The Biblical Offer of the Gospel

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This is a good point to ponder brother. The grounds are the promises, or as the Marrow would say the "that Jesus Christ is the Father's deed of gift and grant unto all mankind lost". Find out what was meant by this and yo have found the gospel offer.


So, pastor Lewis, you would say God saves everyone?
 
So, pastor Lewis, you would say God saves everyone?

No. Neither did Calvin or the MM. Read Boston's note along with the MMD and then see what you make of the phrase. Far too many critics of the MM have never read but scattered quotes of the book, and therefor are not good judges of the conclusion. It is one of those works that if you do not read it all you will leave confused. This is because it was fighting against a certian kind of neonominaism.
 
Absolutely!

Matthew 22:1-14 "And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."

So you would agree then that this invitation is made to all regardless of their status as elect or reprobate?
 
Originally Posted by JOwen
This is a good point to ponder brother. The grounds are the promises, or as the Marrow would say the "that Jesus Christ is the Father's deed of gift and grant unto all mankind lost". Find out what was meant by this and yo have found the gospel offer.

So, pastor Lewis, you would say God saves everyone?

No. Neither did Calvin or the MM. Read Boston's note along with the MMD and then see what you make of the phrase. Far too many critics of the MM have never read but scattered quotes of the book, and therefor are not good judges of the conclusion. It is one of those works that if you do not read it all you will leave confused. This is because it was fighting against a certian kind of neonominaism.

OK, let's take this one step at a time, as I am only a pretend theologian, not a minister of the Gospel. Pretend I am sitting in your catechism class

And we will leave Calvin out of this, since in Calvin's day there was no doctrinal issue of the welmeant offer of grace considered. So let us not put words in his mouth.

Just trying to follow your train of thought. So far we have concluded that you say that Christ is the Father's deed of gift and grant unto all mankind lost, yet you say that God does not save everyone. So you must be saying God's grace is resistible, as you say that God desires everyone's salvation, but not everyone is saved. Do I follow you correctly so far?
 
So, pastor Lewis, you would say God saves everyone?

I would encourage you to read them in context brother. No one is saying God saves everyone. So I encourage you to stop using that straw man and perhaps try to understand these ministers in their context. You may find more in common with these brothers in Christ than you realize.

By gift or grant, Boston (and Fisher) are refering to the public invitation for sinners to come to the only Savior. Read Boston's notes here in the Marrow. He explains this from the picture Jesus uses of himself in John 3:14-15, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." Jesus has been given by the Father to lost mankind (the 'world' in John 3:16) as the only object of saving faith, the only remedy for sin. This wasn't a secret gift but a public gift (like the serpent) for all mankind to see, hear, and respond. There is no other Savior. All men need a Savior if they would have life, whether they be elect or reprobate. God has only provided one. This is what the Marrow Men meant by gift or grant to lost mankind.

This is what they meant by "Christ is dead for you." It was not an Amyraldian view of atonement. They simply argued that Jesus Christ has been crucified for sinners and appeased the wrath of God. You would agree correct? If you wish to flee the wrath to come then you must flee to Him. Correct? There is no where else to go. Right? There can only be free and full forgiveness by coming to Christ, correct? This truth of man's sinful condition and need is universal, correct? I trust you still believe in total depravity? Regardless of election, the solution to that universal need can only be found in coming to Christ. Correct? And in lifting Christ up before "whoever," God is making a public invitation for needy sinners to either receive or reject. This is what we mean by free offer. Who the elect and reprobate are is not our concern. The secret things belong to the Lord. The Spirit will cause the elect to respond to the offer. But we must still make the offer to all who have need of the Savior, which is everyone.

If a sinner comes to you and says "What must I to be saved?" Then I imagine you are not going to request he show you his elect membership card before you show him the way. Instead you would point him to Christ and say (with AV1611 above) "Believe on Jesus! He's is the only Savior for lost sinners." And if that is how you would respond, then welcome to the free offer! You believe it whether you like the terminology or not.
:2cents:
 
Just trying to follow your train of thought. So far we have concluded that you say that Christ is the Father's deed of gift and grant unto all mankind lost, yet you say that God does not save everyone. So you must be saying God's grace is resistible, as you say that God desires everyone's salvation, but not everyone is saved. Do I follow you correctly so far?

Not at all brother. The grace of God is irresistible. Also I never EVER said that God desires the salvation of everyone. Read Boston Bert, along with the Marrow of Modern Divinity.
They we will talk again.

