Sons of Patriarchy

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We probably just hang around different circles. I have witnessed far more people in my life, (including myself for almost all my early life,) go on with life and indulge in anything they like without a care to its witness or offense to God; as almost they were oblivious to what the Bible says. I have rarely, if ever ran across someone who is stressed out about not doing enough to earn their salvation. I know there are some religions that this is their pattern, but I am mainly talking within the American Protestant arena. The popular mantra seems to be "once you believe you are in, and once you are in you are never out." This seems to give so many people false-security. Am I wrong here?
It’s certainly a possibility that it’s a matter of circles. I started off in the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement, which is heavily legalistic, and I’ve largely moved in conservative Christian circles.

“Once saved, always saved” is an overly simplistic mantra that certainly is dangerous. The doctrine of the perseverance/preservation of the saints is the corrective.
 
It’s certainly a possibility that it’s a matter of circles. I started off in the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement, which is heavily legalistic, and I’ve largely moved in conservative Christian circles.

“Once saved, always saved” is an overly simplistic mantra that certainly is dangerous. The doctrine of the perseverance/preservation of the saints is the corrective.
Sounds like we came from different circles. I can see what you mean with the IFB. My background is from non-denom mega churches, hence why we see the issue differently most likely.
 
Because as many people as there are who are “carnal” there are just as many who think their status before God is based upon their doing. That maintaining their status before God is done by doing. This reality is what produced The Marrow Controversy
It’s the same reality we’re in now with the “stay in by covenantal faithfulness” teaching we find in FV. And we’re just beginning to see that the Marrow Controversy was the clash of different federal streams against each other. It’s the same today, with Wilson and his objective covenant on one side, and us on the other. I think the distinctive federal theology of the Marrow Men and Seceders is the best remedy.
 
Antinomianism and legalism always feed each other in a vicious negative spiral. Antinomista (to use the Marrow personalities) says, "The law doesn't bind me, and therefore I can do what I want." Nomista says, "But look at where that leads you. At least I don't have YOUR problems! I'm much closer to heaven than you are!" To which Antinomista says, "You're just too straight-laced and have no grace in your heart." And so, on and on. You're nearly always going to find the other where you find one of them, because that is simply how human nature responds. Only the full gospel with defined, distinguished, and inseparable benefits located in Christ Himself will answer or curtail the negative spiral. I have seen plenty Antinomistas and Nomistas, in about equal measure.

Antinomianism was one of the main boogeymen of the Westminster Assembly. I am so thankful that the Assembly's response goes back to solid gospel bedrock instead of trying to balance out the rejection of the law solely with law-preaching. So many legalists think that the answer to antinomianism is law. The reject the law. Therefore we should emphasize law (even at the expense of gospel!). The answer to antinomianism is the gospel of justification AND sanctification in Jesus Christ (and yes, the law plays a very important role in showing us our need of Christ, and way we must walk as Christians in sanctification). The full-orbed gospel of forgiveness AND renovation is the gospel answer.

Legalism is harder to spot, because it is less obvious, and there are many more forms of it. People tend to think of legalism as less prevalent. I think that is mostly because of its hiddenness. Legalism is the person saying, "I'm ok because I go to church and serve people there." They are the people who rightly think works are necessary to salvation (defined broadly as including all the benefits of salvation), but fail to realize that the works are only necessary in a posterior and resultative way (like the sound of a cannon is necessary to the explosion of a cannonball being fired, my favorite illustration: anyone ever heard of a cannon silencer?? The sound obviously does not cause the cannon to go off, but is instead the necessary, posterior, and resultative effect of the explosion), not an antecedent and causative way. Thus says Turretin, basically.

Here are some variants of legalism that are quite pernicious, but much more sly than crass works salvation. 1. Man-made church rules are just as important (de facto) as God's law. 2. What I do as a Christian keeps me in the fold and ok. 3. Sin proves that a person is not a Christian. 4. Grace shouldn't be shown to people who have blown it. 5. We need to "flesh out" the law of God to address every possible specific situation, and the fleshing out is the same thing as God's law. 6. My experience with God's law is determinative for everyone else. I think if we start to think more thoroughly about legalism, we will realize that it is just as prevalent as antinomianism.

One last point to make: legalism and antinomianism, ironically, both devalue God's law. Legalism believes that the law is keepable for fallen humans (thus diminishing its requirements), while antinomianism believes keeping the law is irrelevant. They are both opposed to the gospel, and are equally pernicious.
 
Following on Lane’s observations, I see legalism and antinomianism engaged in a mutual dance. Almost always the antinomian says to himself, “at least I’m not as bad as him.”

