The A-Millennial and Post Millennial Views

Status
Not open for further replies.

Barnpreacher

Puritan Board Junior
To my Amill and Postmill brothers,

I'm asking this question to get your dialogue and perspective on things. When someone takes a different theological or eschatological stance than I do I like to know why they believe what they believe. And pray the Lord could use it to help me if I'm in error on some point in my doctrine, or vice-versa.


My question is this: How do you take such passages as Ezekiel 40-48, Zechariah 13-14, Joel 3, Isaiah 24-27, Luke 1:32-33, and much of Revelation from a figurative sense? God spends so much time making it clear that in "this day" or "that day" he is going to "gather the nations together", "restore the remnant", etc.

He gets so specific with these passages, what's the point from an amill or postmill perspective? Why spend nine chapters in Ezekiel talking about a temple? (BTW - I don't believe that the sacrifices in the millennial kingdom have any redemptive value to them, just memorial.)

Why spend so much time talking about gathering the nations together at Jerusalem? Why talk about gathering them together into "a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon"?

So many things in O.T. books seem to be unfulfilled prophecy unless you take most of it figuratively. Why do you make the choice of taking most of the eschatological passages in the O.T. strictly from a figurative sense?

Again, just hoping to learn another perspective from the one I have studied all my life. Thanks.
 
Uhh, Because that is what He was going to do?

It's all in the past brother they already gathered, they already fought, and the temple has already been destroyed.

Past tense baby, past tense!:lol:

[Edited on 9-5-2006 by Kevin]
 
It is as oversimplication of eschatology to limit the loci to the "end times issues". I would encourage you (if you haven't already) to read M Kline, Vos, Beale and Michael Horton. Reading Vos -Biblical theology will quickly illuminate this point. These are great scholars who can help present the Amil position and why it is significant. You also need to realize how much presupposition your bring to the table in presuming how obvious the premil position "ought" to be the Amil/Post mil brothers. If your serious about getting an answer to the question I think it is only fair you spend some time reading and responding to the flagship scholars listed. I am sure anyone on this board would appreciate a pre-mil reading some Kline or Horton and making specific reference to a particular thesis or exegesis of a passage rather than having us respond to a general statement of disagreement. Fair enough?
 
Can we List the Flagship Authors with their respective books for each:

1. Amil
2. Post Mil

That would be helpful
 
A defense against the rebuilding of the third temple. These are notes of mine taken from Gentry's "He shall have dominion".. I am sure I will be using them for a long time to come and thought others may be able to as well.

--------------------------------------------------------
The rebuilt temple of Ezekiel 40-48

1)This is a VISION, as such there are parts of this vision which simple cannot be taken literally.

a)The site of the temple is on a very high mountain (Ezek. 40:2)
There is NO very high mountain in the area of Jerusalem.

b)The source and flow of the river is incredible!(Ezek 47:1-2)
It becomes a "œmighty river".

c)The function of this river is to make the Dead Sea fresh, and bringing to life all that it touches. (Ezek. 47:6-12)

d)The 12 tribes are provided parallel tracks of land, which would be awkward in real geography. (Ezek 47:13)


2)Trying to say that "œsacrifices" will resume as memorials is just too much!

a)Ezekiel 43
19you shall give to the Levitical priests of the family of Zadok, who draw near to me to minister to me, declares the Lord GOD, a bull from the herd for a sin offering.

b)Ezekiel 40
39 In the portico of the gateway were two tables on each side, on which the burnt offerings, sin offerings and guilt offerings were slaughtered.

c)Ezekiel 43
21 You are to take the bull for the sin offering and burn it in the designated part of the temple area outside the sanctuary.

d)Ezekiel 45
15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings [1] to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign LORD .

e)Ezekiel 45
17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths-at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.

f)Ezekiel 45
20 You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.

g)Ezekiel 43
20 You are to take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar and on the four corners of the upper ledge and all around the rim, and so purify the altar and make atonement for it.

h)Ezekiel 43
26 For seven days they are to make atonement for the altar and cleanse it; thus they will dedicate it.

As can READ here"¦.these are NOT "œmemorial" sacrifices! They make atonement!

THIS is the ONLY memorial we need for sin;

1 Corinthians 11

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.


3)This vision taken literally would Judaize Christianity instead of Christianizing the adherents of Judaism.

a)It would reimpose circumcision and displace baptism.
Ezekiel 44
9 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.

YET"¦.we have this teaching.

Ephesians 2
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.



