The comfort of our baptism

[Herald]

Let me start this thread by clearly stating this is not a paedo vs. credo debate, nor will it be allowed to digress into that. All of us know our tendencies (myself included) and sometimes we have to chain the pitbulls to the bumper of a dump truck to keep them at bay.

A while back Rich made a statement about how his baptism has always been a source of comfort for him. I don't want to speak for Rich, so perhaps he can articulate exactly what he meant by that. He gave the example of an individual whose struggles with his Christian walk were greatly aided by understanding the significance of his baptism. I took a very detached view of that discussion and stated that I never viewed my baptism as a source of comfort, that my comfort was in Christ alone. It wasn't my intention to be smug but it may have come across that way. In light of the following passage I am beginning to rethink my opinion.

Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

There is no doubt that this passage is talking about baptism. The only question remaining is whether it is referring specifically of water baptism. If Paul is writing about water baptism then there is a power [in baptism] that needs to be grasped. Specifically it is the power over sin in our lives. It's not a magic salve that removes the practice of sin from our lives, but it clearly states that we have been delivered from it - that we are dead to it. And more than simply dead to sin, we are alive in Christ! The burial aspect of baptism is incomplete without the promise of the resurrection in He who personifies the resurrection, Christ Jesus. The more I contemplate this reality the more comfort I receive in my ongoing struggle against sin. Rich, is this what you had in mind when you originally commented on how your baptism was a constant source of comfort in your life?

 

[Zenas]

Hmm, what would you say to folks like me who were Baptized, but it was on a false conversion?

(I was baptized when I was 17, faslely. I converted when I was 20).

 

[Herald]

Hmm, what would you say to folks like me who were Baptized, but it was on a false conversion?

(I was baptized when I was 17, faslely. I converted when I was 20).

Andrew, your false conversion does not change the significance of baptism. The picture of baptism in Romans 6 still stands. Yes, as a Baptist I would insist that baptism be administered after a credible profession but that's not the point. A credo would point back to the significance of baptism independent of saving faith. Even if the individual was not truly saved at the time of their baptism they could still look at what baptism represents and be comforted by it.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

It matters what doctrine is attached to it. If you take an RCC view of Baptism then there are problems with what you are saying. At least in my thinking and in the thinking of others (both paedo and credo) who believe RCC baptism to be invalid. The significance of something is truly based upon how it relates to the pillar of truth and understanding it aright. Otherwise it is irrelevant. I know people who understand Christ is God and can explain the Trinity but they don't have an ounce of redeeming grace in them.

 

[brymaes]

...there is a power [in baptism] that needs to be grasped. Specifically it is the power over sin in our lives. It's not a magic salve that removes the practice of sin from our lives, but it clearly states that we have been delivered from it - that we are dead to it. And more than simply dead to sin, we are alive in Christ! The burial aspect of baptism is incomplete without the promise of the resurrection in He who personifies the resurrection, Christ Jesus. The more I contemplate this reality the more comfort I receive in my ongoing struggle against sin.

and

 

[Iconoclast]

Bill,
I believe the primary meaning of this section of Romans 6 is descriptive of Spirit Baptism. Water baptism cannot do what is described here,at all.
This speaks of the reigning power of sin being broken in the life,and our saving Union with Christ.
This is describing the truth and reality Of those described in Chapters 3-5 as
1] Those who are justified by faith
2]Who have the Holy Ghost in their heart 5;5
3] the many who are made righteous 5;19-21
So in chapter 6 Paul continues to answer questions, or objections that might come forward from the teaching of the first 5 chapters.
When the reality of the new birth is described as being baptized Into Christ he explains more of what that means in reality in our life and experience.
When we participate in water baptism, we are identifying publically with the Nt. teaching on this. The water baptism is an outward profession of what we believe has taken place inwardly, in reality.
When the Spirit quickens us,we obey the command to believe and be baptized.
Most of the commentaries on Romans 6 do not do enough to address this as they are following and trying to link this into the [sign and seal teaching] that our padeo brethren hold to.
They readily acknowledge the objective truth of salvation In Christ , as a perfect and completed work. However they go to the OC. model of an external inclusion into the covenant, and a physical inclusion into the "visible' church.
I think this passage rightly understood leads to the credo teaching.
Take a look at your commentaries on your book shelf and see if this is not true. When they are speaking of our Lord's work of Redemption, Propitiation,Justification, we all rejoice and glory together at the teaching that comes forth.
When you look for teaching in any of these commentaries,concerning how we enter into the church/ or covenant they quickly leave off talking about Spirit Baptism, then switch to water baptism.
This is why the two paths padeo/ credo, cannot totally come together in reference to infants/ household. When dealing with adults coming to faith there would be more of an agreement with anyone who is orthodox.
The work of the Spirit, would precede the water baptism.

