TE Peter Leithart Not Guilty of Federal Vision

[Romans922]

Is anyone else getting frustrated with the PCA? This saddens me very much. Trust in God's plan, pray for peace and purity.

Stories:

Breaking News: PCAPacific Northwest: Peter Leithart is not guilty « Green Baggins




Creed Code Cult: The Votes Are In....

 

[NaphtaliPress]

This was sort of expected at the presbytery level, wasn't it?

 

[Romans922]

This was sort of expected at the presbytery level, wasn't it?

Yes, in a way, but the SJC having said he was guilty probably doesn't look so good for the future (if complaints are brought).

 

[Phil D.]

Peter Leithart Declared "Not Guilty" by PCA Presbytery

The PCA’s Pacific Northwest Presbytery, at its October 7, 2011 meeting, found Teaching Elder Peter Leithart not guilty of charges brought against him regarding holding and teaching views associated with Federal Vision. This comes on the heels of the acquittal of another TE, Greg Lawrence, in my own Presbytery of the Siouxlands. However, many in the PCA believe that very serious and troubling questions remain in both of these cases, and I know that an official complaint is likely in the Lawrence case.

You can read more about the Leithart case HERE, and the Lawrence case HERE

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Merged.

 

[Phil D.]

Merged.

Thanks, Chris, I didn't see Rev. Barnes' post.

Is anyone else getting frustrated with the PCA?

YES

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I honestly expected this. Is the Frustration Level going up or down in the PCA over this kind of stuff? What kind of precedent is this making for other denominations of NAPARC?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Maybe I don't understand this but this troubles me, "The trial was held in closed session on June 3-4, 2011." Why did this proceed as a closed session? This isn't an issue of moral failure but one of doctrine. I could understand a closed session if it was about Moral failure. But this was a doctrinal issue. A closed session seems to indicate that something is amiss or there might be something to hide maybe. Doctrinal issues should not be ones that are set up as closed sessions in my estimation. Is this the correct procedure when one's doctrine is in question?

 

[TimV]

Randy a lot of them are related to each other.

The PCA SJC is very conservative, and they're not going to stand still. But, it's the pew potatoes that have to start initiating change unless they want hom$$xual pastors in a couple of years.

Yes, PCA members reading this. I'm talking to you.

 

[Romans922]

Maybe I don't understand this but this troubles me, "The trial was held in closed session on June 3-4, 2011." Why did this proceed as a closed session? This isn't an issue of moral failure but one of doctrine. I could understand a closed session if it was about Moral failure. But this was a doctrinal issue. A closed session seems to indicate that something is amiss or there might be something to hide maybe. Doctrinal issues should not be ones that are set up as closed sessions in my estimation. Is this the correct procedure when one's doctrine is in question?

Randy, here are some relevant posts and comments:

http://www.weswhite.net/2011/06/Peter-leithart-trial-on-friday/
http://www.weswhite.net/2011/06/closed-heresy-trials-forbidden-in-the-opc/
[URL]http://www.weswhite.net/2011/06/secret-trials/[/URL]

 

[uberkermit]

While I can appreciate due process, and things being done in order, I also wonder what it takes to get this mess sorted out. Did not the PCA officially reject the Federal Vision? Doesn't Peter Leithart's name appear on the Joint Federal Vision Statement? So what is it going to be? If Peter Leithart does not adhere to false doctrine, let him come away from those who insist on it.

 

[Edward]

Is anyone else getting frustrated with the PCA?

I believe at least part of the problem is too many small presbyteries. If they merged presbyteries so that there were a minimum of 75 or 100 teaching elders in each, it might help with the problem.

 

[yoyoceramic]

PCA Facebook Page.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Presbyterian-Church-in-America-PCA/8636138931?sk=wall&filter=1

 

[Romans922]

Edward,

MO presbytery is one of the largest presbyteries in the PCA. It houses Jeff Meyers (FVer) being brought up on charges which twice the presbytery has said he is orthodox.

PNW is also a large presbytery (29 churches or so in it), this is where the Leithart trial took place. This has nothing to do with size of presbyteries, but this has to do with who makes up the presbyteries.

 

[Edward]

unless they want hom$$xual pastors in a couple of years

That's certainly the direction things are heading, and a bit more rapidly than I would have thought. One of our fellow members here in effect called me a liar (and has never apologized) when I pointed out that some PCA churches have women deacons. Another member has posted a link to a PCA church that boasts a woman 'pastor'. Regan Wilds

The whole FV issue, and how it is being addressed is a symptom, not the problem.

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

MO presbytery is one of the largest presbyteries in the PCA. It houses Jeff Meyers (FVer) being brought up on charges which twice the presbytery has said he is orthodox.

Thanks.

PNW is also a large presbytery (29 churches or so in it),

I wouldn't consider that large.

 

[Phil D.]

I have to say as the whole FV scandal continues to drag on in the PCA, I'm seeing more and more comments like this, and this.

I'm not quite yet there myself, but, regretfully, I can envision a day in the not so distant future when I may be. No denomination is sacrosanct.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

It is true that this kind of thing brings out the separatist mindset, which is not a good thing.

 

[seajayrice]

I have to say as the whole FV scandal continues to drag on in the PCA, I'm seeing more and more comments like this, and this.

I'm not quite yet there myself, but, regretfully, I can envision a day in the not so distant future when I may be. No denomination is sacrosanct.

Disappointing to say the least. Really to bad for all the healthy churches in the PCA. Looking down the road one could be concerned about joining the PCA given viable alternatives. At the very least I'd be cautious about joining certain presbytery's as much as individual bodies.