No, there is no literal rebuilding of a third temple for some 1000-year literal Millennial reign of Christ on Earth.
 
The Antichrist, the Beast, and the man of lawlessness

1 John 4: 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

1 John 2: 18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.[3] 21I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he made to us[4] --eternal life.
26I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything--and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you--abide in him.


Do you see what happened here? Johns audience was expecting a "œfuture anti-Christ." But John corrects them and tells them that the anti-Christ is ALREADY HERE! Because these anti-Christ´s and the spirit of anti-Christ had appeared it meant the last hours had already come! When John says "œeven now" John is saying what they feared was already here!

2 John 1
7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

By these passages we learn;

-The Anti-Christ is not one single ruler looming in the future.

-The Anti-Christ IS a contemporary, heretical tendency regarding the person of Christ that was very current in John´s day!

NOW"¦

The man of lawlessness and The Beast of Revelation were also men of John´s time though distinct from Antichrist.


The Beast of Revelation;

I have mentioned before how John expected the events of this Revelation to happen SOON. (Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:10) The beast had to be someone relevant to the original audience of John´s letter.

Who was the beast?

Generically he was the ancient Roman Empire.

Revelation 17
9This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;

The Rome of the time of this writing by John was KNOWN by their "œseven mountains".

Specifically he was Nero Caesar;

- Rev 13:18 = 666"¦the Hebrew spelling of Nero was Nrwn Qsr which equals the numerical sum 666. Later the number was translated 616. This was no accident! 616 is the numerical value of Nero´s name when spelled in Hebrew by translating it from the more common Latin spelling.

- His "œbeastly image" The pagan writer Apollinius of Tyana, an actual contemporary of Nero, specifically mentions that Nero was called a "œbeast".

- The war on the Saints! The beast is said to make was on the Saints and overcome them. Specifically for 42 months! Nero´s persecution of Christianity is the first ever assault on Christianity by the Roman Empire! The persecution came to an end 42 months later! Nero´s death even came by a sword as per Rev 13:14

Now"¦

2 Thessalonians 2
3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[1] is revealed, the sonof destruction,[2] 4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

This refrence is in regard to AD70. The rebellion is the rebellion of the Jews from Rome. It has to be this because the revolt against Rome is datable, but the revolt against God is ongoing.
Now, what restrained this man of lawlessness? Well it appears to be the Roman government! At the time Judaism was a LEGAL religion and Rome considered Christianity to be a "œsect" of Judaism.

Acts 25
11If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death. But if there is nothing to their charges against me, no one can give me up to them. I appeal to Caesar." 12Then Festus, when he had conferred with his council, answered, "To Caesar you have appealed; to Caesar you shall go."

When Paul wrote to the Thessalonians he was still under the government of Claudius Caesar, he may have even used a word play on Claudius´s name in this passage! The Latin word for "œrestraint" is "œClaudere". If you take note, Paul shifts between the neuter and the masculine reference to the "œrestrainer".

2 Thessalonians 2
6And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

While Claudius lived Nero was kept at bay. The Christian persecution did not begin until the Neronic persecution in November of A.D.64

As for sitting in the temple, this was always a desire of the Emperor´s starting with Caius who sought to place his image on the outside of the Jewish temple! Eventually Titus invaded the temple and did such a thing!

2 Thessalonians 2
8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

Nero was revealed after Claudius was removed. He was destroyed in the midst of the Jewish war (June 8 A.D.68) on the Day of the Lord. He was destroyed with the coming and breath of the Lord like Assyria was destroyed in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 30

27Behold, the name of the LORD comes from afar,
burning with his anger, and in thick rising smoke;[1]
his lips are full of fury,
and his tongue is like a devouring fire;
28his breath is like an overflowing stream
that reaches up to the neck;
to sift the nations with the sieve of destruction,
and to place on the jaws of the peoples a bridle that leads astray.
29You shall have a song as in the night when a holy feast is kept, and gladness of heart, as when one sets out to the sound of the flute to go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel. 30And the LORD will cause his majestic voice to be heard and the descending blow of his arm to be seen, in furious anger and a flame of devouring fire, with a cloudburst and storm and hailstones. 31The Assyrians will be terror-stricken at the voice of the LORD, when he strikes with his rod.

Finally, a listing of "1000 years" as mentioned in scripture besides Rev 22

1000 years in Scripture

Psalm 50
10For every beast of the forest is mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.

Deuteronomy 1
11May the LORD, the God of your fathers, make you a thousand times as many as you are and bless you, as he has promised you!