That is why they will often speak about , or call upon someone to look back to their water baptism.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Let me start this thread by clearly stating this is not a paedo vs. credo debate, nor will it be allowed to digress into that. All of us know our tendencies (myself included) and sometimes we have to chain the pitbulls to the bumper of a dump truck to keep them at bay.

A while back Rich made a statement about how his baptism has always been a source of comfort for him. I don't want to speak for Rich, so perhaps he can articulate exactly what he meant by that. He gave the example of an individual whose struggles with his Christian walk were greatly aided by understanding the significance of his baptism. I took a very detached view of that discussion and stated that I never viewed my baptism as a source of comfort, that my comfort was in Christ alone. It wasn't my intention to be smug but it may have come across that way. In light of the following passage I am beginning to rethink my opinion.

Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

There is no doubt that this passage is talking about baptism. The only question remaining is whether it is referring specifically of water baptism. If Paul is writing about water baptism then there is a power [in baptism] that needs to be grasped. Specifically it is the power over sin in our lives. It's not a magic salve that removes the practice of sin from our lives, but it clearly states that we have been delivered from it - that we are dead to it. And more than simply dead to sin, we are alive in Christ! The burial aspect of baptism is incomplete without the promise of the resurrection in He who personifies the resurrection, Christ Jesus. The more I contemplate this reality the more comfort I receive in my ongoing struggle against sin. Rich, is this what you had in mind when you originally commented on how your baptism was a constant source of comfort in your life?

I think Romans 6 speaks of both - in a sense. In one sense, Romans 6 can only be talking about those who are united to Christ by faith. Faith is the alone instrument that procures for us the full benefits of Christ's death and resurrection. I think sometimes people see "baptism" or "being buried with Christ" and want to ascribe that there is some sort of one-for-one correspondence between the actual act and the profound reality that Paul is talking about.

Romans 6 is near the beginning of a lengthy section that begins in Romans 5 that demonstrates that Christ saves all of His to the uttermost. All of Christ benefits must come inexorably to those united to Him even as He has promised they will. It is sort of a see-saw between letting the believer know that you received an inheritance from God while you were His enemies (Christ justifies the un-Godly), that He saved you to live unto Him since we are now united to Him, that sin yet abides, but finally nothing can overcome that salvation because God has purposed it from all eternity.

It is absolutely critical to distinguish that our salvation cannot in any way be seen as originating within our will but that even our faith is the gift of God.

But then we must acknowledge the other aspect of baptism and that is that God attaches what He's doing for His elect to a very visible sign. He makes the rites by which He announces His grace very public and noticeable for us. He doesn't merely leave us speculating but He makes very public announcements of His promise to us. Thus, in Baptism, He declares to us that as surely as we see water washing away the filth of our flesh so too are our sins washed away as we place our faith in Christ. It is very public and the minister announces the promise as God's herald. It marks us out as set apart from the world and places us within a community of believers who have received the same Promise and have worked toward the end of building up and exhorting to strengthen the faith that God has promised to attend His promises with.

Why, then, would one look back to their baptism? Again, it is because the same God who elects unto salvation also uses the actual act of baptism to announce the very grace He is showering upon us. It's the same reason He commanded memorial stones to be erected. They were historical markers where God's power was manifest and it calls people's minds back to a historical event where God acted for them. In your baptism, God announced to you that He would save you if you placed faith in Christ. He didn't state that He would save you because He would look at the quality of your faith and attributed to that faith merit and save you on the basis of a meritorious faith. He stated simply for you to cling to Christ, trust in the Cross, look to the Captain of your salvation.

I look to my baptism because Christ is the object there and it holds Him forth. Satan can sift my faith like wheat and convince me how weak it is. One thing he cannot take away was the Promise made to me. I know my faith is stronger or weaker at times but I know that any faith borne from above is enough to lay hold of the righteousness of Christ and my baptism gives me confidence because God promised me Christ's benefits at my baptism.

