The DMin - Should it Exist?

TheInquirer

TheInquirer

Puritan Board Junior
I mentioned in another thread it is my personal opinion that the DMin seems a bit fraudulent. From my limited perspective, it comes across as a way for a pastor to buy into a Dr. title in front of their name without the work of a PhD (or equivalent) and then fool people into thinking they have the knowledge and clout of one who has actually done the hard work of an actual PhD.

The son of a prominent author and preacher once told me his Dad, who had gotten a DMin, chose to drop the Dr. from in front of his name after conviction of reading the Scriptures (2 Corinthians 3:1-3 if I recall). He also called his DMin "a complete joke." My respect did nothing but increase for him after hearing this.

I am sure not all DMins are equal in their rigour and purpose but am quite confident I don't know any that come close to PhD level but I thought I would inquire of the community here.

What do you all think - are DMin degrees doctorate level worthy in their difficulty and status? Are they being abused by pastors to achieve status or are they legitimate?
 
This ends up in a similar contest as the dispute over whether your optometrist or chiropractor "deserves" to be titled: Doctor. Or how about osteopaths or naturopaths over against allopaths? There are passionate people on both sides of the arguments. Issues of training or level of education get intertwined with matters of personal or professional regard and credentialing.

In other words, the debate over who gets to be called "doctor" isn't confined to a single field. Thus, the question comes down to "what kind of doctor, or what kind of degree?" A D.Min. degree is a "professional" degree, and not a strictly academic one. It is a "cut above" the honorary doctorate that different educational institutions are known to hand out as a kind of dignity. The D.Min. should not be regarded as the equivalent of the generally more scholarly rigorous Ph.D. as awarded by institutions other than degree-mills. What actually happens in the real world, well....

No matter what the letters after or before your name, every such title or degree has potential to mislead and to function as self-promotion, rather than as a genuine advertisement of competency and attainment, and trustworthiness connected to the title. It does seem to me as if people tend to seek to distinguish themselves from others by collecting titles and degrees, a problem made worse in an era of "grade inflation," in circles where practically everyone has got a basic college degree, and where colleges seeking new revenue create paths for mutual gratification.

But supposing the D.Min. fills a real space, I recognize the rationale for its existence. Not every desire for the title of Doctor is equally a vanity project, for a busy pastor fulfilling his calling. Perhaps his ordinary work is able to meet the academic requirements of two efforts at once? Achieving the D.Min. takes some additional discipline and commitment of time. Finding fault with everyone who seeks such a credential seems to paint with too broad a brush. The fact that fresh institutions constantly add this degree path (seeking to tap the market) is at least as much to blame as those drawn to the pursuit, if only because of a new proximity to the possibility.

I don't think the issue is simple. As alluded to in the OP, a D.Min. from a school like WTS is also "worth more" than the same from a seminary in a strip mall. But then, a Bachelors from Oxford or Harvard is "worth more" in the eyes of certain people than a Doctorate from the UNLV. Some people go out of country to get an M.D., and return to land a license and a job in the USA, where they could not get into a med school. There are good and bad doctors from both routes. The same must surely be true of Th.D.s in theology (or Ph.D.s) vs. D.Min.s.

P.S. Does anyone else think it is ironic that a degree in spiritual matters sounds like an award from hell? Just sayin'....
 
What exactly is the DMin supposed to confer? Since it is yet another relatively new professional degree does it make a man more of a professional clergyman? When I look at the qualifications of the men who take great care to provide faithful Bible translations for example I don’t see any DMins among them. But if someone pastors a wealthy congregation perhaps this degree is expected. After all, nearly everyone is a doctor of something or other now. Gotta keep up with the culture I suppose.
 
