And the Reformed Confessions / Catechisms are much better in biblical understanding and teaching than what many of the evangelical schools are teaching today.
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The best theological age ---- is now!
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charliejunfan
Puritan Board Senior
I think the thing that makes the divines stand out is that any one of them could articulate almost as much alone as four of our current theologians put together.....hmmm, maybe that is a little stretch. They just had more eloquence in there presentation of what they knew, and what fashionable styles of dress! lol
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
But since you're from a Baptist background working with a largely Baptist group, how would you know what is revisionism and what isn't? {Edited by moderator: Too harsh.} King James authorized torture with witches in Scotland. Was he a Puritan? Or did have a particular hatred for Puritans? William and Mary were much more Reformed than any of the Stewards, but were there any witches burnt during their reign? Don't you think those are important questions? Have you really studied the matter or are you just passing on impressions you've been exposed to due to your Baptist environment?
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kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
Sorry, I had to laugh at this. So because they didn't have indoor plumbing, they weren't the theologians they could be. Because they did not have knowldege of the jet engine, they were somehow bereft of true theological clarity. Um...
What I do see in their lives is a dedication that is incredibly rare now. And surely we know that for every Owen whose words were committed to paper, there were five (or fifteen or even fifty) farmers in Cromwell's ranks who lived lives and catechised their households in a way that made some Divines look like libertines.
We often argue over points of Christian liberty now in a way that would suggest that we are straining at our Christ-applied fetters for some sort of secular freedom that we cannot find in Him. But put to many of these men (especially the unknowns) the answer would be simple: Why on earth would I want to play at bowls on the Sabbath while I could be contemplating Christ's glory/re-reading my favorite passage for the 99th time/delving into the catechism/singing psalms with my family? Why lose even a moment of that bliss? Can we not admit that such an attitude almost unheard of?
What's with all the accusations of King James hating? What's with the charges of me hating anyone?
The height of the European witch craze coincided with the Protestant Reformation (about 1550-1650 was the height of what many call "The Killing Times and many of the witch burnings were done in areas where Protestantism/Catholicism was contested). Since you have charged me with ignorance, know that I actually audited a course on witchcraft and have a copy of the classic The Malleus Maleficarum on my other computer. William and Mary took power about 30 years after 1650 I think and so they would have occurred after the height of the witch craze, and most witches were killed in Germany anyway, but we could start another thread about witch burnings and the Reformation if you would like.
turmeric
Megerator
Tim V. King James was not a puritan - he was the Temporal Head of the Anglican Church. He lived in the early part of the 17th Century. He was succeeded by King Charles I whose reign was interrupted by the English Civil War. William & Mary were Protestant (not Puritan) and were called in after James II was deposed for trying to restore the Anglican Church to the Roman Church. Protestants and Catholics burned suspected witches during this time.
MODERATOR NOTE: Let's not call each other ignorant, particularly because of being Baptist - that's uncharitable. Ignorance does not reside in the credo- or paedobaptist tradition. MODERATOR OFF
MODERATOR NOTE: Let's not call each other ignorant, particularly because of being Baptist - that's uncharitable. Ignorance does not reside in the credo- or paedobaptist tradition. MODERATOR OFF
Interesting. If you have a moment, would you please list, in your opinion, the best of "our scholars". Just curious.
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
King James was not a Puritan, but he reigned during the time of the Reformation. You said people on the PB are often revisionist. You are mixing things up. You are doing the equivalent of saying that since there was a spike in Jew killing during WW2 and since the US was part of WW2 Americans were part of a spike in Jew killings.
You are still doing it.
I don't know if it's ignorance. Or bearding the lion. Or what. I trust you know that the Malleus Maleficarum was written by Catholics. Perhaps you could connect the dots.
I have a copy of a book written my Catholics that contributed to burning witches
The book was written during the time of the Reformation.
Many PBers are revisionist because they don't realise many witches were burnt during the time of the Reformation.
Therefore PBers should not be so proud of Puritan theolgians
Do I have that right?
Spinningplates2
Puritan Board Freshman
.... Could you please tell me when there has been less "errant theology." Please help me, because I would love to study that time period. I don't think it is fair to Pergamum for people to say, "I don't know when but I know it's not now."
.... After the Revolution in 1690 until the challenge to Calvinist orthodoxy in the 19th century, these were the accepted standards of Presbyterianism.
Thank you, for your response. I can see how that time period could be seen as a Golden Age. My reasons for thinking this age is the best have only been based on advancements in Creation Science and what I see a more proof for a Creator.
I love your answer armourbearer and honor the memory of those great men and women.