 

[Herald]

I look to my baptism because Christ is the object there and it holds Him forth. Satan can sift my faith like wheat and convince me how weak it is. One thing he cannot take away was the Promise made to me. I know my faith is stronger or weaker at times but I know that any faith borne from above is enough to lay hold of the righteousness of Christ and my baptism gives me confidence because God promised me Christ's benefits at my baptism.

Rich, amen and amen. I never viewed baptism the way you explained it. I simply understood baptism to be a public profession of faith, a pronouncement of the new. The function of baptism was born of requirement in my mind, although I wouldn't be so crass as to state it like that. But in my continued struggle against sin (and trust me, it's one whale of a struggle) I now have a new ally. If faith is indeed the victory, perhaps baptism serves as the proclamation of emancipation. And more that that it is a visible reminder of death to sin and surety of the resurrection.

Teaching an old dog new tricks isn't impossible after all.

 

[Herald]

Bill,
I believe the primary meaning of this section of Romans 6 is descriptive of Spirit Baptism. Water baptism cannot do what is described here,at all.
This speaks of the reigning power of sin being broken in the life,and our saving Union with Christ.
This is describing the truth and reality Of those described in Chapters 3-5 as
1] Those who are justified by faith
2]Who have the Holy Ghost in their heart 5;5
3] the many who are made righteous 5;19-21
So in chapter 6 Paul continues to answer questions, or objections that might come forward from the teaching of the first 5 chapters.
When the reality of the new birth is described as being baptized Into Christ he explains more of what that means in reality in our life and experience.
When we participate in water baptism, we are identifying publically with the Nt. teaching on this. The water baptism is an outward profession of what we believe has taken place inwardly, in reality.
When the Spirit quickens us,we obey the command to believe and be baptized.
Most of the commentaries on Romans 6 do not do enough to address this as they are following and trying to link this into the [sign and seal teaching] that our padeo brethren hold to.
They readily acknowledge the objective truth of salvation In Christ , as a perfect and completed work. However they go to the OC. model of an external inclusion into the covenant, and a physical inclusion into the "visible' church.
I think this passage rightly understood leads to the credo teaching.
Take a look at your commentaries on your book shelf and see if this is not true. When they are speaking of our Lord's work of Redemption, Propitiation,Justification, we all rejoice and glory together at the teaching that comes forth.
When you look for teaching in any of these commentaries,concerning how we enter into the church/ or covenant they quickly leave off talking about Spirit Baptism, then switch to water baptism.
This is why the two paths padeo/ credo, cannot totally come together in reference to infants/ household. When dealing with adults coming to faith there would be more of an agreement with anyone who is orthodox.
The work of the Spirit, would precede the water baptism.

That is why they will often speak about , or call upon someone to look back to their water baptism.

Anthony, I anticipated the dispute as to whether Romans 6 is referring to water baptism or spirit baptism. I believe I stated that in my OP. I am not questioning mode at all. I a convinced credo baptist and the point of this thread was not to seek some sort of détente with my paedo brethren. But I believe there is strength in our baptism that transcends a simple, but profound, proclamation of our faith. That proclamation is still there to be sure. Baptism announces our faith in Christ in a very public way. I am not diminishing that. The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether baptism can be a source of comfort and encouragement for the Christian. Is it something we can look back on and hold onto as an ally in our walk with Christ, or is it a onetime act that we need to leave behind us?

What say you?

 

[aleksanderpolo]

Bill, it is also interesting to note that God gave Abraham the sign of circumcision when Abraham was struggling with his faith in God's promise. So, the covenant sign was given to assure His people of His promise, a visible sign of His faithfulness, that He will fulfill what He has promised.

 

[moral necessity]

Excellent thougths brothers! Thanks, Rich, for the excellent post! You've brought together some stranded threads in my thinking regarding baptism. I like the idea that baptism is a sign of what Christ promises to do for us, rather than what we promise to do for him. This is greatly comforting! I don't know why every christian wouldn't welcome this truth with open arms and shouts of joy! This swings the pendulum totally in the other direction! The more God progresses me along with him, the more I see that the christain life isn't about what I'm doing for God because of what he has done for me, but rather what he is doing because of what he promised to do for his name's sake. So, we are his workmanship. Praise his name!