I don't have the reference handy, but I remember reading that there was a time that in our denomination, the ARP, the denominational seminary was giving lots of ministers the honorary "Doctor of Divinity" degree such that almost any minister of stature would be referred to as "Doctor." It seems that generally the D.D. degree is honorary in the US whereas the D.Min is earned, though it's generally not a research doctorate like a Ph.D.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Or how about osteopaths
Click to expand...
I'd cut osteopaths off your list. They have the skills of an MD these days, and are generally treated the same for post grad training or hospital privileges.

And don't forget about lawyers. I've only run across one that wanted to call himself Dr*., although almost all of us have J.D.s. I did know of one old guy, now dead, who graduated with an LL.B. when decades later his law school tried to send him a new certificate with JD on it, he refused to display it. So if there is any merit to the original proposition, maybe the takeaway would be that, on the whole, lawyers have more integrity than preachers?

*fn: not counting the guy I went to law school with who already had an MD.

Then there are DNPs (originally N.D.s) which is the non research focused terminal degree for nurses. My understanding is that they also avoid using the honorific 'Doctor' and this is probably the closer comparison to D.Minn.

And finally, is the honorary Doctor of Divinity degree still around? That's what preachers used to acquire to hang Dr. in front of their name. And it required no academic effort at all.
 
I think most Dmin folks (myself included) know it's a doctorate Jr to some extent. Even among programs many are easier or more difficult than others. I don't plan on using the title, not that it ultimately matters. As was mentioned above in a different way, can a Nurse practitioner be a Dr. like a medical Dr. can? Certainly, I suppose that's why doctor of... follows the degree. a Ph.D., for instance, is generally received as more respectable than a DMin.
 
I concur that the title "Dr." can be vanity if someone insists on being addressed as such. There's no need for that in my opinion. I might take it too far, but I don't want people to even call me "Mr." or use my last name. I like being on the same level as anyone else. If someone's heart is respectful towards me, that's good enough. I don't need the outward formality.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
But supposing the D.Min. fills a real space, I recognize the rationale for its existence. Not every desire for the title of Doctor is equally a vanity project, for a busy pastor fulfilling his calling. Perhaps his ordinary work is able to meet the academic requirements of two efforts at once? Achieving the D.Min. takes some additional discipline and commitment of time. Finding fault with everyone who seeks such a credential seems to paint with too broad a brush.
Click to expand...

As usual Bruce, your entire post is extremely well said and makes many excellent points.

I am in full agreement with you not to paint every DMin recipient as purely operating out of vanity. A man has control about how he presents himself once he has the degree (hence my example of the well-known pastor in my OP who took a path of humility, not that every man needs to follow his choice mind you, but merely of one way it can be done.)

Let's work off your point - "supposing the D.Min fills a real space" - I could see the training filling a real space, deeper skill in preaching or whatever else the content is trying to achieve etc. But would it make more sense to avoid the title "Doctor" for the degree, due to its tendency for abuse and confusion, and come up with something else instead?

I am afraid that part of the reason for a seminary to call it a "Doctorate" is simply for marketing purposes, knowing that it will indeed be used for purposes of vanity.

However, perhaps there is a DMin program somewhere, Westminster or other, that truly deserves the label of "Doctorate" due to its rigor and quality. I understand there is no perfect standard as to what consitutes a program "Doctorate" level but if we slap the term on programs (and people) that do not have the same relative standard as a PhD (or even somewhat close), does the term "Doctorate" get watered down?

Here's my motive in posting this - I am getting real tired of fraud within the Protestant world and would like to see something done about it.
 
Credentials, credentialing and credentialism are more of those things in life that are on a continuum never to quite hit the target. Humans tend to uncritically jump back and forth between the "cult of the amateur" and the "cult of the expert." Both extremes are disastrous for any field.

I don't have a problem with credentials and subsequently gradations in principle. As long as one knows that a PhD should or usually trumps D.Min in academic accomplishment, it does not matter if the title is used. I care more when credentials are used and abused to circumvent the importance of solid evidence and sound reasoning. A greater scandal is one where a PhD uses his credentials to carelessly launder a dubious work from anyone else, including other PhDs. This is an absolute travesty and In my humble opinion, the far greater sin than someone wanting to be called "doctor."
 
a ThM is as challenging as a Dmin I think. Begets the question why one is a title and the other a Master.
 
