Sunday's Message: A blessing, and I wonder...

[blhowes]

WARNING! Massive brain dump! My apologies.
SUMMARY: Is the faith spoken of in Romans 11 saving faith, and how can we demonstrate the faith of Elijah?

--and now, back to the regularly scheduled program--

It was a blessing yesterday to hear the guest preacher preach on Romans 11. Like me, I'm sure many of you have probably heard many sermons about Romans 11:1 - "...Hath God cast away his people? God forbid!" from the dispensational perspective. It was refreshing to hear this sermon preached and to hear about how God has not cast away his people, both when Paul wrote Romans or in the future. God has a plan for Israel, but it has nothing to do with a political Israel. He spoke of God having a remnant (the elect) then, now, and in the future that He will save. Just like Paul used himself of an example of the remnant, so there will be a remnant saved in the future. Good stuff.

The preacher didn't get into the olive tree much, other than to talk a little about the attitude of the gentiles towards the Jews. But just touching on it reminded me of the struggle I have with that passage.

I've been at the PB for quite a while, and I've read a lot of posts about the olive tree. I just can't seem to get into my thick skull what Paul is teaching, especially with regards to those gentiles who were grafted in.

Reading this passage definitely helps me see the continuity between the church and the OT saints, in contrast to the dispensational view. But I'm stuck on the gentiles who were grafted in.

If I understand it correctly, those branches that were pruned off represent unbelieving Israel, who were pruned because of unbelief - they had not believed in and rejected Jesus. Those branches that remained were the remnant, who believed and received Jesus.

The gentiles Paul refers to that were grafted in had faith in Jesus, therefore became part of the olive tree. My brain hickups when I think of these, who had faith in Jesus and were grafted into the olive tree, yet could be broken off.

What is the relationship between the faith exercised by these gentiles and regeneration? I mean, is there anything in the passage to indicate that this was a false or misplaced faith, one that doesn't involve somebody being born again? How can a person who exercises a false faith be considered to be grafted in?

Maybe someday I can stop with this passage and start .

************
[monty python]
And now for something completely different...
[/monty python]

The preacher also spoke about Elijah, and I got to thinking about the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal. Elijah was allowed to dramatically show the children of Israel the contrast between the one true God and the false god of the heathen. His was a unique experience, but I was just pondering what we could glean from that story with regards to our interactions today. Elijah exercised faith in God and God acted amazingly. In what way(s) would God have us exercise faith today so that people can see God's power and how different He is from false gods people follow today?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Bob,
Is the olive tree the visible or invisible church?

 

[blhowes]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Bob,
Is the olive tree the visible or invisible church?

Scott,
I would tend to say invisible. The branches that were broken off represent Jewish people who were part of the Jewish visible church. They were broken off from the olive tree because of unbelief, but weren't separated from the visible church that they were a part of. They remained a part of the visible church that they were raised in.

The exercising of faith by the gentiles, and their being grafted in, also seems to indicate (to me) the invisible church. It speaks of faith, similar to what the remnant exercised.

Guess: You disagree?

Bob

 

[Scott Bushey]

Bob,
Think about the covenant. The olive tree is the kingdom of Heaven. The visible church has believers and unbelievers in it. The unbelievers are reprobate and will eventually be cut off for unbelief and tossed into the fire. As well, what is the requirement for visble church membership? Confession? Would we consider this valid proof of one's eternal position in Christ? No. It is not valid proof. Only God knows who are the true branches.


Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The net has believers and unbelievers in it:

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 15:

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Here's a previous thread to refer to:
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5990#pid72049

Key: If one can be cut off, it cannot be the invisible church as the invisible church consists of only the elect.

[Edited on 12-5-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by blhowes

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Bob,
Think about the covenant. The olive tree is the kingdom of Heaven.

I understand what you're saying. Let me just think it through one step at a time.

Here you equate the olive tree with the kingdom of heaven, that has a mixture of good and bad, saved and unsaved, which will be separated at the consummation. Why would we equate the two this way? I couldn't find the OT verse that speaks of Israel as being the olive tree, but you probably know the one I'm talking about. Why wouldn't the olive tree represent Israel, as described in Romans 9:6

The church is the Israel of God! That visible church has always had believers and unbelievers in it.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Not all that are in the visible church are really believers.......

The branches that remain, and those that are grafted in, represent the spiritual Israel, the invisible church. Those that were broken off represent unbelieving Israel.

No, it represents the visible church. the invisible church will have no people cut off from here; they are Gods elect.

In context, it seems Paul is speaking of spiritual Israel.

Paul describes those branches that were broken off:

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When Paul talks of branches being broken off and grafted in, its in the context of his desire for his fellow countrymen to be saved. They didn't obey the gospel, lacked faith, and were cut off from the olive tree. Those who were cut off lacked what Paul, part of God's remnant, possessed - saving faith in Jesus.

Yes. They were at one time part of the visible church, but eventually, because of lack of faith, they proved apostate and were removed.

The reverse of this process, the gentiles in view here, obeyed the gospel, had faith, and were grafted into the olive tree.

Yes. But key is this: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The same warnings that are presented in the book of hebrews!

[Edited on 12-5-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[blhowes]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Here's a previous thread to refer to:
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5990#pid72049

Key: If one can be cut off, it cannot be the invisible church as the invisible church consists of only the elect.

[Edited on 12-5-2005 by Scott Bushey]

OK, after reading that thread, I'll have to change my view a bit, then go into think mode to figure out how that impacts other thoughts about the passage.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Those who originally were part of the olive tree were cutoff because of unbelief, but there's the possibility that they can be graffed in if they believe. Therefore, it seems clear that the branches that were cut off may represent people who are both elect and non-elect. This may also be true of the branches attached to the olive tree (they may contain both elect and non-elect), but I need to think it through.

The branches (Jewish unbelievers) were cut off from the olive tree because of unbelief. What must they then believe to be graffed in again? They must have faith. Saving faith?

Trying to make sense of it,
Bob

 

[Scott Bushey]

 

[blhowes]

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

So, I guess if a gentile can be grafted into the olive tree and can also be cut off from the olive tree, then some of those who are attached to the olive tree must not be of the elect. Both the branches broken off and those attached to the olive tree may be elect or non-elect.

Interesting.

[Edited on 12-6-2005 by blhowes]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by blhowes
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

So, I guess if a gentile can be grafted into the olive tree and can also be cut off from the olive tree, then some of those who are attached to the olive tree must not be of the elect. Both the branches broken off and those attached to the olive tree may be elect or non-elect.

Interesting.

[Edited on 12-6-2005 by blhowes]

Right; It's an example of the visible church; believers and unbelievers.

 

[non dignus]

Was the Roman Catholic church 'cut off' at Trent?