Blessings.
 
This is what they meant by "Christ is dead for you." It was not an Amyraldian view of atonement. They simply argued that Jesus Christ has been crucified for sinners and appeased the wrath of God. You would agree correct? If you wish to flee the wrath to come then you must flee to Him. Correct? There is no where else to go. Right? There can only be free and full forgiveness by coming to Christ, correct? This truth of man's sinful condition and need is universal, correct? I trust you still believe in total depravity? Regardless of election, the solution to that universal need can only be found in coming to Christ. Correct? And in lifting Christ up before "whoever," God is making a public invitation for needy sinners to either receive or reject. This is what we mean by free offer. Who the elect and reprobate are is not our concern. The secret things belong to the Lord. The Spirit will cause the elect to respond to the offer. But we must still make the offer to all who have need of the Savior, which is everyone.

If a sinner comes to you and says "What must I to be saved?" Then I imagine you are not going to request he show you his elect membership card before you show him the way. Instead you would point him to Christ and say (with AV1611 above) "Believe on Jesus! He's is the only Savior for lost sinners." And if that is how you would respond, then welcome to the free offer! You believe it whether you like the terminology or not.
:2cents:

And the reason I don't like the word offer, is as you yourself say, we are, by nature, totally depraved and, without the quickening of the Spirit, are dead and cannot accept any offer. Man, in the natural state, does not want anything to do with Christ.

By the way, minimizing election and reprobation is a classic arminian tactic. Do not recommend you to use that. The apostle Paul, for instance, spend a lot of time on election. And he never said for us not to be concerned with election.
 
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Originally Posted by JOwen
This is a good point to ponder brother. The grounds are the promises, or as the Marrow would say the "that Jesus Christ is the Father's deed of gift and grant unto all mankind lost". Find out what was meant by this and yo have found the gospel offer.

So, pastor Lewis, you would say God saves everyone?



OK, let's take this one step at a time, as I am only a pretend theologian, not a minister of the Gospel. Pretend I am sitting in your catechism class

And we will leave Calvin out of this, since in Calvin's day there was no doctrinal issue of the welmeant offer of grace considered. So let us not put words in his mouth.

Just trying to follow your train of thought. So far we have concluded that you say that Christ is the Father's deed of gift and grant unto all mankind lost, yet you say that God does not save everyone. So you must be saying God's grace is resistible, as you say that God desires everyone's salvation, but not everyone is saved. Do I follow you correctly so far?

Not at all brother. The grace of God is irresistible. Also I never EVER said that God desires the salvation of everyone. Read Boston Bert, along with the Marrow of Modern Divinity.
They we will talk again.

ok, so you believe that grace is irresistible. So do I. And you believe in limited atonement. So do I.

But this does not follow. We cannot resist grace. So if grace is offered to us all, that would mean we are all saved, no?
 
ok, so you believe that grace is irresistible. So do I. And you believe in limited atonement. So do I.

But this does not follow. We cannot resist grace. So if grace is offered to us all, that would mean we are all saved, no?

Did I say that grace was offered? I don't think I have ever used those words. I think I see now where you are misunderstanding me. Having looked over your previous posts in some detail I find you repeatedly insist that the free offer of the Gospel is the offer of grace. This is not so. We proclaim and offer the Gospel to all and sundry, but grace is given only to the elect. The Free Offer is to man as sinner, but grace, being irresistible is a work of the Holy Spirit inwardly and savingly.
 
And the reason I don't like the word offer, is as you yourself say, we are, by nature, totally depraved and, without the quickening of the Spirit, are dead and cannot accept any offer. Man, in the natural state, does not want anything to do with Christ.
But this doesn't stop God from offering. It is through the offer that He effectually calls the elect. You shouldn't be paranoid about being arminian because of the language. Jesus is lifted up before all to be the object of salvation for siners. What is arminian about that? I would suggest you look for actual arminian substance in the Marrow men, not arminian sounding phrases. The Arminians hijacked our Reformed language. I will not flee from it but take it back for Christ.

By the way, minimizing election and reprobation is a classic arminian tactic. Do not recommend you to use that. The apostle Paul, for instance, spend a lot of time on election. And he never said for us not to be concerned with election.