Polanus1561 said:
a ThM is as challenging as a Dmin I think. Begets the question why one is a title and the other a Master.
Click to expand...
I like “begets the question.”

As Edward said, attorneys get JDs, but no one but the weird calls himself “doctor.” Funny thing is an advanced degree beyond JD is LLM, which is a master’s degree.
 
TheInquirer said:
I mentioned in another thread it is my personal opinion that the DMin seems a bit fraudulent. From my limited perspective, it comes across as a way for a pastor to buy into a Dr. title in front of their name without the work of a PhD (or equivalent) and then fool people into thinking they have the knowledge and clout of one who has actually done the hard work of an actual PhD.

The son of a prominent author and preacher once told me his Dad, who had gotten a DMin, chose to drop the Dr. from in front of his name after conviction of reading the Scriptures (2 Corinthians 3:1-3 if I recall). He also called his DMin "a complete joke." My respect did nothing but increase for him after hearing this.

I am sure not all DMins are equal in their rigour and purpose but am quite confident I don't know any that come close to PhD level but I thought I would inquire of the community here.

What do you all think - are DMin degrees doctorate level worthy in their difficulty and status? Are they being abused by pastors to achieve status or are they legitimate?
Click to expand...
I think the question in your title and the question you actually raise in your post are a little different.

It’s debatable whether the admin deserves the title of doctorate. However in quality programs I think they certainly can be beneficial, particularly for working pastors seeking to deepen their knowledge.
 
VictorBravo said:
I like “begets the question.”

As Edward said, attorneys get JDs, but no one but the weird calls himself “doctor.” Funny thing is an advanced degree beyond JD is LLM, which is a master’s degree.
Click to expand...
I believe the distinction is that D.Min must add to knowledge, therefore producing a unique doctoral project. The Th.M. is to demonstrate a mastery over a subject without making a contribution to its field. Now that prompts the question if D.Min project contribute new knowledge? However, I've seen legitimately regarded Ph.D.'s which, in my view, failed to make a useful contribution.
 
Polanus1561 said:
a ThM is as challenging as a Dmin I think. Begets the question why one is a title and the other a Master.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting point -- I've found a good DMin program does push writing to a doctoral level to try and retain that distinction. But in general many DMin programs are easier than a ThM regrettably.
 
If an accredited D.Min is a joke, then is not an unaccredited Ph.D. also a joke? This topic leads me to question if persons who have a Ph.D. from unaccredited institutions should be passive in conveying the word "doctor" or abbreviations "Ph.D." in proximity to their name, since it implies a level of obtainment that most would recognize legitimately from accredited schools.
 
The alternative would be to change M.Div to D.Th. After 7 years of education, perhaps it should be treated as a doctorate, along the lines of a J.D.

Pharmacy used to be as short as 5 years - two years undergrad and 3 years grad school. It looks like now that most programs to get a doctorate there are 4 years (although it appears that some can still be done in 3) and an undergraduate degree is still not a technical requirement although many programs seem to favor that.
 
The Doctor of Ministry is a "professional" doctorate usually designed to deepen ones knowledge, strengthen their leadership, improve their preaching, etc. I'm not arguing that ministers are "professionals". The DMin is not unlike the Doctor of Education (EdD), Doctor of Business Administration (DBA), Doctor of Public Administration (DPA), etc. Each of these are professional doctorates designed to enhance one's knowledge in their discipline. They are not the same as a PhD in those same disciplines. However, they will allow one to teach in education programs, business programs, and public administrations programs respectively.

I am also reminded of the origins of the title Doctor. It comes from the Latin and was the noun form of the Latin verb docēre, which means, 'to teach'. In other words, it was a title for a teacher, though the origins are with the church, not the academy, but was given to those in a position of authority who taught the Bible.