He applies a legal standard just the same as a legalist. Both have implicit faith that God grades on a curve.
 
Legalism believes that the law is keepable for fallen humans (thus diminishing its requirements)
I think this point is especially important for understanding the prevalence of legalism. And I think it also indicates that legalism and antinomianism may even be able to coexist in the same heart. So many people believe that the basis of their entrance to heaven will be whether or not they lived a "good life." But at the same time, they're not all that interested in strenuous efforts to keep God's law. And so they so diminish the requirements of God's law that you almost have to be an absolute, undeniable scoundrel to fail to meet the standard. And perhaps they've heard enough about God's love, grace, and forgiveness, that even though they know there's plenty in their lives that is out of accord with God's law, they don't think it matters because in their eyes they at least stay away from the worst stuff. And then, they attach some measure of merit to their occasional acts of piety that helps to make up for their failings. So put all that together and you have someone with the soteriology of a legalist, and the morality of an antinomian--quite a terrifying combination, and we see its destructive effects everywhere.

That mix is so common these days that I'm not sure it's helpful to discuss whether legalism or antinomianism is more prevalent. Both are everywhere. Both are deadly to the soul. And the true gospel is the antidote to both.
 
One last point to make: legalism and antinomianism, ironically, both devalue God's law. Legalism believes that the law is keepable for fallen humans (thus diminishing its requirements), while antinomianism believes keeping the law is irrelevant. They are both opposed to the gospel, and are equally pernicious.
I’m continually reminded of this J.H. Thornwell quote:

“The natural vibration of the mind is from the extreme of legalism to that of licentiousness, and nothing but the grace of God can fix it in the proper medium of Divine truth. The Gospel, like its blessed Master, is always crucified between two thieves—legalists of all sorts on the one hand and Antinomians on the other; the former robbing the Saviour of the glory of his work for us, and the other robbing him of the glory of his work within us.”
 
I think this issue is where Ferguson was so helpful in his The Whole Christ.

On Legalism (page 83):
Geerhardus Vos well expresses this in another context:

"Legalism is a peculiar kind of submission to God’s law, something that no longer feels the personal divine touch in the rule it submits to."

Legalism is simply separating the law of God from the person of God.

On Antinomianism (page 154):
At one level the problem is indeed rejection of God’s law. But underneath lies a failure to understand grace and ultimately to understand God. True, his love for me is not based on my qualification or my preparation. But it is misleading to say that God accepts us the way we are. Rather he accepts us despite the way we are. He receives us only in Christ and for Christ’s sake. Nor does he mean to leave us the way he found us, but to transform us into the likeness of his Son. Without that transformation and new conformity of life we do not have any evidence that we were ever his in the first place.

At root then antinomianism separates God’s law from God’s person, and grace from the union with Christ in which the law is written in the heart.

On the antidote (page 156):
...antinomianism and legalism are not so much antithetical to each other as they are both antithetical to grace. This is why Scripture never prescribes one as the antidote for the other. Rather grace, God's grace in Christ in our union with Christ, is the antidote to both.
 
I do think sometimes there are things attributed to Doug Wilson that he doesn't actually believe in, but it is actually Doug Wilson adjacent individuals who are actually more zealous (maybe fanatical) in their views. Doug Wilson should absolutely be called out for his bad theology, especially the federal vision, but he shouldn't be blamed for everything his fan boys do (e.g. Joel Webbon and his dancing with Holocaust denial). I think Wilson's own daughters as mentioned above would serve as an example.
To the degree this is factually present (in any given example), it is a demonstration of the disciple honoring the discipler, in bringing forth the corruption inherent in the fruits they were given.

Antinomianism and legalism always feed each other in a vicious negative spiral. Antinomista (to use the Marrow personalities) says, "The law doesn't bind me, and therefore I can do what I want." Nomista says, "But look at where that leads you. At least I don't have YOUR problems! I'm much closer to heaven than you are!" To which Antinomista says, "You're just too straight-laced and have no grace in your heart." And so, on and on. You're nearly always going to find the other where you find one of them, because that is simply how human nature responds. Only the full gospel with defined, distinguished, and inseparable benefits located in Christ Himself will answer or curtail the negative spiral. I have seen plenty Antinomistas and Nomistas, in about equal measure.

Antinomianism was one of the main boogeymen of the Westminster Assembly. I am so thankful that the Assembly's response goes back to solid gospel bedrock instead of trying to balance out the rejection of the law solely with law-preaching. So many legalists think that the answer to antinomianism is law. The reject the law. Therefore we should emphasize law (even at the expense of gospel!). The answer to antinomianism is the gospel of justification AND sanctification in Jesus Christ (and yes, the law plays a very important role in showing us our need of Christ, and way we must walk as Christians in sanctification). The full-orbed gospel of forgiveness AND renovation is the gospel answer.