TheFleshProfitethNothing
Puritan Board Freshman
One should be careful in what they call "the church". There are many including myself that believe we are in "the great falling away" (or Great Apostasy). But, I will limit my self to that general statement, and most likely will not respond to any questions to it.
Just throwing that out that perhaps people might give it some serious thought.
Just throwing that out that perhaps people might give it some serious thought.
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
I think that it is very difficult to seperate theology from the state of the Church as it is the Church that is the vessel through which "good" theology is recognised. It is very hard now to develop theology as it is very difficult to envisage the Church being in a position to exercise its office in this respect.
It is this aspect of independancy which is problematic as while confessionalism can allow such congregations to function as a part of the Church it hinders the proper development of theology. Even in presbyterian circles the denominations are so fragmented that in reality we have independant denominations rather than independant congregations. The puritans managed to address this problem by having a high view of the visible Church, even in the midst of independancy, a view which is no longer popular in the bulk of Christendom.
It is this aspect of independancy which is problematic as while confessionalism can allow such congregations to function as a part of the Church it hinders the proper development of theology. Even in presbyterian circles the denominations are so fragmented that in reality we have independant denominations rather than independant congregations. The puritans managed to address this problem by having a high view of the visible Church, even in the midst of independancy, a view which is no longer popular in the bulk of Christendom.
The Protestants killed their fair share too. In fact, Germany was the area of the most witch-killings. Wherever "Christendom" was most divided between Protestant and Catholic is where the most folks were accused of witchery.
My point is valid:
That there is something in man's psyche that makes him especially prone in idealizing the past and only remembering the good.
Man is psychologically predisposed to believing in past Golden Ages...
.... but I say that the best time to be a Christian is now and there are more Christians than ever before and that tiny Mustard Seed is growing to be the bigget tree in the whole world.
We are in an age where there are not only the most Christians, but Christians in the most nations (one instance where multiculturalism is a good thing and a qualitative advance), where we can benefit from the age of the Puritans and even go further than them by standing on their shoulders, where we have excelled in linguistics, manuscripts and the background data of the bible and where some of our finest theologians have written commentaries that rival anything written in the past.
Just imagine old Johnny Calvin's face if we resurrected him, gave him an IPOD and stuck him in New York City!
No, I think you are right - medical and science advances are not the same as theological advance.
Instead of appearing before the Queen maybe John Know could have just sent her an SMS and William Ferel could have just slashed Calvin's tires instead of putting him under a curse if he didn't stay in Geneva. Luther at Worms could have worn a flak jacket and Tetzel could have his own tv station (TBN - the Tetzel Broadcasting Network).....
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
That doesn't even rise to the level of nice try. You started this thread talking about the "divines" i.e. those Calvinistic scholars who put together the WCF. No one here is interested in excusing Catholics and Lutherans. Even today in Europe, people use the word Reformed to distinguish between themselves and Catholics and Lutherans.
If you listened to the wisdom of Solomon in Ecclesiastes, he only mentions my perspective of not looking for any "good ol' days"
And if you are a potmil beleiver than there is a theological argument for the advance of the church as well.
Let's get back to the main point. I only mentioned witch-killings in passing. We can start another thread about witches and the Reformation if you would like.
Spinningplates2
Puritan Board Freshman
There is no honest comparison to Protestant and Roman Catholic crimes. To make a comparison is to deny history. To compare anything the Puritans, as a whole, did to the Roman Catholic Church is a insult to logic, as well as to the men and women who are our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
I thought we were getting back to the point, but let it be known that which killings were greatest where there was the greatest conflict between the Reformed (including Lutherans) and the Catholics. Scapegoating occurred when religious tensions erupted the fiercest.
1484, Pope Innocent VIII published bull "Summis Desidrantes Affectibus' something like "with deepest anxiety". The Malleus Maleficarum, Hammer of the Witches, came out maybe 2 years later. But the Protestants were also involved. A little later King James the I, wrote not only a little tract against tobacco but also the Deamonologie against witches.
The Witch Craze in Germany, Switzerland, France, Poland and Scotland were more severe than Ireland and homogeneously Catholic lands such as Italy.
In 1661 Scottish royalists proclaimed that "Rebellion is the mother of witchcraft."
English Puritan William Perkins wrote the Discourse of the Damned Art of Witchcraft and called the witch "The most notorious traytor and rebell that can be..."
So, not only in Catholic lands but in Protestant as well, the Witch Craze were a big thing and many of our brothers and sisters in Christ believed in witches, tacitly allowed their persecution or took part in them. Some also fought against it and spoke out against the witch craze as well...
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