South African members and churches?

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genevabound

Puritan Board Freshman
I am just curious how many active members are in South Africa? I visited a few years ago and really enjoyed my time there. What is the status of the Reformed churches now? It is kind of hard to get a lot of information, and the threads on the forum are more than a few years old (at least the ones I saw).
 
There are a couple around here. I'll see if I can track them down.

@pgwolv

@Von

I ran across another guy, but he's rarely around. So I'll stop with these two.
 
I am just curious how many active members are in South Africa? I visited a few years ago and really enjoyed my time there. What is the status of the Reformed churches now? It is kind of hard to get a lot of information, and the threads on the forum are more than a few years old (at least the ones I saw).
Here I am! Thanks for tagging me, @Edward.

The status of Reformed churches here is, in my limited experience, rather weak. I grew up in the Dutch Reformed church, one of the main Afrikaans churches with a rich heritage of the immigrant Dutch and Huguenots; however, I rarely heard any reformed teaching, and the Synod has left each congregation to their own devices as to whether a homosexual preacher is allowed in the pulpit. In the early 90s when I grew up, female preachers were already common. So many young people live together outside of marriage, and I never see these churches addressing it, or even seeming to care.

God led me to a Reformed Baptist church. Most people in the congregation had not known what a "Reformed" Baptist church was when they joined here. I am not aware of Reformed Presbyterian churches; a retired Presbyterian pastor is in our church because he could not stand for it when his denomination decided to ordain homosexual presbyters. I am aware of only maybe 10 to 20 Reformed Baptist churches in South Africa; I stand to be corrected.

It is really a sad state of affairs, but I am so heartened by the many new faces we see on a regular basis; we recently confirmed almost 10 people as new members in a congregation of approximately 200 members. Praise the Lord.

Any other questions about things here?
 
Here I am! Thanks for tagging me, @Edward.

The status of Reformed churches here is, in my limited experience, rather weak. I grew up in the Dutch Reformed church, one of the main Afrikaans churches with a rich heritage of the immigrant Dutch and Huguenots; however, I rarely heard any reformed teaching, and the Synod has left each congregation to their own devices as to whether a homosexual preacher is allowed in the pulpit. In the early 90s when I grew up, female preachers were already common. So many young people live together outside of marriage, and I never see these churches addressing it, or even seeming to care.

God led me to a Reformed Baptist church. Most people in the congregation had not known what a "Reformed" Baptist church was when they joined here. I am not aware of Reformed Presbyterian churches; a retired Presbyterian pastor is in our church because he could not stand for it when his denomination decided to ordain homosexual presbyters. I am aware of only maybe 10 to 20 Reformed Baptist churches in South Africa; I stand to be corrected.

It is really a sad state of affairs, but I am so heartened by the many new faces we see on a regular basis; we recently confirmed almost 10 people as new members in a congregation of approximately 200 members. Praise the Lord.

Any other questions about things here?
Thanks for taking the time to write that out! I am saddened to hear of the state of the Dutch Reformed churches, but heartened to hear that your Reformed Baptist church is doing well. How are things socially? When we were there most people were doing well working together, there was some tension in certain parts of the country, but overall it was OK. Since then we hear in the news over here about the issues with land appropriations and such. My wife and I had talked about retiring to the country at some point in the future, but the land questions make one hesitant to look at investing in property.
 
Here I am! Thanks for tagging me, @Edward.

The status of Reformed churches here is, in my limited experience, rather weak. I grew up in the Dutch Reformed church, one of the main Afrikaans churches with a rich heritage of the immigrant Dutch and Huguenots; however, I rarely heard any reformed teaching, and the Synod has left each congregation to their own devices as to whether a homosexual preacher is allowed in the pulpit. In the early 90s when I grew up, female preachers were already common. So many young people live together outside of marriage, and I never see these churches addressing it, or even seeming to care.

God led me to a Reformed Baptist church. Most people in the congregation had not known what a "Reformed" Baptist church was when they joined here. I am not aware of Reformed Presbyterian churches; a retired Presbyterian pastor is in our church because he could not stand for it when his denomination decided to ordain homosexual presbyters. I am aware of only maybe 10 to 20 Reformed Baptist churches in South Africa; I stand to be corrected.

It is really a sad state of affairs, but I am so heartened by the many new faces we see on a regular basis; we recently confirmed almost 10 people as new members in a congregation of approximately 200 members. Praise the Lord.

Any other questions about things here?
Hi PG -- Which denomination are you referring to? The reason I ask is that there are several "Dutch Reformed" denominations in South Africa from what I can tell, including some that have ecumenical relationships with faithful Reformed denominations in North America (with which I am more familiar).

