Split Thread: Can Musical Notes, Arrangements, and Beats Be Inherently Evil?

[Grymir]

JBaldwin, you are soooo right. There is alot of junk that we should not listen to outside of church.

Rap music and Contemorary Christian Music are two that come to mind. I'm serious too. Rap music promotes evil. The beat used is the same as primitive tribal people to induce altered states of consiousness. CCM music glorifies man so much, it makes the disco songs downright righteous!

 

[panta dokimazete]

How would the medium affect the appropriateness? (I seem to be using that word alot, lately!)

I believe that even some instrumental music may not be appropriate for a believer.

And that may indeed be the subject of another thread.

 

[Gloria]

JBaldwin, you are soooo right. There is alot of junk that we should not listen to outside of church.

Rap music and Contemorary Christian Music are two that come to mind. I'm serious too. Rap music promotes evil. The beat used is the same as primitive tribal people to induce altered states of consiousness. CCM music glorifies man so much, it makes the disco songs downright righteous!

*chuckles*

 

[panta dokimazete]

The beat used is the same as primitive tribal people to induce altered states of consiousness.

Sorry, but this is a strawman...and a weak one a that - can you be driven into an altered state of conciousness by a mere beat? There is no evidence that beat alone can force mental states. (Can certainly influence the experience, but not directly cause it.)

I think the state of the mind, heart and soul are much more likely to be the source of the problem than the circumstance.

 

[blhowes]

Rap music and Contemorary Christian Music are two that come to mind. I'm serious too. Rap music promotes evil. The beat used is the same as primitive tribal people to induce altered states of consiousness.

The beat promotes evil?

 

[Grymir]

It's not a strawman. And when combined with the lyrics that are used, it only compounds the evil. The beat of the music increases the heart beat and affects areas of the brain and becomes addictive. And affects a person like a drug. And they need more and more. Even the praise music used in contemporary worship does the same thing. Exactly the same thing, with lyrics repeated over and over and over. Just doing that alone will do the trick.

This has to do with why reading is so much different than watching T.V. Reading engages the brain. T.V. and music bypass the judgment center of the brain and just gets absorbed.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Please point to some validated research to support your initial assertion. Otherwise it is just that - a flawed premise.

Keep in mind that I am not disagreeing that overexposure to combining multiple elements of music may be deleterious to one's mental and emotional health - I am asking you to clarify that the one element - beat - can induce altered states of consciousness.

 

[Sonoftheday]

Sorry, but this is a strawman...and a weak one a that - can you be driven into an altered state of conciousness by a mere beat? There is no evidence that beat alone can force mental states. (Can certainly influence the experience, but not directly cause it.)

I think the state of the mind, heart and soul are much more likely to be the source of the problem than the circumstance.

I could not defend the statement made about primitive tribes, But there is certainly something blatantly sensual/sexual contained in the rythm of much of the Rap/Hip Hop music. Also music can have definite mood altering effects if not mind altering effects. There have been many times before I cleansed my musical collection that I would put in a certain CD only to find myself unexplicably angery, or arroused.

It is because of these experiences in my own life I would agree totally with what you said.

I believe that even some instrumental music may not be appropriate for a believer.

Christians should be cautious as to the beat of the music and the way it effects thier mood whether or not the lyrics are explicitly sinful.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I am skeptical that mere beat - a rhythmic combination of percussion and tempo - can somehow contain/supply some inherent evil - please provide Scriptural or other evidental support for this assertion.

Psalm 68:24-26
24They have seen Your procession, O God,
The procession of my God, my King, into the sanctuary.
25The singers went on, the musicians after them,
In the midst of the maidens beating tambourines.
26Bless God in the congregations,
Even the LORD, you who are of the fountain of Israel.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I see Josh and I are parallel posting

 

[py3ak]

In certain circumstances it is undeniable that a beat affects you. One time my wife and I got on a bus in Mexico, and had to get off almost immediately. The music was turned up so loudly that we could feel our hearts changing to pound with the rhythm of the beat, and that was so fast and hard that Heidi was made physically ill, and if we'd stuck around a few minutes longer I would have been as well. Now obviously that may be an extreme circumstance: but when a beat is loud enough, it certainly does affect your heartbeat, and thus your physical condition.

 

[JBaldwin]

In certain circumstances it is undeniable that a beat affects you. One time my wife and I got on a bus in Mexico, and had to get off almost immediately. The music was turned up so loudly that we could feel our hearts changing to pound with the rhythm of the beat, and that was so fast and hard that Heidi was made physically ill, and if we'd stuck around a few minutes longer I would have been as well. Now obviously that may be an extreme circumstance: but when a beat is loud enough, it certainly does affect your heartbeat, and thus your physical condition.

