Split Thread: Can Musical Notes, Arrangements, and Beats Be Inherently Evil?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Josh, I'm sorry, I didn't see your post before I replied to Andrew: this is a rapidly-moving thread and it's hard to keep up!

I do agree with you that we should be very careful about saying that all Christians are sinning in engaging in a certain activity (unless that activity is proscribed by God's law, of course). And so I think I agree with Vos that science, etc., cannot give us a premise in a syllogism declaring something sin, (E.g., 1. Harming yourself is sinful; 2. Smoking is harming yourself; 3. Therefore, smoking is sinful) --that is an example of an illegitimate argument, for several reasons. But we can and must generalize about imprudence on grounds of general knowledge and using broad strokes, even though we cannot dogmatize about sin on any basis except Scripture.
 
As far as I'm concerned, there is no question of seeking church rulings, or pushing for ecclesiastical discipline, or condemning a chord or a beat or a style as intrinsically, physically sinful. But it is my understanding that individual Christian prudence is going to have to use generalizations on frequent occasions, and Josh's post seemed to rule out all generalizations. Hence my interest.

And in Charismatic churches like the one I spoke of, it is the individual in the congregation that never seems to stop and ask himself, "What am I doing, why am I here and what is my motive?" I wonder... are we really discussing music here or is it the focus of the invividual? I listen to teaching by Reformed preachers at my desk every day while I'm working. But sometimes when I get really burned out from it all I turn on some old Rock and Roll and "tune out." Most days I barely "hear" the music at all. It's just noise in the background. If I understand some of you guys right, it's affecting me in a negative way and I just don't realize it? :think:
 
I think we're discussing music as a matter of Christian prudence in which every Christian must be persuaded in his own mind, but in order to arrive at that persuasion may find it helpful to have the input of other believers.
 
The point of this thread is misleading from the title. Inhearntly evil and sinful were not what got this going. That types of music and beats cause altered states of conscience is what got people going.
 
The point of this thread is misleading from the title. Inhearntly evil and sinful were not what got this going. That types of music and beats cause altered states of conscience is what got people going.

Can these two subjects be separated? Isn't music that causes altered states of conscienceness evil and sinful?
 
Isn't music that causes altered states of conscienceness evil and sinful?

Only if 1.) music can in fact cause altered states of consciousness and 2.)all altered states of consciousness are inherently evil and sinful.
 
I'm not sure. Inherently is one thing, but the effect of such are another. When applied to the music that permiates the culture, I think so. The lyrics of the songs would be absorbed into the listeners thought process without them thinking about it. And it would then affect their behavior without the listener even thinking about it. So yes, it could be.
 
Christians should be cautious as to the beat of the music and the way it effects thier mood whether or not the lyrics are explicitly sinful.
This is certainly true on an individual level. However, it becomes a problem when it is pushed upon all Christians without exception. Why? Because Scripture nowhere substantiates such an inherent evil with a particular musical note, beat, or arrangement (again, divorced from lyrical content, sinful nostalgia, etc.). There are certainly folks who should stay away from certain types of music. But they may not push that on all others without exception.

Just as many folks should steer clear of alcohol consumption, but shouldn't push it on others.

I got busy here at work, come back and the thread's been split. I want to clarify that I was not arguing that we should judge others about the beat of music. But I was arguing that we should test and examine ourselves so that we do not let music persuade our emotions in a direction that is not Christian (sexually or violently).
 
The point I was making, and still stand by, was that music can cause altered states of consciousness. That they are evil and sinful was what others were saying. I've never said that Christians shouldn't do such things. But look at the culture and the way people behave. It's just one peice in a big puzzle.
 
"When there's trouble you call DW"

That is a musical beat that will forever effect me causing me to have an altered state of consciousness, one that is reflective of my youth.
 
I am the terror that flaps in the night, I am the rap song that produces an altered state of consciousness, I'm the caller that hangs up when you pick up the phone at 3:00am.
 
I heard this in a calvinistic baptist church in the south:

The black africans used tribal beats for their pagan worship. When they became slaves they brought their pagan music over. Rock and roll was nothing more than whites taking up black music and popularizing it for the general population - i.e. the general culture adopting elements of low culture, and ever since our society has been indecline - which is what happens when we adopt traits of cultures that are less refined.

No lie.



Is anyone advocating that here?



Also, what is wrong with music affecting our moods? Techno is very good to run to. We can put music under human use.


In the M river valley, guitars in church are welcome but not flutes, which are associated with pagan worship. In fact, if someone stubs their toe, they shout "bamboo flute" - i.e. taking the name of their flute in vain. Therefore, if the local church tried to introduce worship music with a drum...no problem....but the flute...... they would be severely opposed - because after all it is obvious that flute music is the devil's music!
 