Deuteronomy 7
9Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Psalm 84
10For a day in your courts is better
than a thousand elsewhere.
I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God
than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

Psalm 90
4For a thousand years in your sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
or as a watch in the night.
 
Zechariah 14 and the Coming of Christ

By Gary DeMar
President - American Vision
http://www.americanvision.org/

Gary DeMar Study Archive | Biblical Minimalism and the "History of Preterism" | Thomas Ice and the Time Texts | Will the Real Anti-Prophets Please Stand Up? | Time's Puff Piece: The Devil is in the Details | Dispensationalism : Being Left Behind | Zechariah 14 and the Coming of Christ | Defending the Indefensible | No Fear of the Text | The Passing Away of Heaven and Earth | Who or what is the Antichrist | Rapture Fever: Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed | Identifying Antichrist | On Thin Ice | Using the Bible to Interpret the Bible | DeMar Articles

In the premillennial view of Bible prophecy, the events depicted in Zechariah 14 are most often interpreted as depicting the second coming of Christ when Jesus will descend from heaven and stand on the Mount of Olives and from there set up His millennial kingdom. The chronology outlined in Zechariah, however, does not fit this scenario. Events actually begin in chapter thirteen where it is prophesied that the Shepherd, Jesus, will be struck and the sheep will be scattered (Zech. 13:7). This was fulfilled when Jesus says, "'You will all fall away, because it is written, "I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED"'" (Mark 14:27).

What follows describes events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. God will act as Judge of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. As the king, He will send "his armies" and destroy "those murderers, and set their city on fire" (Matt. 22:7).

For I will gather all the nations [the Roman armies] against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered [Matt. 24:17],the women ravished [Luke 17:35], and half the city exiled [Matt. 24:16], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech. 14:2).

This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1). The Roman Empire "extended roughly two thousand miles from Scotland south to the headwaters of the Nile and about three thousand miles from the Pillars of Hercules eastward to the sands of Persia. Its citizens and subject peoples numbered perhaps eighty million."1 Rome was raised up, like Assyria, to be the "rod of [His] anger" (Isa. 10:5). "So completely shall the city be taken that the enemy shall sit down in the midst of her to divide the spoil. All nations (2), generally speaking were represented in the invading army, for Rome was the mistress of many lands."2 Thomas Scott, using supporting references from older commentators and cross references to other biblical books, writes that Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70.

The time when the Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was "the day of the Lord" Jesus, on which he came to "destroy those that would not that he should reign over them" [Matt. 22:1­10; 24:3, 23­35; Luke 19:11­27, 41­44]. When the Romans had taken thecity, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted [Luke 21:20­24]. A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and thus were "not cut off from the city" of God [Gal 4:21­31;Heb. 12:22­25].3

Forcing these series of descriptive judgment to leap over the historical realities of Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 so as to fit a future judgment scenario is contrived and unnecessary.

Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle (14:3).

After using Rome as His rod to smite Jerusalem, God turns on Rome in judgment. Once again, Assyria is the model: "I send it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury to capture booty and to seize plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets . . . . So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness'" (Isa. 10:5­6, 12­13). "It is significant that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem."4 Thomas Scott concurs: "It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders."5

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zech. 14:4).

It is this passage that dispensationalists use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah "coming down" to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present. Notice how many times God's coming is associated with mountains.

"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" (Gen. 11:5, 7).
"So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8).

"Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13a).

"Bow Thy heavens, O LORD, and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke" (Psalm 144:5).

"For thus says the LORD to me, 'As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the LORD of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).

"Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence­" (Isa. 64:1).

"When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:3).

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God "is coming forth from His place" to "come down and tread on the high places of the earth." How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."6

What is the Bible trying to teach us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives "split in its middle"? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian (A.D. 145­220) wrote: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]."7 Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:

The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.8

You will notice that there is no mention of a thousand year reign. Yet, we are told that "the LORD will be king over all the earth" (14:9). So what is new about this language? "For the LORD Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet" (Psalm 47:2, 3). This is exactly what happened with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Paul told the Roman Christians that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Rom. 16:20). The church's adversary (Satan) were those Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah and persecuted His Bride, the church (see John 16:2). Jesus calls them a "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 3:9).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES

1. Otto Friedrich, The End of the World: A History (New York: Coward, McCann and Geoghegan, 1982), 28.

2. G. N. M. Collins, "Zechariah," The New Bible Commentary, F. Davidson, ed., 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1954), 761.