Even though this is off topci, I find this interesting because I have a student who is doing research for a science project on the way music and beat impacts the body and the brain. So far, his research strongly supports the idea that music has a profound impact on heart rate and mood. This is not really new information though since Musak (the elevator music people) have been making a fortune supplying grocery and department stores with music to boost sales.

 

[Grymir]

To all concerned, there is no direct "thou shall not" in the Bible per se, but alot of allusions, ie importing foreign customs and the ways of the heathens.

Joshua, I didn't separate Rap lyrics from the music when I called it evil. It is. And my statement isn't pushing anything on anybody. Sinful nostalgia?? I think not. Rap music was not my drug of choice. In fact, that is why I was lead to my conclusions. When I was studying psychology in school I thought that only drugs could induce such behaviors. But when I read up on the Aztec and Mayan temple rituals, I had to change my mind. They did amazing things. And got others to do it to.

Panta, here's one study - Title here!

There are many more. Google 'rhythm induced states of consciousness' and you'll have far more than is needed to justify my position. Many things besides music can do it. Starvation, diet, sexual activity, breathing techniques, sensory depravation, sensory overload, dancing. Here's another study - http://www.mp.uni-tuebingen.de/mp/fileadmin/user_upload/Kotchoubey/Vaitl-2005-ASC.pdf

My statements still stand.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Last post on this off-topic subject - no one has challenged the fact that beat, combined with other elements, may have a physiological/psychological effect on some peoples moods - I am challenging the assertion that beat alone can send someone into a state of altered consciousness on the level a psychotropic substance can.

 

[Grymir]

VirginiaHuguenot, now I know why you 'd this thread.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Mods - if this continues, I'd request we extract this discussion into another thread.

 

[Grymir]

"I am challenging the assertion that beat alone can send someone into a state of altered consciousness on the level a psychotropic substance can." You misquote and misrepresent what I said. I just asserted that it can put someone into an altered state of consciousness.

I love threads like this. Training for the real world.

 

[panta dokimazete]

"I am challenging the assertion that beat alone can send someone into a state of altered consciousness on the level a psychotropic substance can." You misquote and misrepresent what I said. I just asserted that it can put someone into an altered state of consciousness.

What is the difference between what you quoted and what you responded?

I love threads like this. Training for the real world.

twu, so twu!

 

[Grymir]

Psychotropic substance altered states of consciousness are something else. I used to do alot. Nothing can do it like a good hit of purple dot. (LSD). Beat alone nor nothing thats not a drug can equal those kind of experiences. But I was surprised when I was in school (After God cleaned me up) that non-drug experiences could make people do things and think in particular ways. I did alot of research in this field. Cognitive psychology is my particular 'pet' method. I thought that primitive man must have of had some gooood drugs. But other things can alter the mind. Even the praise music used at Contemporary Worship services can do it. Just repeat "I love the Lord" 300 times will do the trick. And its more than Rap music. (I had no idea i would be jumped on for singling it out) Speed metal can do it to.

 

[timmopussycat]

The beat used is the same as primitive tribal people to induce altered states of consiousness.

Sorry, but this is a strawman...and a weak one a that - can you be driven into an altered state of conciousness by a mere beat? There is no evidence that beat alone can force mental states. (Can certainly influence the experience, but not directly cause it.)

I think the state of the mind, heart and soul are much more likely to be the source of the problem than the circumstance.

While I agree with your conclusion, I dissent from your premise. Musical rhythms can indeed induce an altered state of consciousness. This fact has been known for years, is the basis of music therapy, and has been made use of by various businesses in order to achieve certain results. It's not just rock, but the rhythms of classical music can alter consciousness too. I vividly remember one concert I played in where I became conscious midway through the opening movement of Brahms's Second symphony that all my body's internal rhythms were adjusting to the tempo of the music. The same thing happened during an entire performance of Mahler's Second as well, and not just to me. Some of the others in the orchestra had the same experiece.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Andrew, do you have that link to Vos' (I think it was Vos?) Separated Life?

Here you go!

Links and Downloads Manager - Christian Walk Links - The Bible Doctrine of the Separated Life by J.G. Vos - The PuritanBoard

 

[Grymir]

Joshua, I wasn't making them binding. I agree with what you are saying.

please don't me!