"When there's trouble you call DW"

That is a musical beat that will forever effect me causing me to have an altered state of consciousness, one that is reflective of my youth.

I see what you're saying. To alter something isn't always a sin. I'm not even sure if we understand "consciousness" enough to even discuss it. For instance, (having little or no faith in psychology) I truly doubt that there is any such thing as a "subconscious."
 
Pergamun. Not me. I've hinted at the Church being influenced by the culture, but not what you are saying. The last half of you post is what i've been saying.
 
Okay, that's good....


But the "classical' composers too have syncopated rythms and accented back beats on occasion too.

How does your argument have any shred of objectivity rather than merely asserting the opinion "This sounds holy...this does not sound holy..."
 
Last Post Since it is not the Dawn of the Sabbath here....

No I am not advocating that, though I have heard that argument before and from Calvinistic Fundy Dispensational Baptist before... :lol: (Including a family member on my wife's side who will remain unnamed)....

But to every lie there is a bit of truth... Here is the truth from that statement... Rock Music is traceable to Tribal Voodoo Pagan Worship that was brought over and incorporated into American Culture... It has nothing to do with low culture vs high culture or anything in between... It has to do with Satanic Demonic Voodoo Pagan Influences which was brought over.... And it is true that our society is in decline and I do believe that the ungodly culture including Rock Music has a part in it... What did Plato Say? "Let me write the music of the nation, and I care not who rights it laws" Oh How true that statement is.. It was written 2000 years ago and it is true the same today.... Rock Music is Sexual, but it is also Rebellious and it influences Rebellion.. It does not matter how many laws we have on the books.. Who ever writes the music of the nation will rule and control the masses....




I heard this in a calvinistic baptist church in the south:

The black africans used tribal beats for their pagan worship. When they became slaves they brought their pagan music over. Rock and roll was nothing more than whites taking up black music and popularizing it for the general population - i.e. the general culture adopting elements of low culture, and ever since our society has been indecline - which is what happens when we adopt traits of cultures that are less refined.

No lie.



Is anyone advocating that here?



Also, what is wrong with music affecting our moods? Techno is very good to run to. We can put music under human use.


In the M river valley, guitars in church are welcome but not flutes, which are associated with pagan worship. In fact, if someone stubs their toe, they shout "bamboo flute" - i.e. taking the name of their flute in vain. Therefore, if the local church tried to introduce worship music with a drum...no problem....but the flute...... they would be severely opposed - because after all it is obvious that flute music is the devil's music!
 
Okay, that's good....


But the "classical' composers too have syncopated rythms and accented back beats on occasion too.

How does your argument have any shred of objectivity rather than merely asserting the opinion "This sounds holy...this does not sound holy..."


Classical music does it too. Sigh, see my previous post. Sounding Holy or not isn't the standard we (at least me) are not going by. I'm talking abstract concepts, not necessarily concrete examples. Maybe that's why people are misunderstanding me, or why I'm misunderstanding them.

I'm living in an Amish Paradise.
 
You're not so much talking about abstract concepts - you are talking about subjective things.

De gustibus non est disputandum
 
"De gustibus non est disputandum" ? sorry, the only foreign language I know is King James. :p
 
But taste isn't what this is about. Even the music I like falls into this discussion.
 
Most of the time I turn off music because it grieves my spirit to hear such ungodly lyrics (usually coupled with a sensual or intense beat as an enhancer of the message portrayed by the lyrics).

But of all the garbage I used to listen to when I was younger, I never was influenced to kill, steal, etc. Neither was I ever put into some altered state of consciousness. If anything any sin that derived from me was out of my own lustful, sinful, wicked heart. I do not blame the music.

I am a muscian myself (classical) and if I am wrapped up in a Beethoven Symphony or Rachmaninov Piano Concerto, or Mozart Requiem, it isn't because I am altered to do evil, or even idolizing the composers, but it is because it is so beautiful that I turn to God the author of beauty. Now.. not all classical music does this of course, but powerful and beautiful pieces of music draws me to think about God's awesomeness.

I realize this is all anecdotal and serves no purpose of "proof", just thought I'd share my personal experience with music. :2cents:
 
:offtopic: I put that there as he was my favorite rock star to emulate when I was younger. My band copied Rush to a tee!! I changed to that because I wanted people to realize that I'm not some holier than thou person when it came to what I was saying on this thread. That even what I like to listen to can come under the stuff that I was talking about. Thanks by the way from noticing. I was wondering if anybody even knew who he was. (I liked the old Rush. Haven't listened to them since grace under pressure. They sold out.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top