3. Thomas Scott, The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, According to the Authorised Version; with Explanatory notes, Practical Observations, and Copious Marginal References, 3 vols. (New York: Collins and Hannay, 1832), 2:955

4. Collins, "Zechariah," 761.

5. Scott, The Holy Bible, etc., 956.

6. Ralph Woodrow, His Truth is Marching On: Advanced Studies on Prophecy in the Light of History (Riverside, CA: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1977), 110.

7. "Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3:417.

8. Matthew Henry, Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, 6 vols. (New York: Fleming H. Revell, n.d.), 4:1468.
 
More notes I have taken from Gentry's "He shall have Dominion"

-------------------------
Israel in scripture:

Israel in the Old Testament is the forerunner of and the continuous with the New Covenant phase of the church which is the fruition if Israel. New Testament Christians may even call Abraham our father and the Old Covenant peoples our "œfathers".

Romans 4

16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

1 Corinthians 10

1I want you to know, brothers,[1] that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

We are grafted into Israel.

Romans 11
16If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[1] of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

We were made ONE with Israel partaking of her promises!

Ephesians 2
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[1] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

In fact, Christ chose 12 disciples in order to serve as the spiritual seed of a new Israel taking over for the 12 sons of the Old Covenant Israel. Both the names of the 12 sons and the 12 apostles are incorporated into the one City of God, the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21
12It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed-- 13on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Terms that the Church is called in the New Testament that associates her with Israel.

-Seed of Abraham
-The Circumcision
-A royal Priesthood
-Twelve Tribes (James 1:1)
-The Temple of God

1 Peter 2
5you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"[1]
8and "A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

1 Peter 2
10Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Titus 2
14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.




The Church is flat out referred to as the Israel of god!

Galatians 6
16And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

The ENTIRE book of Galatians speaks to the incorrect notion that there is some "œspecial" status amongst the Jews for being Jewish!

Galatians 3
26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[1] nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


WHY would Paul believe or speak to a "œspecial section" of God´s people (The Israel of God) when he had taught this?

Galatians 6
15For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Now we DO need to understand that the Church is NOT a "œstraight line" continuation of Israel! The church FULFILLS Israel through Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
20For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.


Galatians 3
29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Romans 8
17and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Ephesians 1
23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Colossians 2
10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.





Scripture clearly tells of this in the Old Testament.

Jeremiah 31
31"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah

This NEW covenant was started with the Lords Supper!

Matthew 26
28 for this is my blood of the[1] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14
24And he said to them, "This is my blood of the[1] covenant, which is poured out for many.

Luke 22
20And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.[1]

Notice here that it is NOT said that he is a minister of a second covenant or another new covenant!

2 Corinthians 3
6who has made us competent[1] to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Look at Hebrews 8 that CLEARLY speaks of the NEW covenant! There are NOT two covenants still in force here as the text clearly teaches!

Hebrews 8
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tent[1] that the Lord set up, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." 6But as it is, Christ[2] has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
8For he finds fault with them when he says:[3] "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."
13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Paul PLAINLY teaches that the conversion of the Gentiles is a "œconfirming of the promises to the fathers".

Romans 15
8For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name."
10And again it is said, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples extol him."
12And again Isaiah says, "The root of Jesse will come,
even he who arises to rule the Gentiles;
in him will the Gentiles hope."

The preaching of the gospel is the hope of the Jews!

Acts 26
6And now I stand here on trial because of my hope in the promise made by God to our fathers, 7to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly worship night and day. And for this hope I am accused by Jews, O king!





Look, the promises to Israel did NOT set forth a literal, political kingdom, but a spiritual, gospel kingdom!

Acts 13
32And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'

Could it get ANY clearer at all?????

Why yes, yes it CAN get more clear!

Romans 2
28For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

The Old Testament does indeed refer to the Church.

Hosea 1
9And the LORD said, "Call his name Not My People,[1] for you are not my people, and I am not your God."[2]
10[3] Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, "You are not my people," it shall be said to them, "Children[4] of the living God."

Hosea 2

23and I will sow her for myself in the land.
And I will have mercy on No Mercy,[1]
and I will say to Not My People,[2] 'You are my people';
and he shall say, 'You are my God.'"

How do we know this refers to the Church? Why Paul tells us!

Romans 9
24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"





The "œChurch" was only a mystery to the Gentile Nations! But the Church was clearly revealed in the Old Testament however to the Jews!

Ephesians 3
3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is[1] that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Luke 24
44Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

The distinction between Jew and Gentile has forever been done away with! Paul points this out!