 

[Zenas]

I'm convinced no church judiciary system can do anything right.

 

[Scott1]

It would be interesting to know what the Presbytery level vote was.

The earlier opinion was divided, the final result is repeated. It is now ripe for review.

 

[Pilgrim]

unless they want hom$$xual pastors in a couple of years

That's certainly the direction things are heading, and a bit more rapidly than I would have thought. One of our fellow members here in effect called me a liar (and has never apologized) when I pointed out that some PCA churches have women deacons. Another member has posted a link to a PCA church that boasts a woman 'pastor'. Regan Wilds

The whole FV issue, and how it is being addressed is a symptom, not the problem.

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

MO presbytery is one of the largest presbyteries in the PCA. It houses Jeff Meyers (FVer) being brought up on charges which twice the presbytery has said he is orthodox.

Thanks.

PNW is also a large presbytery (29 churches or so in it),

I wouldn't consider that large.

Perhaps not, but there are other presbyteries that are doing good to have a dozen churches. In my area, I know that certain TE's pushed to divide a Presbytery 20 or so years ago because they didn't want to have to drive more than a couple of hours to go to presbytery meetings. When the prospect of simply trying to offer some kind of help to a neighboring presbytery (which had lost several churches to the CREC b/c of the FV) came up, one of the older ministers reacted sharply and appeared to view that mere gesture as constituting a move toward reunification.

In the same presbytery a few years ago a man was ordained (a CTS grad and also associated with Myers, If I recall correctly) who took exception to the Standards teaching on not marrying "papists". (WCF 24.3) He stated that he didn't see what the problem with that was. He also said he didn't understand why they can't be admitted to the Lord's Supper either. After repeated questioning he still didn't appear to get it and pleaded ignorance regarding Catholicism, despite the fact that the church that had called him is in one of the most heavily Catholic regions of the USA.

 

[py3ak]

Another member has posted a link to a PCA church that boasts a woman 'pastor'. Regan Wilds

How is it possible to tell that this is a PCA church? Not from their website, it would seem.

 

[Romans922]

It would be interesting to know what the Presbytery level vote was.

The earlier opinion was divided, the final result is repeated. It is now ripe for review.

Scott,

Jason Stellman communicated that the vote was overwhelmingly in favor of the commissions (unanimous) recommendations that he be found not guilty of the charges.

He says the following:

The report was received overwhelmingly by the PNWP.

Concerning the voting, the commission's verdict on each of the five charges was voted on separately, with votes like 33-3-2 or 33-5 (in favor of the commission's not guilty verdict) being pretty representative.​

​

 

[Pilgrim]

Another member has posted a link to a PCA church that boasts a woman 'pastor'. Regan Wilds

How is it possible to tell that this is a PCA church? Not from their website, it would seem.

It is revealed here, which required several more clicks than usual compared with other websites of churches that tend to downplay their denominational identity.

 

[Scott1]

Mr. Stellman's blog

Charge 1 Regarding Baptism Not Guilty 9-0

Charge 2 Regarding the Covenant of Works Not Guilty 9-0

Charge 3 Regarding Imputation Not Guilty 9-0

Charge 4 Regarding Justification/Sanctification Not Guilty 9-0

Charge 5 Regarding Union and Apostasy Not Guilty 9-0

Without being familiar with the composition of the committee, nor having read the reasoning, this breakdown clearly lays out the several, major, spiritual issues at stake.

It forms the record well for appellate review, that is judicial review.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Grace Church is made up of a wide diversity of church backgrounds, united by our central focus on the gospel. We have a relationship of mutual accountability and support and are connected to the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). This is a fast-growing denomination that emphasizes biblical faithfulness and outreach. Becoming a member at Grace does not require becoming Presbyterian, only that you have a personal relationship with Christ.

Presbyterian in Name Only.

PINO

 

[seajayrice]

Grace Church is made up of a wide diversity of church backgrounds, united by our central focus on the gospel. We have a relationship of mutual accountability and support and are connected to the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). This is a fast-growing denomination that emphasizes biblical faithfulness and outreach. Becoming a member at Grace does not require becoming Presbyterian, only that you have a personal relationship with Christ.

Presbyterian in Name Only.

PINO

How can this be? I thought Presbyterian governance was a distinctive of the PCA? How does someone join a presbyterian church and not be Presbyterian?

 

[Pilgrim]

Mr. Stellman's blog

Charge 1 Regarding Baptism Not Guilty 9-0

Charge 2 Regarding the Covenant of Works Not Guilty 9-0

Charge 3 Regarding Imputation Not Guilty 9-0

Charge 4 Regarding Justification/Sanctification Not Guilty 9-0

Charge 5 Regarding Union and Apostasy Not Guilty 9-0

Without being familiar with the composition of the committee, nor having read the reasoning, this breakdown clearly lays out the several, major, spiritual issues at stake.

It forms the record well for appellate review, that is judicial review.

This makes the Louisiana Presbytery in the Wilkins case look good by comparison. I think there were at least a handful of elders who consistently voted against Wilkins.

 

[Edward]

Presbyterian in Name Only

No, not even in name. It's Grace Community Church. Around here, that spells Dipsy. I don't know what it means there. Progressive?

How is it possible to tell that this is a PCA church? Not from their website, it would seem.

I couldn't find it there either, in a quick look - others apparently had more perseverance than I did. I checked the web address against that for a church in the PCA directory.

 

[yoyoceramic]

It's interesting that Mike Horton was called as a witness by the prosecutor. I'd love to be able to read the minutes.