simply are those who take dominion over thier nieghbors. . . over their wives, over their children, over church governments, and over society and culture. Wilson reads this up into the relations of the trinity ad intra from which come the divine missions: "We do not call Him 'Father' because we have projected out notions of fatherhood up into the heavens. Rather, a dim reflection of his (the first person of the trinity) masculinity has been projected, among other places, onto human maleness" (For Glory, 41). A husband subjugating his wife to his authority is in line with how God made him because the Father relates this way within the trinity. At this point, he has fallen into tritheism and is at odds with the creeds, namely that the divine mind and will are part of the simple, singular essence. The missions proceed from the one decree of the one God, not the persons. This simply is good Calvinism. Calvin banished the last remnants of subordinationism within the Trinity with his doctrine of autheos. IN other words, Calvin dismissed the last grounds for a patriarchal trinity by saying Aquinas' conception of the Father as the fountain of deity (the divine essence) is wrong. The divine essence is not what is passed down from Father to Son, and from Father and Son to Spirit. The three simply exist individually as the entire divine essence without remainder or residue. That includes the divine intellect and will from which proceed the divine decree and their missions in space and time. Not so with Wilson. For Wilson, the Father IS the patriarch, pure masculinity and authority, contrasted with the Son, because the Father is never said to submit to the Son. For Wilson, "Being masculine involves authority, rule, and the right to make decisions that affect others" (41). Wilson and his followers want this over me . . . and over you, to the extent that you disagree with him.
 
At the heart of this matter is Douglas Wilson's understanding of himself, his authority, and his power fed by nostalgia for certain periods of American history. Please understand that Douglas Wilson read Rushdoony and was enticed by reconstructionism before he read Calvin and became Reformed. By his own admission, dominion is the fountain and epicenter of his thought. For Wilson, patriarchs simply are those who take dominion over thier nieghbors. . . over their wives, over their children, over church governments, and over society and culture. Wilson reads this up into the relations of the trinity ad intra from which come the divine missions: "We do not call Him 'Father' because we have projected out notions of fatherhood up into the heavens. Rather, a dim reflection of his (the first person of the trinity) masculinity has been projected, among other places, onto human maleness" (For Glory, 41). A husband subjugating his wife to his authority is in line with how God made him because the Father relates this way within the trinity. At this point, he has fallen into tritheism and is at odds with the creeds, namely that the divine mind and will are part of the simple, singular essence. The missions proceed from the one decree of the one God, not the persons. This simply is good Calvinism. Calvin banished the last remnants of subordinationism within the Trinity with his doctrine of autheos. IN other words, Calvin dismissed the last grounds for a patriarchal trinity by saying Aquinas' conception of the Father as the fountain of deity (the divine essence) is wrong. The divine essence is not what is passed down from Father to Son, and from Father and Son to Spirit. The three simply exist individually as the entire divine essence without remainder or residue. That includes the divine intellect and will from which proceed the divine decree and their missions in space and time. Not so with Wilson. For Wilson, the Father IS the patriarch, pure masculinity and authority, contrasted with the Son, because the Father is never said to submit to the Son. For Wilson, "Being masculine involves authority, rule, and the right to make decisions that affect others" (41). Wilson and his followers want this over me . . . and over you, to the extent that you disagree with him.
We need to ask ourselves: Did God ever mandate our taking dominion of the world, beginning with our neighbor, after the Fall? Did Christ subjugate his neighbor when he came? Or did our meek and lowly Savior not rather appeal to his followers, saying, "Come unto me . . .and I will give you rest." This is another sad turn for Doug Wilson. He patterns his headship not after the Christ who came to seek and save the lost, biding their wounds, washing their feet, laying down his life for the sheep (Eph. 5), but after the headship of Christ in Ephesians 1, the risen and reigning Christ, who subdues all things under himself (See For A Glory, 58-59). If you oppose him, be assured that he and his followers would consider you part of the "all things under his feet." They would seek to be your head and subdue you.
 