 

[panta dokimazete]

Psychotropic substance altered states of consciousness are something else. I used to do alot. Nothing can do it like a good hit of purple dot. (LSD). Beat alone nor nothing thats not a drug can equal those kind of experiences. But I was surprised when I was in school (After God cleaned me up) that non-drug experiences could make people do things and think in particular ways. I did alot of research in this field. Cognitive psychology is my particular 'pet' method. I thought that primitive man must have of had some gooood drugs. But other things can alter the mind. Even the praise music used at Contemporary Worship services can do it. Just repeat "I love the Lord" 300 times will do the trick. And its more than Rap music. (I had no idea i would be jumped on for singling it out) Speed metal can do it to.

Regardless of your experience - you still keep going back to beat + "something" - which was not the premise of your original post - that somehow beat alone could lead to an altered state of consciousness - besides - I will challenge you to repeat or sing I Love you Lord 300 hundred times and wind up in a verifiable altered state of consciousness - I know if I did it, it would lead much more to a bored state of mind than some state of altered consciousness - admit it or not - your premise is flawed and unsubstantiated.

Blessings!

 

[panta dokimazete]

The beat used is the same as primitive tribal people to induce altered states of consiousness.

Sorry, but this is a strawman...and a weak one a that - can you be driven into an altered state of conciousness by a mere beat? There is no evidence that beat alone can force mental states. (Can certainly influence the experience, but not directly cause it.)

I think the state of the mind, heart and soul are much more likely to be the source of the problem than the circumstance.

While I agree with your conclusion, I dissent from your premise. Musical rhythms can indeed induce an altered state of consciousness. This fact has been known for years, is the basis of music therapy, and has been made use of by various businesses in order to achieve certain results. It's not just rock, but the rhythms of classical music can alter consciousness too. I vividly remember one concert I played in where I became conscious midway through the opening movement of Brahms's Second symphony that all my body's internal rhythms were adjusting to the tempo of the music. The same thing happened during an entire performance of Mahler's Second as well, and not just to me. Some of the others in the orchestra had the same experiece.

Brother, I once more will say - I am not arguing that there is individual physiological/psychological effect components to music - I am challenging the assertion that a specific type of beat alone can send a person or group of folk into some evil altered state of consciousness as my brother asserted.

 

[Coram Deo]

Wow, how did I become the author of this thread.... And I did not want to talk about it in-depth....

 

[Grymir]

oh noo! Not classical music...I like that....say it isn't sooo!! It's also true. (Sigh, it's always easy to say things when you don't like the music that people are talking about.)

I also like metal. Old school. Really old school. (all the performers of the stuff I listened to look sooo old now. I guess I do to!)

 

[Grymir]

Hey Coram, I just entered an altered state of consciousness when I saw that you got the credit.

Could you change the title to read - "Can musical notes, arrangements, and beats induce altered states of consciousness"?

 

[panta dokimazete]

To all concerned, there is no direct "thou shall not" in the Bible per se, but alot of allusions, ie importing foreign customs and the ways of the heathens.

Joshua, I didn't separate Rap lyrics from the music when I called it evil. It is. And my statement isn't pushing anything on anybody. Sinful nostalgia?? I think not. Rap music was not my drug of choice. In fact, that is why I was lead to my conclusions. When I was studying psychology in school I thought that only drugs could induce such behaviors. But when I read up on the Aztec and Mayan temple rituals, I had to change my mind. They did amazing things. And got others to do it to.

Panta, here's one study - Title here!

There are many more. Google 'rhythm induced states of consciousness' and you'll have far more than is needed to justify my position. Many things besides music can do it. Starvation, diet, sexual activity, breathing techniques, sensory depravation, sensory overload, dancing. Here's another study - http://www.mp.uni-tuebingen.de/mp/fileadmin/user_upload/Kotchoubey/Vaitl-2005-ASC.pdf

My statements still stand.

Sorry - did not see the titled post - from the link:

Subjects were asked to close their eyes and listen to the drumming, and to make an imaginary journey into the underworld.

Bold mine...

They gamed the conclusion - they should have at least given no instructions about imaginary journeys...very specious experiment.

Your assertion is still flawed.

 

[Grymir]

aw, man, Now I have to take the heat. Oh well, If you can't take the heat, don't cook in the kitchen. I love this stuff. I'm ready. Bring on the judgemental attitudes and the ranters. Lets roll. This is actually a good subject.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Are you asserting I am judgmental or a ranter or both?