For example, I think this denomination is faithful and does not have the same problems you mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Reformed_Church_in_South_Africa_(NHK)
 
Thanks for taking the time to write that out! I am saddened to hear of the state of the Dutch Reformed churches, but heartened to hear that your Reformed Baptist church is doing well. How are things socially? When we were there most people were doing well working together, there was some tension in certain parts of the country, but overall it was OK. Since then we hear in the news over here about the issues with land appropriations and such. My wife and I had talked about retiring to the country at some point in the future, but the land questions make one hesitant to look at investing in property.
Most people live in peace with each other. The government is really doing a poor job of taking care of the people. Service delivery is non-existent in most rural areas, yet the governing party still got 57% of the vote in 2019. Most people don't want land; they want jobs and food on the table. It is a political game; the government already owns a lot of land and could have done something in the past 27 years to accelerate the wellbeing of those who were previously disadvantaged. Instead, they embraced a brand of affirmative action in which those with connections get all the jobs and money, while the rest remain in poverty. The situation is dire regarding employment, especially among the youth. The official, vastly underestimated figures, are that total unemployment is at 34.4%; it is 44.4% when including those who have given up on job-searching. Among youth, and South Africa is still a young nation, the official rate is 46%, although the rate according to the expanded definition is something like 64%. Humanly speaking, South Africa is overripe for an "African" spring like we saw in the Arab nations. There is much tinder for a revolution, and there are some loud voices trying to kindle a fire.

That being said, praise be to God, we still have a somewhat respected constitution and there are many people fighting in parliament and elsewhere against the corruption and communist-type bills that are being introduced. In general, there isn't as much animosity between people of different colors as the media would portray or the factions want to believe. We pray especially for revival in our country. There aren't as many outright atheists as in Europe and even America, but many hold to a watered-down, almost nominal religion.

I don't know what the future holds. We have local elections in a month's time, and there are a few promising new parties that may siphon some more of the vote from the current government, which can only be for the good. Many of my friends have left the country for greener fields, but I have no such plans. I believe that the land expropriation bill will not pass, but I may be surprised. I truly do not know what advice to give you regarding retirement in South Africa. I love my country and I believe God placed me here for a reason.
 
Hi PG -- Which denomination are you referring to? The reason I ask is that there are several "Dutch Reformed" denominations in South Africa from what I can tell, including some that have ecumenical relationships with faithful Reformed denominations in North America (with which I am more familiar).

For example, I think this denomination is faithful and does not have the same problems you mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Reformed_Church_in_South_Africa_(NHK)
Yes, you are right. There are three main Dutch "mother" churches in South Africa. I was referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Reformed_Church_in_South_Africa_(NGK). I also know some people in the other main denomination, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Churches_in_South_Africa , who are definitely more faithfully reformed, so I may have overstated the degree of backsliding in South Africa.

Thank you for reminding me. I have the perception that the NGK, the more backsliding denomination, is larger than the others. I will have to see if I am correct.
 
Hi PG -- Which denomination are you referring to? The reason I ask is that there are several "Dutch Reformed" denominations in South Africa from what I can tell, including some that have ecumenical relationships with faithful Reformed denominations in North America (with which I am more familiar).

For example, I think this denomination is faithful and does not have the same problems you mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Reformed_Church_in_South_Africa_(NHK)
Looking at the Wikipedia pages, the two more faithful denominations have approximately 250 000 members between them. The one I'm from has more than 1 000 000. But, 250 000 is better than nothing, and I praise God that there are still many in those churches. I pray that they grow.

Edit: There is also the APK, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans_Protestant_Church, which I know are faithful, which has about 30 000 members.
 
I'm far from an expert on South Africa, but I have visited the country several times (originally in 1980 as an engineering student). There are several small but solid reformed institutions training pastors in South Africa, including Mukhanyo Theological College (where I have taught) and Dumisani Theological Institute, which has strong links with the Free Church of Scotland. The Principal of the Bible Institute of South Africa is a graduate of WSCAL and WTS. My sense is that many Christians have left South Africa for understandable reasons (and some of that influx has really helped churches in the UK!), which creates challenges in maintaining leadership of churches. Prayer is certainly needed, as in most places.
 
Most people live in peace with each other. The government is really doing a poor job of taking care of the people. Service delivery is non-existent in most rural areas, yet the governing party still got 57% of the vote in 2019. Most people don't want land; they want jobs and food on the table. It is a political game; the government already owns a lot of land and could have done something in the past 27 years to accelerate the wellbeing of those who were previously disadvantaged. Instead, they embraced a brand of affirmative action in which those with connections get all the jobs and money, while the rest remain in poverty. The situation is dire regarding employment, especially among the youth. The official, vastly underestimated figures, are that total unemployment is at 34.4%; it is 44.4% when including those who have given up on job-searching. Among youth, and South Africa is still a young nation, the official rate is 46%, although the rate according to the expanded definition is something like 64%. Humanly speaking, South Africa is overripe for an "African" spring like we saw in the Arab nations. There is much tinder for a revolution, and there are some loud voices trying to kindle a fire.

That being said, praise be to God, we still have a somewhat respected constitution and there are many people fighting in parliament and elsewhere against the corruption and communist-type bills that are being introduced. In general, there isn't as much animosity between people of different colors as the media would portray or the factions want to believe. We pray especially for revival in our country. There aren't as many outright atheists as in Europe and even America, but many hold to a watered-down, almost nominal religion.

