The Extent of Sexual Immorality

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FrozenChosen

Puritan Board Freshman
I'm sure most of the people on this board agree: adultery and homosexuality are sins.

But what about trans-gender operations? Obviously no one would think to write about them when you can't perform them!

I'm just curious as to how you guys would approach this. I'm in a discussion on a blog about it and I'm lumping it in with:

sexual immorality
idolotry

I'm not sure if I'm somehow way missing the mark and shouldn't be concerned about these thing because everyone seems to be way against the church saying "no" to them.

And it's not like I think we should shun people who do have them or anything either.

What do you guys think? Is it appropriate? How should I approach it? What are verses that speak toward this issue?
 

Bladestunner316

Puritan Board Doctor
It goes against what God designed for you. Its mans attempt to play God in the most disgusting form yet. It is sin most definetelly.

blade
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
what do we do in the case of hermaphrodite. Should they stay as both genders, or should they pick one. Kinda odd question I know but any thoughts?

VanVos
 

Irishcat922

Puritan Board Sophomore
I think that obviously, the Creation is distorted by sin. Man wants to take what is caused by sin and make it natural. {Rom. 1} Aren't we simply worshipping and serving the creature rather than the Creator, They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator- Who is forever praised. Amen. Rom. 1:25
 

rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
Men must have had both testicles to enter the Israelite cult (I can't remember the verse).

Also when Paul says that a man should dress appropriately to his gender, and likewise the women. Paul was saying that men should not wear dresses (etc.), so I would assume that would imply that if anybody ever was a man, that he should act appropriately and not try to become a female. If it implies for clothes, it definitely implies for s*x-change.

Rembrandt
 

twogunfighter

Puritan Board Freshman
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [u:ff6d3a1004]nor effeminate,[/u:ff6d3a1004] nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Not sure what could be more effeminate than trading in your parts.

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by twogunfighter]
 

Mary

Puritan Board Freshman
I feel pretty sorry for people who are so miserable with who they are that they feel like they have to change it so drastically. To answer the question, I would definately put this is the same category as homosexuality and adultery. It's kind of like cross-dressing, except permanent. I have long been concerned with movies that promote cross-dressing (To Wong Foo, etc.) as a lifestyle option.

This is a slight tangent, but it's mostly men becoming women, isn't it? (Not the other way around.) I wonder why that is...

Mary
 

Pete Richert

Inactive User
[quote:e10d2c6778]
what do we do in the case of hermaphrodite. Should they stay as both genders, or should they pick one. Kinda odd question I know but any thoughts?
[/quote:e10d2c6778]

I think this is a really difficult one. I used to think it was as simple as checking out their DNA. While their hormones may have gotten out of balance, surely they are either xx (female) or xy (male). But the truth is, some of them have some cells that are xx and some cells that are xy. They truly are both male and female. I don't have any simple answers for this one.
 

Mary

Puritan Board Freshman
Oh sheesh. How dumb am I? I thought "hermaphrodite" was made up. I didn't know that that really happens to people. How often does that happen? I thought the guy who told me about that was pulling my leg (I get teased a lot because I'm gullible). He said Jamie Lee Curtis was one. I thought he was teasing me because she's kind of masculine...

"What an aquamaroon...what a gulla-BULL..."

Mary :rolleyes:
 

alwaysreforming

Puritan Board Sophomore
"I'm not sure if I'm somehow way missing the mark and shouldn't be concerned about these thing because everyone seems to be way against the church saying "no" to them."

FrozenChosen:
If you're asking if its worthwhile to be involved in a debate/discussion on this topic with others, I'd say it depends on who you're talking to.
If these people aren't Christians, then it seems as though you'd be engaging in a very "low impact" exercise- I don't think they'd give a darn what the Bible says and their opinions won't be changed by your reasoning.
 

FrozenChosen

Puritan Board Freshman
No, the person I'm discussing this with is a professing Christian.

I'm sure I've got some skewed views on topics that I haven't looked into yet. One thing this person said was that she didn't think the church had any business looking trying to affect a pre-op transgender decision.

Now, I'm not advocating EVERY member of a church snooping around in each others business, but I think if we're a body people should step up and point stuff out.

Thank you all for your responses, it's really butressed my stance on this issue.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
So how does one repent from a sex change? Shall we consider them "eunechs" for the kingdom?

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by puritansailor]
 

dado6

Puritan Board Freshman
It surely is a sexual sin as much as adultery or homosexuality.