Ephesians 2
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Colossians 3
11Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,[1] free; but Christ is all, and in all.
 
From Charles Provan's: The Church is the Israel of God (Rosshouse Books).


SECTION 1
Old Testament Titles And Attributes of Israel Which Are, In The New Testament, Referred To The Christian Church
Titles and attributes are in bold type [in the original book - TI] so that the reader may notice them more easily. The surrounding (non-bold) verses are included so that the context may be examined.
These Scripture passages demonstrate that the Christian Church is Israel now because of the fact that the Old Testament titles and attributes of Israel are applied en masse to the Church in the New Testament.

Where available, we have also included various Old and New Testament scriptures which deny these same titles and attributes to disobedient Israel.





THE BELOVED OF GOD
Israel Is Beloved Of God
Exod 15:13-16 / Deut 33:1-4 / Ezra 3:10-11
****************************************************************
Some may be confused by the use of the word "forever" in this passage, and may come to the conclusion that God's love for Israel is unconditional. However, this is clearly not the case, unless we say that Scripture contradicts itself, for, in the following section, we will examine Scripture which states that God hates Israel when Israel is in a state of disobedience. To further illustrate the Scripture's interpretation of the word "forever", please refer to 1Sam 2:30 (see below), where the same word is used.
****************************************************************

Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God
Lev 26:28,30 / Jer 12:8 / Jer 16:5 / Hos 9:15 / Amos 9:7 / Mat 3:7 / Phil 3:2 / 1Thess 2:14-16 / Titus 1:10
The Christians Are Beloved Of God
Rom 9:25 / Eph 5:1 / Col 3:12 / 1John 3:1
THE CHILDREN OF GOD
Israelites Are The Children Of God
Exod 4:22 / Deut 14:1 / Isa 1:2,4 / Isa 63:8 / Jer 31:9 / Hos 11:1
Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of God
Deut 32:5 / John 8:39,42,44
****************************************************************
Moses states in Deut 32:5 that Israelites who "act courruptly toward" God are "no longer his [God's] children." And Jesus says that Israelites who do evil things are in reality children of the Devil, not of God.
****************************************************************

The Christians Are The Children Of God
John 1:12 / John 11:52 / Rom 8:14,16 / 2Cor 6:18 / Gal 3:26 / Gal 4:5-7 / Phil 2:15 / 1John 3:1
THE FIELD OF GOD
Israel Is The Field Of God
Jer 12:10
The Christians Are The Field Of God
1Cor 3:9
THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH
Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah
Pss 78:52 / Pss 80:1 / Isa 40:11 / Jer 23:1-3 / Jer 31:10 / Ezek 34:12,15-16 / Zech 10:3 / Mic 5:4
****************************************************************
This passage refers to the nation of Israel as the flock of the Messianic King, that is, the Christ. (Here it is worth pointing out that the term "Messiah" is Hebrew for "Anointed One". The common designation "Christ" is just the Greek equivalent of "Messiah", as both "Christ" and "Messiah" mean the same thing.)
****************************************************************

The Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah
John 10:14,16 / Heb 13:20 / 1Pet 2:25 / 1Pet 5:2-3
THE HOUSE OF GOD
Israel Is The House Of God
Num 12:7
The Christians Are The House Of God
1Tim 3:15 / Heb 3:2,5-6 / Heb 10:21 / 1Pet 4:17
THE KINGDOM OF GOD
Israel Is The Kingdom Of God
Exod 19:6 / 1Chr 17:14 / 1Chr 28:5
Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God
Mat 8:11-12 / Mat 21:43
The Christians Are The Kingdom Of God
Rom 14:17 / 1Cor 4:20 / Col 1:13 / Col 4:11 / Rev 1:6
THE PEOPLE OF GOD
The Israelites Are The People Of God
Exod 6:7 / Deut 27:9 / 2Sam 7:23 / Jer 11:4
Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God
Hos 1:9 / Jer 5:10
****************************************************************
Though many people have the impression that the Jews are the people of God, yet these verses from the Old Testament demonstrate that if a Jew does what is evil in the sight of the Lord, he is not a member of the people of God.
****************************************************************