I don't know what the future holds. We have local elections in a month's time, and there are a few promising new parties that may siphon some more of the vote from the current government, which can only be for the good. Many of my friends have left the country for greener fields, but I have no such plans. I believe that the land expropriation bill will not pass, but I may be surprised. I truly do not know what advice to give you regarding retirement in South Africa. I love my country and I believe God placed me here for a reason.
Thanks for that "on the ground" insight. I have a bit of time before I retire, perhaps things will improve in the time between. I pray for the country daily, it has so much potential. A succession of a few good leaders would do it a world of good.
 
Thanks for that "on the ground" insight. I have a bit of time before I retire, perhaps things will improve in the time between. I pray for the country daily, it has so much potential. A succession of a few good leaders would do it a world of good.

It fulfilled its potential wonderfully and then it was undermined from within and taken over by people who are incapable of governing themselves. Now what was once the most Christian nation in the world (during its existence) is in utter ruins where violence and slaughter are rampant and the deliberate ethnic cleansing of Whites- the indigenous South African people- is unofficial Government policy. If I were you I wouldn't retire there. However the same thing is going to happen in America as the ideology behind what is happening in South Africa takes root in American society.
 
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Looking at the Wikipedia pages, the two more faithful denominations have approximately 250 000 members between them. The one I'm from has more than 1 000 000. But, 250 000 is better than nothing, and I praise God that there are still many in those churches. I pray that they grow.

Edit: There is also the APK, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans_Protestant_Church, which I know are faithful, which has about 30 000 members.
Unfortunately we have the same problem here. If you look at the PC(USA) membership numbers they dwarf more faithful Presbyterian churches like the one I'm member of, even if the denomination is in decline. Same thing for Dutch Reformed Churches. The RCA and CRC are much larger than the URC and other faithful denominations. You can't just go to where Presbyterian or Reformed is on the door.

All of NAPARC (most of the confessional Reformed denominations) totals probably 400,000 members in the US, versus around 1 million for the PC(USA).
 
Unfortunately we have the same problem here. If you look at the PC(USA) membership numbers they dwarf more faithful Presbyterian churches like the one I'm member of, even if the denomination is in decline. Same thing for Dutch Reformed Churches. The RCA and CRC are much larger than the URC and other faithful denominations. You can't just go to where Presbyterian or Reformed is on the door.

All of NAPARC (most of the confessional Reformed denominations) totals probably 400,000 members in the US, versus around 1 million for the PC(USA).
Not disagreeing with your broader point (which is absolutely true) but the number of NAPARC members is actually closer to 550,000 today which is a happy improvement. :)

Last year the PCUSA lost as many members as the ARP and RPCNA have combined. Liberal churches are shrinking and confessional and evangelical churches are growing.
 
Nosing back into the conversation to note that my sister's liberal (even by the denomination's standards) PCUSA church has a pastor whose wife was a pastor in South Africa before they got married. They seem to fit the church nicely.
 
Not disagreeing with your broader point (which is absolutely true) but the number of NAPARC members is actually closer to 550,000 today which is a happy improvement. :)

Last year the PCUSA lost as many members as the ARP and RPCNA have combined. Liberal churches are shrinking and confessional and evangelical churches are growing.

What good news! My quick mental math was I knew PCA was around 300k, ARP and OPC are the next two largest at around 30-40k each, and then a lot of smaller ones. Looking at some stats, looks like I underestimated the PCA by about 70k, underestimated the size of the Korean denoinations in NAPARC, and then didn't realize how much the "change" added up. No disrespect meant to smaller denominations (as someone who used to be in a denomination smaller than most of NAPARC) I just was using a rough estimate.
 
We lived in Potchefstroom for a few years and attended the English-speaking service at the Gereformeerde Kerke (Reformed Church of South Africa, referenced above). I serve on the faculty of theology (supervising PhD students) at the university that houses their seminary. I can attest to their faithfulness to confessional Reformed theology.
I can also second Iain's references to both Mukhanyo, founded by a close friend (Flip Buys), and Dumisani, where one of our missionaries (Wilbert Chipenyu) is the principal.
While the Reformed presence in South Africa is relatively small (is there a nation where it is not?), I thank God for the many dear brothers there who labor faithfully for the cause of Christ!
 
We lived in Potchefstroom for a few years and attended the English-speaking service at the Gereformeerde Kerke (Reformed Church of South Africa, referenced above). I serve on the faculty of theology (supervising PhD students) at the university that houses their seminary. I can attest to their faithfulness to confessional Reformed theology.
I can also second Iain's references to both Mukhanyo, founded by a close friend (Flip Buys), and Dumisani, where one of our missionaries (Wilbert Chipenyu) is the principal.
While the Reformed presence in South Africa is relatively small (is there a nation where it is not?), I thank God for the many dear brothers there who labor faithfully for the cause of Christ!
Thank you for your positive note. One of our congregants is a lecturer at Mukhanyo; they really do good work. As I said, we regularly see new faces and there definitely are a lot of brothers and sisters here who labour faithfully. Great to hear of your affiliation with Potch.
 
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