The Christian And The Theater

[AV1611]

I found this to be rather powerful, from Tertullian's De Spectaculis, which AV linked to above.

Chapter 29

Even as things are, if your thought is to spend this period of existence in enjoyments, how are you so ungrateful as to reckon insufficient, as not thankfully to recognize the many and exquisite pleasures God has bestowed upon you? For what more delightful than to have God the Father and our Lord at peace with us, than revelation of the truth, than confession of our errors, than pardon of the innumerable sins of our past life? What greater pleasure than distaste of pleasure itself, contempt of all that the world can give, true liberty, a pure conscience, a contented life, and freedom from all fear of death? What nobler than to tread under foot the gods of the nations—to exorcise evil spirits—to perform cures—to seek divine revealings—to live to God? These are the pleasures, these the spectacles that befit Christian men—holy, everlasting, free. Count of these as your circus games, fix your eyes on the courses of the world, the gliding seasons, reckon up the periods of time, long for the goal of the final consummation, defend the societies of the churches, be startled at God's signal, be roused up at the angel's trump, glory in the palms of martyrdom. If the literature of the stage delight you, we have literature in abundance of our own—plenty of verses, sentences, songs, proverbs; and these not fabulous, but true; not tricks of art, but plain realities. Would you have also fightings and wrestlings? Well, of these there is no lacking, and they are not of slight account. Behold unchastity overcome by chastity, perfidy slain by faithfulness, cruelty stricken by compassion, impudence thrown into the shade by modesty: these are the contests we have among us, and in these we win our crowns. Would you have something of blood too? You have Christ's.

 

[kvanlaan]

My point is starting this thread was to try and get us to re-examine our entertainment habits. We let so much filth into our home via the T.V. set and video's that we have become desensitized to sin and unbiblical worldviews. The whole study has led me to be ever more vigilant in stopping unchristian entertainment and views outside the door of my house and before they make it in. I may have to put up with it in the work place but it does not need to be in my home.

Some say that there are good shows on the tube and I don't know that I can totally disagree. BUT even the best of them has wee bites of Satan scattered between them in the form of commercials. I know I posted this somewhere before but on our recent trip to Hawaii we saw our first commericals in more than a few years and had to keep my daughter's eyes turned away - it was simply filth. And that was on the Discovery Channel!

I don't know that I'd walk a 500-acre minefield on the chance that I may smell one rose planted in the center thereof, it's just not worth it.

Our video collection is shrinking - there is no film that we've found of late that does not take the Lord's name in vain at least a few times. And every time I hear it, it comes to me that I am paying people with my own hand to blaspheme the name of the Lord. Sick.

 

[Covenant Joel]

Indeed but that is not what your normal self-justifying natural man thinks. This however is simply a tertiary concern for the more pressing issue is whether we should be watching drama in the first place.

Agree to disagre...it's good to focus on the bigger issue probably anyway.

I do not think that an unbiblical worldview necessarily makes a movie forbidden to the Christian--we should be discerning enough and rooted enough in Scripture to identify those for what they are, and reject the ideas, while still enjoying a form of entertainment which is nonetheless well done and therefore indicative of God's common grace.

A drama founded upon an unbiblical world-view is not going to promote good. Can a lepard change his spots, can good fruit come from a bad tree etc etc.[/quote]

Granted, an unbiblical worldview is not in and of itself going to promote good. Thus we watch discerningly, identifying that worldview for what is, and rejecting it, so that we are in the world, but not of it. Should I read a book such as "The God Delusion" in order to understand a non-Christian's arguments? If so, that is the same thing, and we read discerningly with Biblical lenses. If not, then you would appear to be arguing for more than just abstention from drama, but also any contact with ideas contrary to Scripture.

The doctrine of common grace is a lie propagated by Abraham Kuyper. It has no foundation, absolutely none, upon the word of God. The ploughing of the wicked is sin. Every act that the wicked man does is sinful. He is unable to do good and God's wrath rests upon the fruit of their labour.

Well, I guess we're coming at this from some different perspectives. Just a few quick thoughts on that...I'm not disagreeing that every act that the wicked man does is sinful. Anything not done to the glory of God is sinful. But that doesn't mean you are not going to appreciate very much the skilled hands of a non-Christian surgeon who is operating on you. Is he doing it to the glory of God? No. Is it therefore sin? Yes. Does that mean we cannot appreciate it and even say that it reflects the image and glory of God in man, however marred and tainted it may be with sin? No. I believe a similar principle applies in the arts.

On first glance, yes but what of the prinicple. The principle is that you would be pretenting to be someone you are not. That is a lie and is under the wrath of God.

How is that a lie? I don't get that point, which is the foundation of your argument. I see now that you get into this below, so I will hold my remarks till then.

From the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Question 143: Which is the ninth commandment?
Answer: The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Question 144: What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
Answer: The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things: Whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for, and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requires; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of: Whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.

Question 145: What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence, suborning false witnesses, wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence, calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery, concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calls for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful and equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice; speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, tale bearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vainglorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults; hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession; unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumors, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defense; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any, endeavoring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt, fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report, and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering: What we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.​

You are lying to them.

I read through that whole thing, and I see nothing that speaks to drama, or that would categorize it as lying.