The Christians Are The People Of God
Rom 9:25 / 2Cor 6:16 / Eph 4:12 / Eph 5:3 / 2Thess 1:10 / Titus 2:14
THE PRIESTS OF GOD
The Israelites Are The Priests Of God
Exod 19:6
Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God
1Sam 2:28,30 / Lam 4:13,16 / Ezek 44:10,13 / Hos 4:6 /
****************************************************************
Some people think that if God says that someone is a priest, he is always a priest. This view is seen to be incorrect. Sin results in the person's disqualification from the priesthood (1Sam 2:30). When the priests of Ezekiel's time "went astray", they ceased to be priests (Ezek 44:13). When the nation of Israel rejected the knowledge of God, God rejected Israel as his priests (Hos 4:6). This would dispose of the view that Israel had, or has, an unconditional covenant with God for the priesthood.
****************************************************************
Mal 2:2,4,8-9
****************************************************************
Note that the message of Malachi to the priests of Israel is that they must repent, or God will discontinue his "covenant with Levi." Since the Levitical priesthood hasn't existed for the past 1900 years, which is longer than it existed (c. 1600 years), it evidently was cancelled by God due to the sins of the people and priests of Israel.
****************************************************************

The Christians Are The Priests Of God
1Pet 2:5,9 / Rev 1:6 / Rev 5:10
THE VINEYARD OF GOD
Israel Is The Vineyard Of God
Isa 5:3-5,7 / Jer 12:10
The Christians Are The Vineyard Of God
Luke 20:16
****************************************************************
Jesus here tells the people of Israel that when "the son of the vineyard owner" (Jesus) is killed by "the tenants" (the Jews), that "the owner of the vineyard" (God) will "give the vineyard to others" (that is, the righteous among the Gentiles). This does not prove that the Jews cannot be part of the vineyard. It means that the vineyard ("Israelite status") is now given without regard to racial descent.
****************************************************************

THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD
Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
Isa 54:5-6 / Jer 2:2 / Ezek 16:32 / Hos 1:2
Dosobedient Israel Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
Jer 3:8 / Hos 2:2
****************************************************************
Much is made of the fact that Israel "is the bride of God himself." What is not referred to is the Biblical fact that if Israel is in a state of sin (such as rejecting the Christ) they are divorced from God. The Church is now the wife of Christ (who is, as we know from the Old and New Testaments, God).
****************************************************************

The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
2Cor 11:2 / Eph 5:31-32
THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM
The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham
2Chr 20:7 / Pss 105:6 / Isa 41:8
Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of God
John 8:39 /
****************************************************************
Jesus in this passage agrees that the people he is talking with were physically descendants of Abraham. Yet in the eyes of God this counted for nothing if they desired to kill Jesus, "a man who told the truth he heard from God." On the contrary, to be regarded as the true sons of Abraham, one must "do the things Abraham did."
****************************************************************
Rom 9:6-7 /
****************************************************************
Most people think of the Jews as the children of Abraham. Yet Scripture records that Abraham had many other children besides Isaac, through whom the Jews trace their lineage (a fact which is greatly open to dispute). In Gen 16:16, Abraham had a son by Hagar, and in Gen 25:1-2, Abraham is said to have had six more sons by Keturah, another wife of his. Yet God stated to Abraham that the descendants of Abraham would be reckoned through Isaac, the child born to Abraham through faith in God. Paul says that this fact demonstrates that the true children of Abraham are reckoned as those who have the faith of Abraham, not those who can trace mere physical descent from Abraham.
****************************************************************
Gal 4:25,30
****************************************************************
Paul, quoting God in Genesis, says that those who are merely Jews by racial descent have no share in the inheritance of the true sons of Abraham, that is, the Christians.
****************************************************************

The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham
Rom 4:11,16 / Gal 3:7,29 / Gal 4:23,28,31
****************************************************************
We can see from these verses that the true sons of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham, those who belong to Christ.
****************************************************************

THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
The Israelites Are The Chosen People
Deut 7:7 / Deut 10:15 / Deut 14:2 / Isa 43:20-21
Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People
Deut 31:17 / 2Kgs 17:20 / 2Chr 25:7 / Pss 78:59 / Jer 6:30 / Jer 7:29 / Jer 14:10
The Christians Are The Chosen People
Col 3:12 / 1Pet 2:9
****************************************************************
Sadly, if people today would be asked, "According to the Bible, who are the chosen people?", we suspect that most would answer: "The Jews, of course!" By this, they would mean those persons who are racially Jews, or those who are followers of Judaism. This shows the sorry state of affairs which exists when the Bible is not studied, because the Bible states that the Christians are the chosen people, chosen not because of racial descent or following the traditions of the Rabbis, but because of faith in and obedience to God.
****************************************************************