I can downplay election in the offer because Jesus and Paul do. That does not mean I don't hold to it ro don't teach it. I defend it because they defend it. The offer of salvation is based upon God's invitation and man's need. It means that when I tell people to go to Christ they are to go to him because Christ invites them, not because they can know they are elect or not. If I am preaching and offering Christ the way Christ himself does and the apostles after him, then I have no fear of being Arminian, and neither should you.
 
Did I say that grace was offered? I don't think I have ever used those words. I think I see now where you are misunderstanding me. Having looked over your previous posts in some detail I find you repeatedly insist that the free offer of the Gospel is the offer of grace. This is not so. We proclaim and offer the Gospel to all and sundry, but grace is given only to the elect. The Free Offer is to man as sinner, but grace, being irresistible is a work of the Holy Spirit inwardly and savingly.

Glad we get that straight! Thus to sum up:

When you of your pulpit proclaim the Gospel, you are not making a welmeant offer of grace to every hearer.

The call of the Gospel, to everyone without exception, is to repent and believe. But the call of the Gospel, from what you say above here, is an outward calling, not the efficacious internal calling of the Spirit in our heart.

This is just what we believe. So how does your church differ from our church?
 
But this doesn't stop God from offering. It is through the offer that He effectually calls the elect. You shouldn't be paranoid about being arminian because of the language. Jesus is lifted up before all to be the object of salvation for siners. What is arminian about that? I would suggest you look for actual arminian substance in the Marrow men, not arminian sounding phrases. The Arminians hijacked our Reformed language. I will not flee from it but take it back for Christ.

I can downplay election in the offer because Jesus and Paul do. That does not mean I don't hold to it ro don't teach it. I defend it because they defend it. The offer of salvation is based upon God's invitation and man's need. It means that when I tell people to go to Christ they are to go to him because Christ invites them, not because they can know they are elect or not. If I am preaching and offering Christ the way Christ himself does and the apostles after him, then I have no fear of being Arminian, and neither should you.

Whoa there Sailor! So pretend I am a seeker on your ship. You have been teaching me all about total depravity. So I understand I am a dead sinner. Now you tell me that Christ is dead for me, and offers me His grace.

Then I come to you with the question: That is fine and dandy that Christ is offering me His grace, but how do I appropriate it, since I am a dead sinner, and cannot add even a sigh to my salvation?
 
Whoa there Sailor! So pretend I am a seeker on your ship. You have been teaching me all about total depravity. So I understand I am a dead sinner. Now you tell me that Christ is dead for me, and offers me His grace.

Then I come to you with the question: That is fine and dandy that Christ is offering me His grace, but how do I appropriate it, since I am a dead sinner, and cannot add even a sigh to my salvation?

You appropriate it by faith. You must believe on Christ and trust Him alone to save you. None who go to him will be cast out. You can trust His promise to receive you or you can call God a liar and deny that Christ can save you. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
 
You appropriate it by faith. You must believe on Christ and trust Him alone to save you. None who go to him will be cast out. You can trust His promise to receive you or you can call God a liar and deny that Christ can save you. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

"But you just taught me I am a dead sinner. How can a dead sinner believe. I don't have faith, and so I cannot come to Christ in faith"
 
No you can't. But you must believe. You have no where else to go so go to Him. Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved. His Spirit can enable you to believe. Cast yourself before him and cry out for that saving faith which only he can grant. Plead to God for mercy and cry out to the only Savior whom God has provided you. And understand that when such faith is granted to you, rejoice that such is the sovereign work of the Spirit and not yourself and that Christ has received you just as He promised.
 
Patrick and Bert,

Forgive my intrusion, but these are some thoughts I had while reading this thread.

The gospel says that all who come to Christ by faith will be saved.

The gospel says only the elect whom God chose in Christ will be saved.

The gospel says that only the elect will come to Christ by faith.

So when a preacher presents the gospel and calls upon men to come to Christ, though the external call goes out to everyone, internally the call is only for the elect, as only the elect would every answer the call in a meaningful way. So when a preacher calls for men to repent and trust the gospel, he is by necessity calling only those regenerate elect persons in the audience. Anyone else would never answer the call and would gain no benefit from the call.

However, it is still true that all who come to Christ will be saved, for only the elect who have been born again by the Spirit will come to Christ. It seems to me, though, that the apostles when performing initial conversions, did not worry too much about telling men they were spiritually dead and unable to understand the gospel without regeneration. What was important to them was that men recognised their sin and their need for a savior. When dealing with unbelievers in need of initial gospel conversion, the apostles seemed quite happy to simply present the gospel as 'Believe on Christ and you will be saved'. They would not, I am sure, have shyed away from teaching about election, but understanding the mechanics of how total depravity relates to regeneration and the ability to understand the gospel is not necessary for initial conversion. I believe making certain of your election comes after that, as per 2 Peter 1 which tells believers to add certain things to their faith in order to make their calling and election sure.
 