1 Cor. 6:9 is pretty appropriate although the exact meaning of malakoi is somewhat arguable (does it refer to actual homosexuals or just sissy/prissy type men). Either way it is tough pass over transgender dressing or medical procedures in light of this scripture.

And I believe one can repent of this sin as much as any other (forgive me if you tongue was in your cheek on this puritansailor). Otherwise how would one repent of murder?

I agree that idolotry is in play here as well. We are clearly exalting our 'identity' over God's creative wisdom when we view our gender as something we can change for our own benefit.

I have witnessed the pain this sinful behavior can bring about. A close friend of ours has a transgender relative (man to woman). Difficult situation for them. They are in the more conservative wing of the SDA church. While the family is quick to speak of their acceptance of him, they always have concerns over his potential presence at any get together with church-members. They also do not invite him when other folks' children will be present. In their nuclear realm they may accept him, but they are clearly embarrassed for or by him outside of this sphere. Just goes to show how this sin affects more than just the recipient of the sex change.

I cannot see how this behavior can be considered anything but sinful.

Thanks,
Rob
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
[quote:3db25f5bfb][i:3db25f5bfb]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:3db25f5bfb]
So how does one repent from a sex change? Shall we consider them "eunechs" for the kingdom?

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by puritansailor] [/quote:3db25f5bfb]

Repentance must be brought on by godly sorrow; from the heart. One way of exhibiting true repentance in this instance would be to exhibit male attitudes and dress........yes, Patrick, eunuchs for the kingdom. I guess clinically, these men would have to now supplement their hormones.

[Edited on 5-14-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 

Mary

Puritan Board Freshman
FrozenChosen wrote:
[quote:af2de23c98]
Now, I'm not advocating EVERY member of a church snooping around in each others business, but I think if we're a body people should step up and point stuff out.
[/quote:af2de23c98]

As someone who has known cross-dressers and transsexuals (don't ask why if you don't REALLY want to know), I have a strong feeling about the PAIN these people are in. They really don't like themselves. (I am speaking in generalizations here.) It is much like the fact that gays tend to have much higher rates of alcohol/drug addiction and suicide attempts. They are in a LOT of pain. They don't like themselves. I think (although most of them would never admit it) that on a very basic level, they feel separated from God because of their sin. Therefore, I think it's important to always approach these people in a "God loves the sinner, but hates the sin" way. After all, none of us really know who's Elect and who isn't, and it is always better to err on the side of mercy. God doesn't need our help meting out justice. That is why Fred Phelps and his happy band of "fag haters" make me so ANGRY. I have a knee jerk reaction to "Hippie God" (if you get what I mean) because that makes God one-dimensional; and the Creator must be more complex than the created; but we are called to be compassionate. After all, (not to shock anyone) I have sinned. Now, I don't think we say, "It's OK, whatever you do. God doesn't care how you live your life, as long as you're a good person." That's not true, or helpful. But to point fingers and say "Sinner!" isn't the most loving option either.

Not that I think you would, FC, just trying to point out the importance of a gentle heart, especially when there is so much pain. Blah blah blah. For the Cliffs Notes:
YES the church should speak up
YES it is our business (we are a community)
YES we must be gentle and loving
:wr50:

Paul Manata wrote:
[quote:af2de23c98]
In one sense it is made up. Hermaphrodite was the child of the greek gods Hermes and Aphrodite. The child was half male and halef female. So, you were correct in a sense.
[/quote:af2de23c98]

Yeah, that's what I meant! I was just checking to see if YOU knew!

Seriously, IS Jamie Lee Curtis a hermaphrodite? You're from California; you should know...

Mary :bs2:
 

FrozenChosen

Puritan Board Freshman
Mary,

While I was in Auburn my pastor there made a great sermon on the wrongs of homosexuality.

His first point was that homosexuality first and foremost hurts the homosexual.

It's very sad to me. I pray that God will allow me to show them true love and lead them to Christ.
 

cupotea

Puritan Board Junior
[quote:2ce4ce1679]Seriously, IS Jamie Lee Curtis a hermaphrodite?[/quote:2ce4ce1679]

Hermaphrodites are born without reproductive organs. A female looking hermaphrodite with male genitalia would not have testicles, nor would a male looking, female genitalia have ovaries. So I don't think Jamie Lee Curtis could be one, because she has children.

It is more and more common to find woman transgendering to men in the last few years.
 
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