THE CIRCUMCISED
The Israelites Are The Circumcised
Gen 17:10,13 / Judg 15:18
****************************************************************
Samson calls the Philistines by the name of "the uncircumcised", by which it may be deduced that the Israelites regarded themselves as "the circumcised."
****************************************************************

Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised
Jer 9:25-26 / Rom 2:25,28 / Phil 3:2
The Christians Are The Circumcised
Rom 2:29 / Phil 3:3 / Col 2:11
ISRAEL
Israel Is Israel
****************************************************************
As it is obvious that in the Old Testament Israel is Israel, we have not included any Scripture in this first section.
****************************************************************

Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites
Num 15:30-31 /
****************************************************************
God here declares that any Israelite who sins defiantly against the word of the Lord must be "cut off from his people." That is, if an Israelite deliberately disobeys the word of God, he is no longer to be regarded as an Israelite, in spite of the fact that some believe in an "unconditional" covenant of God with Israel.
****************************************************************
Deut 18:19 /
****************************************************************
God says in this passage that he is going to send a mighty prophet to Israel, who will arise from among the people of Israel, and will be just like Moses. God himself will tell this prophet what to say to Israel, and when he comes to Israel, the Israelites must obey him or "be called to account," that is, be cut off from membership in Israel. (This is the penalty for disobeying the word of the Lord: Num 15:31, above.)
Some people say that this passage does not refer to an individual prophet to come, but rather to any prophet at all. This is seen to be incorrect by the fact that right after Moses, Joshua (who was a prophet, Josh 6:26; 1Kgs 16:34) led Israel, yet Deuteronomy says "Since [Moses' death], no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses..." Therefore, the Deuteronomy passage must refer to an individual great prophet who would arise and lead Israel.
****************************************************************
Acts 3:23 /
****************************************************************
Peter the Apostle declares to Israel that the prophet who was to come according to Deut 18:18-19 is none other than Jesus. Further, Peter informs the Jews that any Jew who does not listen to Jesus "will be completely cut off from among his people." This passage explicitly proves that any Jewish person who rejects the words of Jesus is not to be regarded as a member of the nation of Israel.
****************************************************************
Rom 9:6
The Christians Are Israel
John 11:50-52 /
****************************************************************
Caiaphas the High Priest prophesied that Jesus would die "for the people [of Israel]". John, interpreting the prophecy, says that this was aprophecy of Christ dying for "the scattered [Gentile] children of God". Therefore since the crucifixion, both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ are members of "the people of Israel".
****************************************************************
1Cor 10:1 /
****************************************************************
Paul, talking to Gentile Christians at Corinth, speaks of the Israelites who crossed the Red Sea as "our forefathers"! How is this possible unless the Corinthian Gentile believers in Christ were regarded by Paul as part of the nation of Israel?
****************************************************************
Gal 6:15-16 /
****************************************************************
The real "Israel of God" are those who come to Christ, not those who are merely circumcised.
****************************************************************
Eph 2:12,19
****************************************************************
Paul says that before the Gentile believers came to Christ, they were "excluded from citizenship in Israel". But, through submitting themselves to Christ, these same Gentiles have become "fellow citizens with God's people". Therefore, all people, whether of Jewish or Gentile descent, who come to Christ, are now members of the true nation of Israel.
****************************************************************

JERUSALEM
Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Israel
Pss 149:2 / Isa 12:6 / Isa 49:18,20,22 / Isa 51:18 / Lam 4:2
Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians
Gal 4:26 /
****************************************************************
Paul says that Jerusalem is the Mother of the Christians. Therefore, the Christians are the true sons of Zion, as opposed to the sons of Judaistic Zion, who are slaves, according to Paul.
****************************************************************
Heb 12:22
THE JEWS
Israelites Are Jews
Ezra 5:1 / Jer 34:8-9 / Zech 8:22-23
Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews
Rom 2:28 / Rev 2:9 / Rev 3:9
Christians Are Jews
Rom 2:29
THE NEW COVENANT
The New Covenant Is With Israel
Jer 31:31,33
The New Covenant Is With The Christians
Luke 22:20 / 1Cor 11:25 / 2Cor 3:6 / Heb 8:6,8,10
AN OLIVE TREE
Israel Is An Olive Tree
Jer 11:16 / Hos 14:6
The Christians Are An Olive Tree
Rom 11:24
****************************************************************
The Olive Tree under discussion in Rom 11 is clearly Israel, for it is called "their [Israel's] own olive tree"! Note that Christians of Gentile descent are now part of the tree (Israel), while Jews who have no faith in the Christ have been broken off, as Rom 11:20 says. So, it may be observed that being a true Israelite in the eyes of God depends upon whether one has faith, and is entirely disconnected with a racial background.
 