No you can't. But you must believe. You have no where else to go so go to Him. Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved. His Spirit can enable you to believe. Cast yourself before him and cry out for that saving faith which only he can grant. Plead to God for mercy and cry out to the only Savior whom God has provided you. And understand that when such faith is granted to you, rejoice that such is the sovereign work of the Spirit and not yourself and that Christ has received you just as He promised.


"Just as I thought. So Christ is not offered. You are contradicting yourself. As you say, I need His Spirit to work faith in me."

So you can keep your worthless offer. Instead I will rely on the free grace that God will work in my heart, through the preaching of the Gospel. As our Canons so beautifully teach us:

Article 8. As many as are called by the gospel, are unfeignedly called. For God hath most earnestly and truly shown in his Word, what is pleasing to him, namely, that those who are called should come to him. He, moreover, seriously promises eternal life, and rest, to as many as shall come to him, and believe on him.

Article 9. It is not the fault of the gospel, nor of Christ, offered therein, nor of God, who calls men by the gospel, and confers upon them various gifts, that those who are called by the ministry of the word, refuse to come, and be converted: the fault lies in themselves; some of whom when called, regardless of their danger, reject the word of life; others, though they receive it, suffer it not to make a lasting impression on their heart; therefore, their joy, arising only from a temporary faith, soon vanishes, and they fall away; while others choke the seed of the word by perplexing cares, and the pleasures of this world, and produce no fruit. - This our Savior teaches in the parable of the sower. Matthew 13.

Article 10. But that others who are called by the gospel, obey the call, and are converted, is not to be ascribed to the proper exercise of free will, whereby one distinguishes himself above others, equally furnished with grace sufficient for faith and conversions, as the proud heresy of Pelagius maintains; but it must be wholly ascribed to God, who as he has chosen his own from eternity in Christ, so he confers upon them faith and repentance, rescues them from the power of darkness, and translates them into the kingdom of his own Son, that they may show forth the praises of him, who hath called them out of darkness into his marvelous light; and may glory not in themselves, but in the Lord according to the testimony of the apostles in various places.

Article 11. But when God accomplishes his good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, he not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illumines their minds by his Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit, pervades the inmost recesses of the man; he opens the closed, and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised, infuses new qualities into the will, which though heretofore dead, he quickens; from being evil, disobedient and refractory, he renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions.

Article 12. And this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation, or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the author of this work declares; so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. - Whereupon the will thus renewed, is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence, becomes itself active. Wherefore also, man is himself rightly said to believe and repent, by virtue of that grace received.

Article 13. The manner of this operation cannot be fully comprehended by believers in this life. Notwithstanding which, they rest satisfied with knowing and experiencing, that by this grace of God they are enabled to believe with the heart, and love their Savior.
 
"Just as I thought. So Christ is not offered. You are contradicting yourself. As you say, I need His Spirit to work faith in me."

So you can keep your worthless offer. Instead I will rely on the free grace that God will work in my heart, through the preaching of the Gospel. As our Canons so beautifully teach us:

I have no clue what you are objecting to. I completely agree with teh articels quoted and so would the Marrow men. What I said is sharing the gospel in practical daily terms. How would you respond to the same question?

Just as Lazuras could not rise without Jesus giving him power to respond to his command, so the imperative to believe goes forth from the preachers of Christ and Jesus enables them to respond. Its really quite simple. We proclaim the good news and demand a response from men, and Jesus enables response. I think you are just picking a fight because you don't want to admit that perhaps your understanding of the Marrow men is wrong.
 
Glad we get that straight! Thus to sum up:

When you of your pulpit proclaim the Gospel, you are not making a welmeant offer of grace to every hearer.

The call of the Gospel, to everyone without exception, is to repent and believe. But the call of the Gospel, from what you say above here, is an outward calling, not the efficacious internal calling of the Spirit in our heart.

This is just what we believe. So how does your church differ from our church?

To sum us: When I preach the fullness of Christ from the pulpit, I preach the free offer of salvation to all sinners as sinners. A rich Christ for poor sinners. If you can live with that, you have no problem with the Marrow Men, or me.

