southern baptist censors calvinists

[bigheavyq]

It seems that certain southern baptists pastors have a double standard. While decrying the liberals for denying christians their 1st ammendment rights through their elitism, this pastor has done the same thing. The senior pastor of one of the largest churches in the clearwater/st petersburg, florida area has fired 20 staff personnel for following heretical teachings. These were assistant pastors, janitors, christian school teachers, sunday school teachers, etc. who just happened to follow John Calvin, the "heretic". They were not trying to create division, just standing up for one of the pastors. The youth pastor had been fired because he did not agree with the pastor. then several of his staff wrote a petition to reinstate him. He then fired all of staff who wrote the letter saying they were in gross error and that calvin was not only a heretic but a monster and murderer.
I know of this because a reformed friend of mine who taught the 4th grade class at their school was one of the ones fired for her beliefs.

So what do you think of this?
Have any of you had the same experience?
btw, I wonder what Dr. Al Moeller would think, since he's SB?

 

[JonathanHunt]

Unbiblical church government for a start. The pastor seems to be acting as 'sole elder' and making unilateral decisions. MY reading of the SB situation is that to have elders at all is very uncommon - some Pastors have too much power.

JH

 

[bigheavyq]

mr. hunt
I like your name. btw, what's your middle one? mine is david, it goes so well with jonathan.

I like your poem/song in your signature. who is jessie webb? and where is it published? I'd like to use it.

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by JonathanHunt
MY reading of the SB situation is that to have elders at all is very uncommon - some Pastors have too much power.
JH

Some pastors indeed have too much power in the SBC. It's not always the case, not at all. In some cases, the opposite is true, the church, democratically, has too much power.

In this case, I wonder who the true "monster" is. The pastor is NOT acting biblically. As I understand our polity, the pastor does not have the right to do this, but some rule by intimidation.

I wonder if he has read even one book by Calvin.

 

[LadyFlynt]

It is sad, unfortunately happens. The man should have a few discussions with the professors at the Missouri Baptist Theological Seminary...I understand that many of them are Reformed and are teaching such. My understanding is also that the current pastor at the church we married at is Reformed, but I have heard his sermons in recent years-a bunch of fluff, supposedly he is not allowed to teach reformed theology or else. My Fil is Reformed and SBC...oh boy, there is one man he gets into some interesting conversations with!

[Edited on 25-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
The man should have a few discussions with the professors at the Missouri Baptist Theological Seminary...I understand that many of them are Reformed and are teaching such.

Collen,

Do you mean Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, MO? Don Whitney is a professor there and is most certainly Reformed, very active in the Founders Ministries. I don't know about the rest of the professors there. I think the number of truly Reformed professors in Southern Baptist seminaries is spotty at best.

 

[pastorway]

I was brought up SBC and found it a rare occassion indeed when a pastor could fire anybody. It was the church as a democracy that hired and fired staff, teachers, etc. The SBC pastors I know usually have only one thought about firing....they hoped they don't get fired!!

 

[LadyFlynt]

Ivan, no I am referring to the one around St Louis...though I am aware that there are professors at other of their seminaries.

btw, did you get your BA at SIUE or SIUC?

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Ivan, no I am referring to the one around St Louis...though I am aware that there are professors at other of their seminaries.

btw, did you get your BA at SIUE or SIUC?

Hmmm...there is a SBC college, Missouri Baptist University, in St. Louis. If there is a seminary by that name, it's not SBC.

I went to E.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Sorry...not seminary then...oiy, I get confuddled at times Missouri Baptist is what I was refering to.

E's the better one

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[Anton Bruckner]

The Pastor of the Baptist Church in Clearwater Florida was probably screamings."Heretics, Heretics, I'm surrounded by Heretics"

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Sorry...not seminary then...oiy, I get confuddled at times Missouri Baptist is what I was refering to.

E's the better one

No biggie about the seminary/university thing....

Yes, I think E is better than C, if only for the reason that things are a lot tamer at E, but is a relative statement!

 

[LadyFlynt]

Yes...it's amazinghow many are majoring in partying! And E is where we went to PCA in between churches and still on most Wednesday nights.

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Yes...it's amazinghow many are majoring in partying! And E is where we went to PCA in between churches and still on most Wednesday nights.

Yes, indeed. And I saw the effects of partying at E, but nothing like the stories I heard of C.

Is the PCA church you attend on Wednesday nights on Center Grove Road? I can't remember the name of the church, but I think that's the location of the PCA church. I had a high school friend attending there, I think...or maybe he was a coach at their school...Ed Seivers...I think that's how he spells his name. I haven't seen him in about 34 years!!

 

[LadyFlynt]

I'll look...but they don't have a school. I know years ago...or maybe not so long ago...the church had a fire and then a split. And yes, it's Centre Grove PCA! Pastor Tony Cassoria is there.

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
I'll look...but they don't have a school. I know years ago...or maybe not so long ago...the church had a fire and then a split. And yes, it's Centre Grove PCA! Pastor Tony Cassoria is there.

Well, that's the church. Yes, it was a very long time ago that I was aware of them having a school AND I might just be wrong about them having a school. Never know!

Now I know of at least two Reformed congregations I can visit when I go back home! The other is a new start of a Reformed Baptist church in Highland, IL...I think it's Baptist or something like it!

 

[LadyFlynt]

Is it a plant off of a Bible Church?

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Is it a plant off of a Bible Church?

It certainly could be, but I don't know much about it. I found it listed on the Reformed Baptist Directory. There is very little information...only time and place for worship.

 

[LadyFlynt]

that I think would be our church plant (Hope Community Bible Church or Hope Bible Church) up there...lol...let us know when you are in town and we'll have to attend both. The PCA has a plant in Collinsville called Hope also, but it's not doing so well from what I hear.