Originally posted by New wine skin
It is as oversimplication of eschatology to limit the loci to the "end times issues". I would encourage you (if you haven't already) to read M Kline, Vos, Beale and Michael Horton. Reading Vos -Biblical theology will quickly illuminate this point. These are great scholars who can help present the Amil position and why it is significant. You also need to realize how much presupposition your bring to the table in presuming how obvious the premil position "ought" to be the Amil/Post mil brothers. If your serious about getting an answer to the question I think it is only fair you spend some time reading and responding to the flagship scholars listed. I am sure anyone on this board would appreciate a pre-mil reading some Kline or Horton and making specific reference to a particular thesis or exegesis of a passage rather than having us respond to a general statement of disagreement. Fair enough?

This is a very good suggestion -- though I would be inclined to look especially at Vos' Pauline eschatology (start with eschatology of the Psalter). Eschatological time is not about a succession of events (chronos), but a realisation of a goal (kairos). Blessings!
 
Originally posted by caddy
Can we List the Flagship Authors with their respective books for each:

1. Amil
2. Post Mil

That would be helpful

I would recommend the following works from the historic postmillennial perspective:

Loraine Boettner, The Millennium
J. Marcellus Kik, An Eschatology of Victory
Iain Murray, The Puritan Hope
William Symington, Messiah the Prince

See also this thread.
 
Originally posted by Barnpreacher
To my Amill and Postmill brothers,

I'm asking this question to get your dialogue and perspective on things. When someone takes a different theological or eschatological stance than I do I like to know why they believe what they believe. And pray the Lord could use it to help me if I'm in error on some point in my doctrine, or vice-versa.


My question is this: How do you take such passages as Ezekiel 40-48, Zechariah 13-14, Joel 3, Isaiah 24-27, Luke 1:32-33, and much of Revelation from a figurative sense? God spends so much time making it clear that in "this day" or "that day" he is going to "gather the nations together", "restore the remnant", etc.

He gets so specific with these passages, what's the point from an amill or postmill perspective? Why spend nine chapters in Ezekiel talking about a temple? (BTW - I don't believe that the sacrifices in the millennial kingdom have any redemptive value to them, just memorial.)

Why spend so much time talking about gathering the nations together at Jerusalem? Why talk about gathering them together into "a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon"?

So many things in O.T. books seem to be unfulfilled prophecy unless you take most of it figuratively. Why do you make the choice of taking most of the eschatological passages in the O.T. strictly from a figurative sense?

First rule of interpretation is to consider the original audience and intent of the author. The prophecies were uttered in terms that the people of that day could understand. They were trying to describe a greater reality to come using the vocabularly available to them. Second, Jesus clearly states that He is the subject of OT prophecy, not the Jewish nation (Luke. 24). Jesus claimed to be the temple. We're expressely told in Hebrews that Moses designed all the OT ceremonies based upon the pattern revealed to him by God. The OT tabernacle, temple, preisthood, etc. is expressely taught in the NT as figurative, pointing forward to the reality of Christ. The Church is called the Israel of God, a holy nation, royal preisthood, people of God, etc. Eph. 2:14, clearly teaches that the middle wall of partition is broken down between Jew and Gentile. There is no more distinction. All are one in Christ. Only in Christ are the promises fulfilled and granted. The hope and inheritance of the believing Jew and the believing Gentile is one and the same. Only in Christ are you included in the people of God. I would encourage you also to read Hebrews 11 carefully. Notice what the true hope of the Jews was, not a peace of real estate in Palestine, but a city who's builder andmaker is God and a better ressurection. They looked forward to the new heavens and earth (i.e. Isaiah, Revelation, etc.) not a rebuilt Palestine. Consider the eschatology of Paul, where is the millenial reign? How about Jesus? Where does he teach a millenial reign? Peter? Luke? Jude? John's gospel or epistles? Where is the literal 1000 year reign taught in the OT?
Why would we want to go back to the shadows? Wha't the purpose of a memorial sacrifice? Why would I want to look at a puny memorial when I can walk hand in hand with the reality? I don't mean to be overly ciritical of you personally here. I hope you understand that. I'm just trying to give you some more questions for your consideration. These are a good sample of the questions and observations with which Amil and Postmil folks approach the issue.

I second all the recommended reading thus far, particularly the Amil books :)


:2cents:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top