Legalism is harder to spot, because it is less obvious, and there are many more forms of it. People tend to think of legalism as less prevalent. I think that is mostly because of its hiddenness. Legalism is the person saying, "I'm ok because I go to church and serve people there." They are the people who rightly think works are necessary to salvation (defined broadly as including all the benefits of salvation), but fail to realize that the works are only necessary in a posterior and resultative way (like the sound of a cannon is necessary to the explosion of a cannonball being fired, my favorite illustration: anyone ever heard of a cannon silencer?? The sound obviously does not cause the cannon to go off, but is instead the necessary, posterior, and resultative effect of the explosion), not an antecedent and causative way. Thus says Turretin, basically.

Here are some variants of legalism that are quite pernicious, but much more sly than crass works salvation. 1. Man-made church rules are just as important (de facto) as God's law. 2. What I do as a Christian keeps me in the fold and ok. 3. Sin proves that a person is not a Christian. 4. Grace shouldn't be shown to people who have blown it. 5. We need to "flesh out" the law of God to address every possible specific situation, and the fleshing out is the same thing as God's law. 6. My experience with God's law is determinative for everyone else. I think if we start to think more thoroughly about legalism, we will realize that it is just as prevalent as antinomianism.

One last point to make: legalism and antinomianism, ironically, both devalue God's law. Legalism believes that the law is keepable for fallen humans (thus diminishing its requirements), while antinomianism believes keeping the law is irrelevant. They are both opposed to the gospel, and are equally pernicious.
One man’s box of legalism, is another’s playground of antinomianism. At the practical level, both can be found in a Xtian: legalism in things which the flesh finds easy to “keep”, antinomianism in everything else.
 
To the degree this is factually present (in any given example), it is a demonstration of the disciple honoring the discipler, in bringing forth the corruption inherent in the fruits they were given.
There is no doubt truth to this statement. I agree this ultimately comes back to Wilson to some degree or another. It also doesn't help that Wilson always speaks in riddles when it comes to responding to criticism. My only point was that if someone listens to him and then becomes even more extreme, they are ultimately the ones guilty of the sin. Now, Wilson SHOULD be coming out and denouncing these individuals and clarifying his own position, but as I mentioned earlier, clarifying does not seem to be something Wilson does in these types of scenarios. He almost always opts for a big tent approach, even if that tent includes multiple wacky jackies.
 
I, personally, think he resolved the issues in the unlinked Twitter thread but I digress...

Seems to me, like with racism, there is a proliferation of 'theological cootism.' *sigh*
 
Is there more than just that tweet? I don't have X and I really don't want to sign up, lol.
He basically said he was falsely introduced as a pastor. Fair enough.

As for the theological cootism, both sides are guilty, especially the more I peruse his Twitter...nuanced critical thinking has died thanks to phones.
 
It seems like there could be someone better to do this series in my opinion. Wilson is trouble, but so are liberals. I would say if you want to learn about the dangers of Wilson, R Scott Clark and Patrick Hines would both be better sources.
 
It seems like there could be someone better to do this series in my opinion. Wilson is trouble, but so are liberals. I would say if you want to learn about the dangers of Wilson, R Scott Clark and Patrick Hines would both be better sources.
Could there be? Sure. Will anyone else do it? Stay tuned.
 
Wilson is trouble, but so are liberals.
No offense but it is this sort of thinking I am talking about. I don't think Bell is a liberal at all, unless of course liberal being a catchphrase for everything that doesn't agree with Moi. I've already come across things that I am skeptical of coming from him too. And as for Clark, I thought the GGG had his blessing. I will have to look into it more but it was always referenced on the Heidelblog.
 
It seems like there could be someone better to do this series in my opinion. Wilson is trouble, but so are liberals. I would say if you want to learn about the dangers of Wilson, R Scott Clark and Patrick Hines would both be better sources.
I'm pretty sure Clark is going to be on the podcast. I am as well.
 
No offense but it is this sort of thinking I am talking about. I don't think Bell is a liberal at all, unless of course liberal being a catchphrase for everything that doesn't agree with Moi. I've already come across things that I am skeptical of coming from him too. And as for Clark, I thought the GGG had his blessing. I will have to look into it more but it was always referenced on the Heidelblog.
The linked article by SolaScriptura calls into question Bell's stance concerning egalitarianism. That's a liberal position. I'm happy to wait and see, however.
 
I will wait and see then. Sorry if I caused offense. That article didn't look great though. As mentioned, egalitarianism is liberalism.
 
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