Where did you grad hs?

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
that I think would be our church plant (Hope Community Bible Church or Hope Bible Church) up there...lol...let us know when you are in town and we'll have to attend both. The PCA has a plant in Collinsville called Hope also, but it's not doing so well from what I hear.

Where did you grad hs?

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]

Oh, my, small world! LOL Yes, that's the church! Isn't that something?!

Yes, I'd love to worship with you and your family. I'll probably be heading down that way this summer sometime.

I graduated from Highland High School. I lived in New Douglas, about 20 miles north of Highland. I grew up on a farm just outside of town and, of course, attended New Douglas Baptist Church!! LOL

I moved to Edwardsville and went to SIUE and attended Calvary Baptist Church when Roger Ellsworth, a very Reformed Southern Baptist, was pastor there.

 

[RamistThomist]

The nature of a democracy is that one man always rises to the top, vox populi, vox dei. Who was this "pastor"? He probably visits BaptistFire.

 

[LadyFlynt]

It's a small world after all....

my mom and s-dad live in Highland...I have friends out in New Douglas, we actually visited the Baptist church there several times years ago when Steve had a co-worker there.

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
It's a small world after all....

my mom and s-dad live in Highland...I have friends out in New Douglas, we actually visited the Baptist church there several times years ago when Steve had a co-worker there.

If I may ask, who are your friends in New Douglas and who is Steve's co-worker at the church?

The church you visited is the church that I attended for over 20 years of my life....well, I was several weeks old the first time I attended! LOL It has changed quite a bit physically since those days, even from 30 years ago.

It would still be consider Dispensational and has some free will tendencies, but is still a VERY conservative church. I still like attending there and seeing all the old saints, some of whom have been attending since my childhood and even before my birth, believe it or not.

 

[RamistThomist]

What church in Florida did this come from? The quote, that is

 

[bigheavyq]

it is the first baptist church of indian rocks, I can't recall the pastors name. it has 7,000 members and is one of the biggest churches in the area. This pastor has been there for over 20 years.

 

[Larry Hughes]

I agree with Pastorway. One of the things I've seen here in KY as Southern Sem. produces more Calvinistic pastors is that when they go out into the State and come to these churches that have had basically nothing for at least a generation or more is that they have to tread lightly. Its almost like a mission field in and of itself.

They run into two types of people. 1) Those who reject sovereign grace and who want to get rid of this man with 'strange teachings'. 2) Those who have never heard it before, but love it and are dying to learn more. It has been in the handful I know personally a core group that sustains them. Though the threat of being fired looms.

Like I said it is almost like a mission field in the church itself. OR kind of like Paul going to the Synogogue.

Larry

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by Larry Hughes
I agree with Pastorway. One of the things I've seen here in KY as Southern Sem. produces more Calvinistic pastors is that when they go out into the State and come to these churches that have had basically nothing for at least a generation or more is that they have to tread lightly. Its almost like a mission field in and of itself.

They run into two types of people. 1) Those who reject sovereign grace and who want to get rid of this man with 'strange teachings'. 2) Those who have never heard it before, but love it and are dying to learn more. It has been in the handful I know personally a core group that sustains them. Though the threat of being fired looms.

Like I said it is almost like a mission field in the church itself. OR kind of like Paul going to the Synogogue.

Larry

It has truly been providental the number of Calvinists have encountered in my Southern Baptist life and those who have been at least tolerate of my beliefs.

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by joshua
When I was amogst the SBCers, I never met any Calvinists. I was fighting an uphill battle, while spitting against the wind, barefeet in the snow.

Cold and wet, eh?

Having the pastor I did in college made a HUGE difference in my spiritual life. He was Calvinist through and through. He introduced me to many of the authors that are discussed here on the board and I think spending time with him, because he became my good friend too, I was able to make contacts among Southern Baptists who were Calvinists. They have always been there, but, yes, far and few between.

 

[Larry Hughes]

Josh,

That to. At our former church, a rather large church in Louisville. The senior pastor is more like a mini-pope and I would say has no doctrine what so ever. Many of his staff being Southern students where calvinistic. He slowly forced them out. We left because I got so sick of it. I couldn't even pray some of his lead prayers they were so horrid.

My brother in law was on the staff there and run into a problem. Do I teach against the pastor who is the authority or do I teach what I know to be unbiblical?

larry

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by bigheavyq
It seems that certain southern baptists pastors have a double standard. While decrying the liberals for denying christians their 1st ammendment rights through their elitism, this pastor has done the same thing. The senior pastor of one of the largest churches in the clearwater/st petersburg, florida area has fired 20 staff personnel for following heretical teachings. These were assistant pastors, janitors, christian school teachers, sunday school teachers, etc. who just happened to follow John Calvin, the "heretic". They were not trying to create division, just standing up for one of the pastors. The youth pastor had been fired because he did not agree with the pastor. then several of his staff wrote a petition to reinstate him. He then fired all of staff who wrote the letter saying they were in gross error and that calvin was not only a heretic but a monster and murderer.
I know of this because a reformed friend of mine who taught the 4th grade class at their school was one of the ones fired for her beliefs.

So what do you think of this?
Have any of you had the same experience?
btw, I wonder what Dr. Al Moeller would think, since he's SB?

As my pastor says the SBC is full of "rank liberals"... I concur. I was raised a Congregationalist, and after I grasped the doctrines of grace, I saw it was a doctrine that divided the church of my youth. I used to make fun of Baptists and now I'm a Reformed Baptist. Granted, the PCA has no shortgage of problems of its own.