I think all of the above is helpful when thinking about the DMin versus the PhD. Is the DMin the same as a PhD? No. Is it meant to be? No. Might there be some who pursue it because they want the title of Doctor without having to do a PhD? Yes. Is it true of all? No. Might it also be true that many pastors simply like the discipline formal education requires, but do not have the time or finances to pursue a PhD and want to further develop their research and writing, deepen their thought, and improve themselves for their vocation? Yes.

I think this last statement is true for most pastors. The academic snobbery some engage in, looking down their noses upon those with a DMin, is evidence of both pride and ignorance (Pride in their academic credentials and ignorance of the motives of the person holding a DMin.)
 
As someone who completed a D.Min for various reasons (as an ARP wanted to attend and get to know Erskine Theo Sem, felt like I needed some more seasoning at a confessionally Reformed seminary, the D.Min for ARP students is very inexpensive, and didn't have time for a more rigorous degree) I found the D.Min to be a step above an M.A. academically and enjoyed everything about the process. The D.Min at Erskine was challenging, but certainly not overwhelmingly so, and the profs at Erskine definitely made us write at a doctoral level when doing the dissertation. However, as you can tell in my signature below I do not refer to myself as Doctor, but use D.Min as a suffix to recognize I've progressed past the M.Div. ATS has also changed some of the requirements of the D.Min to try to "push it up" the respectability ladder.

To that end I am actually going back to get my Th.M for some of the reasons noted in this thread.
 
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
As someone who completed a D.Min for various reasons (as an ARP wanted to attend and get to know Erskine Theo Sem, felt like I needed some more seasoning at a confessionally Reformed seminary, the D.Min for ARP students is very inexpensive, and didn't have time for a more rigorous degree) I found the D.Min to be a step above an M.A. academically and enjoyed everything about the process. The D.Min at Erskine was challenging, but certainly not overwhelmingly so, and the profs at Erskine definitely made us write at a doctoral level when doing the dissertation. However, as you can tell in my signature below I do not refer to myself as Doctor, but use D.Min as a suffix to recognize I've progressed past the M.Div. ATS has also changed some of the requirements of the D.Min to try to "push it up" the respectability ladder.

To that end I am actually going back to get my Th.M for some of the reasons noted in this thread.
Click to expand...
Where will you go for your Th.M.?
 
For what it's worth, the rigors of an M.Div are typically 2x what you would need to do in order to receive a Master's Degree in a particular discipline. I have a Masters in Christian Ministry from a Seminary because I decided I was going to stick with being an RE and I was only halfway to the MDiv. I don't include it on my resume.but the things I learned are invaluable.
By the way, I understand that Richard Muller has a DMin and his contribution to theology far outstrips many who have Ph.Ds. The attainment of some academic goal is often for personal reasons but, in the world, one's contribution is ultimately measured by something different so I don't worry about whether or not someone seeks to get a degree.
 
Semper Fidelis said:
For what it's worth, the rigors of an M.Div are typically 2x what you would need to do in order to receive a Master's Degree in a particular discipline. I have a Masters in Christian Ministry from a Seminary because I decided I was going to stick with being an RE and I was only halfway to the MDiv. I don't include it on my resume.but the things I learned are invaluable.
By the way, I understand that Richard Muller has a DMin and his contribution to theology far outstrips many who have Ph.Ds. The attainment of some academic goal is often for personal reasons but, in the world, one's contribution is ultimately measured by something different so I don't worry about whether or not someone seeks to get a degree.
Click to expand...

FYI Richard Muller has a PhD from Duke.

The MDiv should really be reverted to a BDiv in my opinion. It is not a research degree and it is not particularly challenging when compared to Master's degrees in other disciplines. I do not have an MDiv, but the MDiv classes I have taken at Puritan align much closer to the level of rigor in my Freshman-Junior year classes for my undergrad, whereas the ThM classes that I am taking at Puritan are similar to the coursework I took for my Masters degree in Mathematics (albeit way different in a number of ways).
 