The difference, I believe between your Church and mine is we preach the free offer, general call, the well meant offer (whatever name you wish to give it), and the PRC does couches its presentation within election.

Here are a few other differences:
We believe in the Covenant of Works
We believe in an internal and external Covenant of Grace.
We do not believe in the eternal justification of the elect, but the elect are under eternal wrath until the time of conversion.
We believe in Common Love (general benevolence, general love etc).
 
However, it is still true that all who come to Christ will be saved, for only the elect who have been born again by the Spirit will come to Christ. It seems to me, though, that the apostles when performing initial conversions, did not worry too much about telling men they were spiritually dead and unable to understand the gospel without regeneration. What was important to them was that men recognised their sin and their need for a savior. When dealing with unbelievers in need of initial gospel conversion, the apostles seemed quite happy to simply present the gospel as 'Believe on Christ and you will be saved'. They would not, I am sure, have shyed away from teaching about election, but understanding the mechanics of how total depravity relates to regeneration and the ability to understand the gospel is not necessary for initial conversion. I believe making certain of your election comes after that, as per 2 Peter 1 which tells believers to add certain things to their faith in order to make their calling and election sure.

Exactly. We don't convert anyone. We are only messengers making Christ known. God converts sinners and enables the response. If someone objects that they are unable, I can only respond that there is only One who can make you able, you must go to Him. And he has given a promise that he will receive you if you come. If they still complain then they are just fishing for an excuse not to believe the promises of God and must be left to wallow in the slough of despond a little longer until God brings them to conversion.
 
Patrick and Bert,

Forgive my intrusion, but these are some thoughts I had while reading this thread.

The gospel says that all who come to Christ by faith will be saved.

The gospel says only the elect whom God chose in Christ will be saved.

The gospel says that only the elect will come to Christ by faith.

So when a preacher presents the gospel and calls upon men to come to Christ, though the external call goes out to everyone, internally the call is only for the elect, as only the elect would every answer the call in a meaningful way. So when a preacher calls for men to repent and trust the gospel, he is by necessity calling only those regenerate elect persons in the audience. Anyone else would never answer the call and would gain no benefit from the call.

:agree:
 
A. The invitation is proclaimed to all. (all hear it)
B. The invitation is however directed to the elect.(the elect respond)

Directed or efficacious?

There are two types of call; the inward and the outward. The outward is to everyone and efficacious to no one unless accompanied by the inward. The inward is only efficacious to the elect.
 
A. The invitation is proclaimed to all. (all hear it)
B. The invitation is however directed to the elect.(the elect respond)

How do you direct the invitation to the elect and all at the same time? Do you mean it is effectual to only the elect? I'm just curious how you see this working in every day life.
 
How do you direct the invitation to the elect and all at the same time? Do you mean it is effectual to only the elect? I'm just curious how you see this working in every day life.

the Gospel is a two edged sword. As the Scripture teaches, a savour of life to life, and a savour of death to death.
 
How do you direct the invitation to the elect and all at the same time? Do you mean it is effectual to only the elect? I'm just curious how you see this working in every day life.

Directed or efficacious?

There are two types of call; the inward and the outward. The outward is to everyone and efficacious to no one unless accompanied by the inward. The inward is only efficacious to the elect.

Patrick and Scott,

1. Matthew 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." In this verse the call of Christ is to "all ye that labour and are heavy laden" and it is to them the promise of rest is made. The promise is for the elect, however the call is heard by both reprobate and elect. So the call of "Come unto me" is heard by all (is general) but is directed unto the "all ye that labour and are heavy laden". The promise of rest is then directed towards the elect alone although here we find God making known what is "pleasing to him, namely, that those who are called should come to him."

2. God's promise, whilst made know to all, is only for the elect: So Canons II, 5 states "Moreover, the promise of the gospel is, that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of his good pleasure sends the gospel."

3. I find Canons III/IV, 8 most helpful:

"As many as are called by the gospel, are unfeignedly called. For God hath most earnestly and truly shown in his Word, what is pleasing to him, namely, that those who are called should come to him."

In the preaching of the gospel God makes known to all his will of command i.e. "that those who are called should come to him." Further, the promise of God is to the elect only, hence the Article continues saying that God "seriously promises eternal life, and rest, to as many as shall come to him, and believe on him."

Hope this clears things up.

Try reading this.
 
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