"Drama is, by definition, the presentation of the life of another person, whether real or fictitious, by the assumption of that person's personality for purposes of entertainment. The key point here is that drama is possible only by assuming another's personality. Any textbook on drama will emphasize this. The "gifted" actor is the person who is able to suppress completely his own personality and assume the personality of another. The more he is able to do this, the better actor he is. He must, to be successful, assume to himself all the thoughts, all the desires, all the emotions, all the feelings of the person whose role he plays. He must, as much as he can, make himself that person. He must make himself feel as that person feels, think as that person thinks. He must, so to speak, crawl behind the skin of that man and get into his bones and marrow to lay hold of that person in the very depths of his being. He must put himself deeply inside that person so that he looks through the person's eyes, down that person's nose, and experiences all that that person feels and thinks....

I just don't see a problem with that.

In the second place, the sin of this can be demonstrated by means of another consideration. All will have to agree that in assuming another personality there are only two possibilities. The one possibility is that of assuming the personality of a sinner. But if an actor assumes the personality of a sinner, he must, in the nature of the case, assume all that person's sin. He must think his evil thoughts, experience his evil emotions, will his evil desires, speak his evil words, and do his evil deeds. He must assume all those sins and make them his own in a very deep and intense way."

While that might be possible, I don't think that has to be the case. I don't think that is something you can prove, nor that I can disprove, thus making it a rather moot point.

Moreover, should the acts of these historical figures be played out? Who wants to see the incest of Nero pretend or otherwise? Who wants to see marriage scorned? To laugh at such things is to sin.

Should we not even read about such things then? Then you better not read the Bible. and if marriage is scorned and laughed about, perhaps that is not a movie you should see. Even if it was, you do not have to laugh at such things. Again, everything must be viewed from a biblical perspective.

I trust you will in time

Hehe...I would say likewise, but if you are content in not viewing drama, I'm certainly not going to try to personally get you to do it. My only concern is that with this kind of thinking, we just begin to remove ourselves from the world entirely and forget about applying the gospel to every area of life.

[/quote]I would simply urge you, when you next feel the need for a fix of movie, to stop and do something wholesome with that time, sanctify your time brother. Blessings shall abound for sure.[/quote]

That is an admonition which I will take to heart (though I will still see some, because I think some can be a wholesome way to spend time)....though that is an entirely different reason than saying that drama itself is sin.

 

[AV1611]

Joel,

I have stated my case and if you do not see it yet I will not labour the point and leave it here with the WLC:

Question 137: Which is the seventh commandment?
Answer: The seventh commandment is, Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Question 138: What are the duties required in the seventh commandment?
Answer: The duties required in the seventh commandment are, chastity in body, mind, affections, words, and behavior; and the preservation of it in ourselves and others; watchfulness over the eyes and all the senses; temperance, keeping of chaste company, modesty in apparel; marriage by those that have not the gift of continency, conjugal love, and cohabitation; diligent labor in our callings; shunning all occasions of uncleanness, and resisting temptations thereunto.

Question 139: What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, adultery, fornication, rape, incest, sodomy, and all unnatural lusts; all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections; all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto; wanton looks, impudent or light behavior, immodest apparel; prohibiting of lawful, and dispensing with unlawful marriages; allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them; entangling vows of single life, undue delay of marriage; having more wives or husbands than one at the same time; unjust divorce, or desertion; idleness, gluttony, drunkenness, unchaste company; lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays; and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.


God bless brother!

 

[Covenant Joel]

Joel,

I have stated my case and if you do not see it yet I will not labour the point and leave it here with the WLC:

Question 137: Which is the seventh commandment?
Answer: The seventh commandment is, Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Question 138: What are the duties required in the seventh commandment?
Answer: The duties required in the seventh commandment are, chastity in body, mind, affections, words, and behavior; and the preservation of it in ourselves and others; watchfulness over the eyes and all the senses; temperance, keeping of chaste company, modesty in apparel; marriage by those that have not the gift of continency, conjugal love, and cohabitation; diligent labor in our callings; shunning all occasions of uncleanness, and resisting temptations thereunto.

Question 139: What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, adultery, fornication, rape, incest, sodomy, and all unnatural lusts; all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections; all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto; wanton looks, impudent or light behavior, immodest apparel; prohibiting of lawful, and dispensing with unlawful marriages; allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them; entangling vows of single life, undue delay of marriage; having more wives or husbands than one at the same time; unjust divorce, or desertion; idleness, gluttony, drunkenness, unchaste company; lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays; and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.


God bless brother!

Agreeing to disagree here is probably the best thing to do. Just so you know, I'm not disagreeing with the above. There are dangers in undiscerning movie-watching. And I pray that I would not watch those that tempt me. So the part of your argument reflected above I will take to heart. But that's different than the question of whether drama itself is sin or not.

But 'nuff said about that topic.

Blessings.

 

[ZackF]

Another issue to consider is the quantity rather than merely the quality of TV viewing. Prolonged TV watching has a retarding effect on the mind. Since I live alone, I have no accountability on how much TV I watch. I could watch six hours of TV in the evening and no one would be the wiser. I certainly wouldn't.

 

[kvanlaan]

Another issue to consider is the quantity rather than merely the quality of TV viewing. Prolonged TV watching has a retarding effect on the mind. Since I live alone, I have no accountability on how much TV I watch. I could watch six hours of TV in the evening and no one would be the wiser. I certainly wouldn't.