I've just read through what I hadn't read yet in this
long thread, and I have a few comments to make – so as to focus more tightly on what I see as the main issues, divested of extraneous matter..
Phil, I read what you said in post 50,
Though, to go back to your distinction between miracle and gift, what about the example of someone who did not claim to be a prophet, yet he believed to have received some sort of vision or what they took to be God speaking to them, say, to go and do x in place y? I'm not sure I can automatically rule out that such a thing can occur in the post apostolic era, and some missionaries have made such claims as these. I have to be convinced of cessationism to just automatically reject the claim, and I'm not.
This so expands the issue with hypothetical and anecdotal material as to make it impossible to really deal with what you are calling Cessationism. Where some may have "believed to have received some sort of vision or what they took to be God speaking to them, say, to go and do x in place y? I'm not sure I can automatically rule out that such a thing can occur in the post apostolic era, and some missionaries have made such claims as these". Yet this is the area in which you want to try the validity or not of the cessationist view? No wonder the thread has gone to 222+ posts, and is such a mess!
And no wonder
your argument against cessationism is extremely weak. The area for examination has been so set up by you as to make a reliable assessment beyond reach.
Nor would
I automatically rule out that some missionaries and others have "received some sort of vision or what they took to be God speaking to them". It is quite conceivable the Lord could send one of His "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb 1:14) to do this or that, or to flee a place that shall be destroyed in moments, etc.
Then you say, in post 101,
I can't say for certain that there are less miracles today or that they are drastically different. I just don't know. However, in the wikipedia article I linked to above you will see some of the post-Nicene Fathers claim that miracles seemed less frequent than in the early church. But surely the cessationist would require this to be 0 in the post-apostolic era (or 0 people with gifts of miracles/healings etc if we make that distinction).
Again, Phil, you stake out areas that are so indistinct, and unverifiable, and then
suppose "the cessationist would require this to be 0 in the post-apostolic era"!
First, you bring up "miracles", when it is clear that the term remains undefined in its usage here,
and that God can work apart from the laws of nature when He wills, often in answer to prayer. He has been healing and working His wonders – apart from normal providences – throughout the entire post-apostolic era! This cessationist (for such I am) would not require zero "miracles" in the early church.
As for the "people with gifts of miracles/healings etc if we make that distinction" – you and Jacob have sought to bring into the discussion here at a confessional Reformed & Presbyterian board some of the more extreme cotinuationists / charismatics as norms to be used to assess these things!
I can appreciate J.P. Moreland, and his church,
Dwelling Place Anaheim (formally, Vineyard Anaheim church) – as he seems to be a godly and respectable man. My first church, upon my conversion some 55 years ago, was an old holiness Pentecostal church, and I have at times been in charismatic churches up through the years to my great benefit,
but I hold that they seriously err in vision and in spirit, and are not to be brought into the precincts of this Reformed board.
Likewise with Michael L. Brown, and his theology and his church. I like the man, and have benefited greatly from his
Answering Jewish Questions series of books, and his other work on OT matters, but his views on spirituality are not such as are appropriate here. Do I really need to critique the charismatic field and its distinctives to make this point? Would it not be equivalent to bringing in Arminian and Pelagian – respectively – John Wesley and Charles G. Finney as exemplars of theological truths and their fine points? They may have some merit in some areas, yet both are alien to our doctrine and practice, and are unwelcome according to our confessional requirements here at PB. As are the outspoken continuationist men you seek to hold as exemplars here.
I can see godly people fasting and praying in their churches for healings, and the Lord granting their supplications. But the gift now as per its existence in the 1 cent. church, I do not see it, though I believe it could be as in the previous sentence.
Pastor Bruce's remarks in his
post #109, and Jacob's attempt at rebuttal in his
post #110, illustrate another important point (which pastor Bruce answers in
post #115 – as Rich
@Semper Fidelis does also in his later posts) : What is most crucial for the health of the body of Christ are the teaching and pastoral gifts of the undershepherds of the flock so as to bring the flocks into robust maturity of spiritual life and love spoken of in Ephesians 4:1-16. The health of the body, while significant and important, pales in comparison to its spiritual health and maturity. Spiritual health will sustain both persons and flocks when times of great darkness and calamity befall them or the wider society in general.
Gentlemen, in your thinking to support your anti-confessional views of gifts and extraordinary providences by bringing in the testimonies of men like Brown and Moreland – among others mentioned by you (albeit godly and respectable men, I gather) – you really do violate our own PB standards in these particular respects.
This is not a free-for-all generic evangelical board, but strictly Reformed, and these others are markedly not Reformed. We are not to be judged and assessed by their standards! I will repeat myself, Phil, and Jacob,
your arguments against cessationism are extremely weak,
apart from their inappropriateness here.
I do believe God heals today; I do believe He may send His angels to minister to – speak or otherwise assist – His children here. Our Saviour, who dearly loves us, may well bring extraordinary providences upon us. I believe that the Presence of our God manifested to our awareness by the Holy Spirit revealing Jesus Christ to us – filling us with the power and glory of His Person, strengthening us and giving us "the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him" (Eph 1:17) is greater than the lesser gift of some being healed.
I do not believe that the LORD, since the closing of the canon when the apostle John died, gives any further direct verbal revelation to individuals apart from His written word in the Bible. The Bible alone is the word of God. He surely does give us further revelation
through His extant word, but not apart from it. We are not to add to it.
I will not deny that He may give an individual a prophetic glimpse concerning one thing or another upon rare occasion. But the final word of the matter is this:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Tim 3:16, 17).