Also, Rich, do you know of any books that focus on the points you were mentioning?

Blessings!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Excellent thougths brothers! Thanks, Rich, for the excellent post! You've brought together some stranded threads in my thinking regarding baptism. I like the idea that baptism is a sign of what Christ promises to do for us, rather than what we promise to do for him. This is greatly comforting! I don't know why every christian wouldn't welcome this truth with open arms and shouts of joy! This swings the pendulum totally in the other direction! The more God progresses me along with him, the more I see that the christain life isn't about what I'm doing for God because of what he has done for me, but rather what he is doing because of what he promised to do for his name's sake. So, we are his workmanship. Praise his name!

Also, Rich, do you know of any books that focus on the points you were mentioning?

Blessings!

I would start with the Westminster Standards on these points because they are excellent. The Heidelberg also has some great language.

I wish I could point to a particular book that helped this gel. I've actually been helped by a number of people over the years including this board and I don't know where to point you in terms of one book.

Most recently, the Confessional Presbyterian Journal (The Confessional Presbyterian » Welcome) has been publishing some great articles. Really, I've found my understanding of baptism has been sharpened against the error of the federal vision who confuse sign and sacrament. If you read some of the articles in the CPJournal then it will draw some of that stuff out.

There is a really, really good article in this year's issue: John Brown of Wamphray, Richard Baxter and the Justification Controversy. By Bruce R. Backensto

I know it seems odd that I would point you to an article on justification but it really did occur to me that one of the issues I've had with many forms of baptism is that they tend to point a believer back upon his faith and that in some small measure like Baxter, they turn the faith of the believer into our Gospel righteousness. In other words, by making the faith of the believer the reason to conduct the baptism, without stating it outright, they make many believe that the ground of their justifiction is the strength of their faith.

I've believed, for some time, that our view of baptism is informed by our view of justification and that what we do in our baptism (or say about it) needs to strengthen and encourage our justification.

A few books to consider:
O. Palmer Robertson's The Christ of the Covenants
Michael Horton's God of Promise as well as Covenant and Salvation
Danny Hyde's Jesus Loves the Little Children

 

[Iconoclast]

Bill,
Thank you for your question in response to my post. I was trying to word what I said carefully so as to try not to cause any unnecessary offense to our brethren here. I was not trying to drift away from the intent of the original post,as it is a good topic. I might not have been as sucessful as I wanted to be
Let me try to focus on your good question. You asked this;

The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether baptism can be a source of comfort and encouragement for the Christian. Is it something we can look back on and hold onto as an ally in our walk with Christ, or is it a onetime act that we need to leave behind us?

What say you?

A christian can take comfort as they look back upon the work of God, in translating them into the kingdom,out from the realm of death into life.
For many of us we can look back to a time in life when we were drawn to Jesus as Lord. We were made conscious of our sin and rebellion and were drawn to a place to ask mercy of God and cleansing from sin,and it's consequences.
The obedience of faith would have us to be baptized. In the public acknowledgement of our sinful past, and the new life being wrought in us by the Spirit of God, our water baptism can be looked back upon as a defining moment that allows us to work through and consider what God has done in our life.
Each one of us in here has a diverse testimony about how the Spirit quickened us. My baptism was like a capstone to a 6 month period in my life where I went from reading the bible as an enemy of God, looking for mistakes and contradictions in it, to feeling the weight of my sin and a need for mercy.
I can still remember most of the events of that period of time. It was all of grace.
I was the last person on earth that would have believed the bible. I would curse people who would discuss it with me. There are many other things of which I am now ashamed. It is interesting that toward the end of this section of Romans Paul writes this;

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you [/QUOTE

When I raised the issue of Spirit /water in my other post it is just that I cannot conceive of viewing this section of scripture apart from Spirit baptism. [ that was all I meant to point out, particularlily here in Romans 6
Bill, you know how we are told every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess?

11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

I have always viewed a believer's baptism as a bowing of the heart savingly, before the white throne judgment. As if saying I surrender, I am guilty. By your mercy I believe. Now in obedience to your word I will identify with you in your death , burial and resurrection in the waters of baptism.
The goats will bow and confess too late to be covered by the blood.
So yes our baptism can be a source of comfort as the other men have posted,if viewed this way. Identification with/confession of , an internal work.