At the heart of this matter is Douglas Wilson's understanding of himself, his authority, and his power fed by nostalgia for certain periods of American history. Please understand that Douglas Wilson read Rushdoony and was enticed by reconstructionism before he read Calvin and became Reformed. By his own admission, dominion is the fountain and epicenter of his thought. For Wilson, patriarchs simply are those who take dominion over thier nieghbors. . . over their wives, over their children, over church governments, and over society and culture. Wilson reads this up into the relations of the trinity ad intra from which come the divine missions: "We do not call Him 'Father' because we have projected out notions of fatherhood up into the heavens. Rather, a dim reflection of his (the first person of the trinity) masculinity has been projected, among other places, onto human maleness" (For Glory, 41). A husband subjugating his wife to his authority is in line with how God made him because the Father relates this way within the trinity. At this point, he has fallen into tritheism and is at odds with the creeds, namely that the divine mind and will are part of the simple, singular essence. The missions proceed from the one decree of the one God, not the persons. This simply is good Calvinism. Calvin banished the last remnants of subordinationism within the Trinity with his doctrine of autheos. IN other words, Calvin dismissed the last grounds for a patriarchal trinity by saying Aquinas' conception of the Father as the fountain of deity (the divine essence) is wrong. The divine essence is not what is passed down from Father to Son, and from Father and Son to Spirit. The three simply exist individually as the entire divine essence without remainder or residue. That includes the divine intellect and will from which proceed the divine decree and their missions in space and time. Not so with Wilson. For Wilson, the Father IS the patriarch, pure masculinity and authority, contrasted with the Son, because the Father is never said to submit to the Son. For Wilson, "Being masculine involves authority, rule, and the right to make decisions that affect others" (41). Wilson and his followers want this over me . . . and over you, to the extent that you disagree with him.
I'm never going to defend DW's overall theology but your use of theology in your sources is a form of historical vandalism.

As I've stated previously, your theological method is of the same species as other errantists. I know you believe you've done the theological work to make your claims, but they are all novel claims. Calvin's view of the Son as auto-Theos die not rescue Christianity from subordinationism. What is fascinating is that you read the sources and have the facility to use them as you formulate an idea, but then you abuse the same source you use. It is sufficient for you to borrow an idea from some theologian and then take it in a direction they know better to take it, even as you claim that the idea is from the source itself. Your use of Van Til, Bavinck, Vos, Calvin, and Tipton all evidence this tendency. At least in your paper, you acknowledge that the other writers never "go" where you are taking an idea, but you don't seem to understand why they would never go in a certain direction.

Your theological project where you believe that anything confessed about the Trinity can be analogized to men and women is not going to rescue the Church from its errors as you conceive them. Your ideas will remain novel and popular among those who don't understand the dangerous ground you are standing upon, but they will remain novel. Anyone who has a moderate facility for studying the development of the Trinity or the theologians you quote will immediately see how dangerous your project is.

I asked you to stop pursuing this errant line of theology, but it appears you are its fountainhead, and you are only here to proselytize.
 
I'm suggesting that you read a long thread and, before responding, figure out if a line of thought died weeks ago before resurrecting it rather than picking early posts you decide you want to talk about and ignoring what came after.

Fair point. I skimmed the whole thread (some would call it less "skimming" and more "reading, taking notes, but not analyzing in detail") and then went back and over a number of days responded to items I thought hadn't been addressed. I'd actually cite the Three Forms of Unity issue, which you mention, as an example of something I did deliberately after reading the thread.

Things which are settled issues for American Presbyterians, and have been since the 1700s, were only addressed relatively recently in Dutch Reformed history and some of the "Pillars of the Church," such as Kuyper and Kersten, were involved in controversies of the late 1800s and early 1900s that continue to be underlying issues today.

@Pomopu said he wasn't aware of the idolatry debate in the revision of the Belgic Confession. I'm surprised but probably shouldn't be, considering how poorly Calvin College and Calvin Seminary have been teaching Dutch Reformed ecclesiastical and confessional history for several generations now. A lot of conservative ministers and elders, even those who led secessions out of the CRC, don't know things which used to be widespread knowledge in the Dutch Reformed world because, quite frankly, there were far worse problems to deal with. If the main fights are over things like homosexual ordination and biblical inerrancy, it's kind of irrelevant to debate banning false worship in other people's churches.

This issue of which version of the Belgic Confession applies in the URC came up quite recently in the context of how to deal with the Two Kingdoms theology coming out of Westminster-West, so I thought it was valuable to point out that which version of the confession applies (and there are several, not just two) is not a dead issue for the history books.

Hope that explanation helps. Yes, I did pay attention to the whole thread before commenting. I wish I'd seen it earlier and had commented earlier -- and perhaps that would have avoided Pompou saying some infelicitous things.

You've got a valid point, though, about resurrecting dead discussions without reason. In this case I thought there was a good reason, and given debates on other threads on how we should view Roman Catholics, I think it's still a live issue in the Reformed world.

I'll try to keep up and not drag dead bodies out of graves. They don't smell good. ;-)
 
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