MChase said:
The MDiv should really be reverted to a BDiv in my opinion. It is not a research degree and it is not particularly challenging when compared to Master's degrees in other disciplines. I do not have an MDiv, but the MDiv classes I have taken at Puritan align much closer to the level of rigor in my Freshman-Junior year classes for my undergrad, whereas the ThM classes that I am taking at Puritan are similar to the coursework I took for my Masters degree in Mathematics (albeit way different in a number of ways).
Click to expand...
I can definitely see your argument here, and in many ways I think it would be beneficial if this were done so that men did not have to jump through the additional hoop of a Bachelor's before starting seminary. Some seminaries such as the one I'm attending do have a "BDiv" option which covers the same material as the MDiv, and I suppose that proves your original point.

On the other hand, I wonder if the extra time and basic academic skills that are (at least hopefully) baked into a bachelor's program are important in themselves before someone starts seminary. I also wonder about the effect such a downgrade would have on the general esteem in which people hold pastors, given that the expectation for professionals to accumulate degrees in our culture seems only to be rising.
 
MChase said:
The MDiv should really be reverted to a BDiv in my opinion. It is not a research degree and it is not particularly challenging when compared to Master's degrees in other disciplines. I do not have an MDiv, but the MDiv classes I have taken at Puritan align much closer to the level of rigor in my Freshman-Junior year classes for my undergrad, whereas the ThM classes that I am taking at Puritan are similar to the coursework I took for my Masters degree in Mathematics (albeit way different in a number of ways).
Click to expand...
It's interesting how degrees have become inflated. The MDiv used to be a Bachelor of Divinity before the nomenclature change. Similarly, the JD, juris doctorate for attorneys, used to be an LLB, or Bachelor of Laws. The University of Chicago was the first to transition to a JD in the early 1900s. By the mid 1960s, the ABA had decided the first professional law degree should be the JD.

Rather than a Bachelor of Divinity, South University now has a DMin program that one can enter with only a Bachelor's degree. They view it similar to the the 90 hour JD, so rather than earning an MDiv after 90 hours, you earn the DMin. I'm sure it's easier to market a DMin over a BDiv!

By the way, in their FAQ section, the question is asked, "Is the program accredited through ATS [The Association of Theological Schools]?" The university's answer is: "We are the Department of Ministry within South University, which is not a Christian school or Seminary. South University, and all of its Departments, are regionally accredited through the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges and is accountable to the United States Department of Education."
 
ArkansasTraveler said:
Rather than a Bachelor of Divinity, South University now has a DMin program that one can enter with only a Bachelor's degree. They view it similar to the the 90 hour JD, so rather than earning an MDiv after 90 hours, you earn the DMin. I'm sure it's easier to market a DMin over a BDiv!
Click to expand...
Looking at the admissions requirements page it mentions a requirement of an "earned graduate degree". Is there another place where they mention the possibility of entering without a graduate degree?
 
Blood-Bought Pilgrim said:
Looking at the admissions requirements page it mentions a requirement of an "earned graduate degree". Is there another place where they mention the possibility of entering without a graduate degree?
Click to expand...
Yes sir. Try here. They discuss comparing MDiv and DMin programs. If you enter with a graduate degree, the total DMin program hours are reduced.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Notthemama1984
  • Locked
Dmin question
Replies
15
Views
8K
Curt
Curt
Notthemama1984
Career after Dmin
Replies
11
Views
3K
Notthemama1984
Notthemama1984
Notthemama1984
  • Locked
Dmin in Homiletics
Replies
9
Views
4K
Backwoods Presbyterian
Backwoods Presbyterian
SolaScriptura
  • Locked
Reformed schools offering the DMin degree
Replies
4
Views
3K
Kevin
Kevin
S
  • Locked
Dmin For Practical Exegetical Study?
Replies
14
Views
3K
Steve Curtis
Steve Curtis
Back
Top