The American Flag: In Our Sanctuaries???

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ARStager

Puritan Board Freshman
I'm curious what you all think about the presence of the American flag...or, for that matter, the Christian flag, in our places of worship.

Should they be present? Why or why not?

I'm not sophistocated enough to set up a poll yet, but if someone is that savvy, please go right ahead.
 
And, additionally...how many of you have flags in your sanctuaries?

They are both in the church I'm currently attending...at the front corners.
 
I think it is a reflection of America's civil religion (as distinct from the Christian religion) that we find American flags in church buildings near the pulpit. Some also have "Christian flags." I find no warrant for either in Scripture. These are akin in my view to the English Popish Ceremonies and customs that Gillespie wrote about.
 
I disagree with the practice. I think they may fall under graven images. There is no such thing as a "christian" flag anyway, at least according to Scripture.
 
What about YOUR church, Patrick. It'd be interesting to find out the % of folks here who disagree with the practice, but yet find them present in their sanctuaries. It'd also be interesting to note the denominational breakdown of the have's and the have-not's
 
I don't accept the continuance of sanctuaries, altars, holy places, sacred space, and other shadows of things that have already come. That said, I do believe in the RPW. A national or regional flag or other banners have no Scriptural place in our worship of God, in my opinion. If we were to worship with our reformed brethren in an unauthorized church in China, I doubt we'd find a communist flag prominently displayed. When we gather for worship, we gather corporately under the unseen banner of the Lord. If I enter any reformed church, I expect to find no crosses, crucifixes, images of Christ or other icons, but the breaking of bread, prayer, preaching of the word, devotion to the apostle's teaching, and the teaching and admonishing of one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. Nothing added to Scripture. :2cents:
 
Originally posted by ARStager
What about YOUR church, Patrick. It'd be interesting to find out the % of folks here who disagree with the practice, but yet find them present in their sanctuaries. It'd also be interesting to note the denominational breakdown of the have's and the have-not's
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My last two reformed churches have not had the flags. I've been in very few reformed churches that do. I did visit one last week that had them. But the church we've been visiting most down here, and will probably stick with, does not have the flags posted.
 
We don't have an American flag in our sanctuary either. But that may be because we're Canadian. :D

In my home church, in the OPC, there is both a Canadian flag and a (I take it) Presbyterian flag. There are also four banners, as well as a picture of the Queen. But before you get the wrong idea, let me say that the building is rented from the PCC, and they don't like us moving things around or removing things just for our services. We have to put up with it. We use the building more than they do, but it belongs to them.

In the place where I am presently worshipping, there are no banners, no flags, no anything. Only the number boards and that big gigantic organ box.
 
Gregory.

I especially like your comments, and that's the way I see it, too---and I'm guessing that Patrick and Andrew are in agreement.

I might add that I see no essential problem with emblems of state, so long as they're not invoked (explicitly or implicitly) in worship in the Christian church. Aside from the idolatry they may present, there's an essential confusion of the two kingdoms. If you're going to have a city-planning meeting where your church meets for worship, on Wednesday night, and you want to bring in the flags and the city seal, go right ahead. Just don't put them there when the assembly gathers for worship.

I wonder what the rest of ya'll think of Gregory's comments about sacred space. How do we deal with that term--and is there a reformed and faithful sense in which sacred space is still real? Perhaps in their set-apart-ness? Like the bread and wine and water, and ink and paper, and for that matter, the vocal cords, intellects, etc. of the faithful being set apart from a common to an holy usage by virtue of the service?
 
I use to attend a church that had the American flag and the Christian flag at the front of the sanctuary. During opening exercises (before Sunday School) we'd pledge to the American flag and then to the Christian flag. It was a non-reformed baptist church. I wonder how common this practice is.
 
Originally posted by ARStager
... the faithful being set apart ...
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Bingo. We, corporately, are a royal and holy priesthood and the temple of the Holy Spirit. An interesting study to do for those who take the time is to count the number of holy things (places, objects, days) and holy persons (including the Holy Spirit) in the Old Testament and then do the same in the New Testament. Comparing the results is very telling.
 
Wow, the pledge during Sunday school!?

I remember thinking it was odd enough to pledge at this Christian school I substitute taught at. But then that's a murky subject too.
 
So what does one do to try and reform this ugly practice? My church was established before Napoleon took power, so something tells me that traditions die especially hard there.
 
Bob:

My general impression of Americans (Little House on the Prairie style Americanism, I suppose) is that being "one nation under God" they had no difficulty with a national flag in the place of worship. As a separation of powers, yes they had a thing about church and state; but as a people they were Christians and they were Americans under God. The church/state thing is now entirely different, after the "melting pot" times.
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The pledge is an aspect of that civil religion that I was referring to. It confounds national pride with Biblical religion.
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I agree. It has to go from our church assemblies. Not necessarily, I don't think, from our civic citizenship. Daniel said "O King, Live forever!", after all.
 
But I guess there IS a fine line between a pledge to a flag and worshipping the sign or the thing it signifies.
 
I have problems pledging allegiance to any flag under any circumstances. I also have problems with the wording and origin of the US pledge in particular. In any case, the church is not the place for such a ceremony.
 
Leslie's Banner is in the church I go to, right above the pulpit. I wonder about that.

I will not pledge my allegiance (and conscientously submit) to an Godless, unrighteous republic.
 
BTW, does anyone have a website I can go to to see this so-called "Christian flag"?
 
Originally posted by Peter
Leslie's Banner is in the church I go to, right above the pulpit. I wonder about that.

I will not pledge my allegiance (and conscientously submit) to an Godless, unrighteous republic.
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Man, you sound like a Covenanter! :up:
 
What do you think of having the banner right in the church? As a former RP, you must have encountered this. The banner presents the same problem as a flag, no?


[Edited on 11-1-2005 by Peter]
 
Originally posted by Peter
What do you think of having the banner right in the church? As a former RP, you must have encountered this. The banner presents the same problem as a flag, no?


[Edited on 11-1-2005 by Peter]
Click to expand...

Good question. I love the banner. I love the Covenanter slogan. I don't have the same problem with the banner as with the national (or "Christian" flag). That may be an inconsistency that I haven't fully worked out yet, but there it is.
 
I have no problem with soldiers taking an oath and fighting under a flag. But should the pledge be required of the civilain population?
Don't all banners become an icon if they are inserted in the place where the Kirk worships?
 
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