The good and the bad of "Patriarchy"

[RamistThomist]

For older writers like Johnson and Gibbon, manly meant firm and resolved, not scotch and cigars. From Johnson's dictionary:

Ma'nly.
adj. [from man.]

Manlike; becoming a man; firm; brave; stout; undaunted; undismayed.
As did Æneas old Anchises bear,
So I bear thee upon my manly shoulders.
Shakespeare.

Let’s briefly put on manly readiness,
And meet i’ th’ hall together.
Shakespeare’s Macbeth.

I’ll speak between the change of man and boy
With a reed voice; and turn two mincing steps
Into a manly stride.
Shakesp. i Merchant of Venice.

Serene and manly, harden’d to sustain
The load of life, and exercis’d in pain.
Dryden’s i Juv.

See great Marcellus! how inur’d in toils,
He moves with manly grace.
Dryden’s i Æn.

 

[Pergamum]

I won't answer for Jacob, but I have something to toss out there along those lines:

Who was more of a man, Arnold Schwarzenegger or C.S. Lewis?

Who was the better fighter?

Awwnald has done more good for me than Lewis in my life. But Lewis has a swift uppercut.

 

[Pergamum]

They define masculinity in a rigidly narrow way. Don't get me wrong. I am all for strength. I can do insane acrobatic feats with my shoulders and back. They would have a problem with the Patriarch (!) Jacob who stayed inside all day and cooked.

Admit it. All your photos are photoshopped Mr Kettlebell!

 

[Pergamum]

I think that this point is very important. While I am all for encouraging physical fitness we have to realise that not all men are cut out to be highly muscular. They may, however, make up for it in terms of moral and intellectual testosterone.

Is that another word for Nerd?

 

[Pergamum]

I diet and exercise but I don't think it makes me more manly than the guy who has a donut for breakfast and rarely excersises.

oh, but I think it does. It is hard to convince others you are manly if you are soft and pudgy and lack any grit for physical endurance. I think many church folks over-react against "machismo" because they are fat, soft, and weak but still want to lie to themselves and call themselves manly even if they have moobs. Fat, soft, and weak is not manly.

 

[No one]

I think that this point is very important. While I am all for encouraging physical fitness we have to realise that not all men are cut out to be highly muscular. They may, however, make up for it in terms of moral and intellectual testosterone.

And I appreciate that because I'm just not a person who can study all day but there are others who can. Every man is different.

 

[ZackF]

F

For older writers like Johnson and Gibbon, manly meant firm and resolved, not scotch and cigars. From Johnson's dictionary:

Ma'nly.
adj. [from man.]

Manlike; becoming a man; firm; brave; stout; undaunted; undismayed.
As did Æneas old Anchises bear,
So I bear thee upon my manly shoulders.
Shakespeare.

Let’s briefly put on manly readiness,
And meet i’ th’ hall together.
Shakespeare’s Macbeth.

I’ll speak between the change of man and boy
With a reed voice; and turn two mincing steps
Into a manly stride.
Shakesp. i Merchant of Venice.

Serene and manly, harden’d to sustain
The load of life, and exercis’d in pain.
Dryden’s i Juv.

See great Marcellus! how inur’d in toils,
He moves with manly grace.
Dryden’s i Æn.

Horiatus at the Bridge comes to mind.

 

[Pergamum]

F

Horiatus at the Bridge comes to mind.

Why was he at the bridge?

 

[AnotherDaniel]

oh, but I think it does. It is hard to convince others you are manly if you are soft and pudgy and lack any grit for physical endurance. I think many church folks over-react against "machismo" because they are fat, soft, and weak but still want to lie to themselves and call themselves manly even if they have moobs. Fat, soft, and weak is not manly.

Very true. Lack of mastery over ones self is not manly at all.

In the end, western church and society hasn't been destroyed by men seeking to be "manly" but rather by men abdicating their "manly" responsibilities to lead in the family, church and society. Im much more worried about the feminization of the church than I am about 20 dudes on the internet taking "being manly" too far.

To summarize, Biblical Patriarchy is good and necessary. Don't be scared from using terms because culture hates them and a few people take them to extremes.

 

[No one]

Why was he at the bridge?

To get to the other side maybe?

 

[ZackF]

To get to the other side maybe?

Stopping others from getting to the other side actually.

 

[Pergamum]

FOLLOW-UP TO OP:

When it comes to masculinity and patriarchy, what authors are doing it right and what authors should we avoid?

 

[Boreal]

FOLLOW-UP TO OP:

When it comes to masculinity and patriarchy, what authors are doing it right and what authors should we avoid?

Durable Trades - Rory Groves
Man of the House - C.R. Wiley

Check them out.

 

[arapahoepark]

FOLLOW-UP TO OP:

When it comes to masculinity and patriarchy, what authors are doing it right and what authors should we avoid?

Good question. Truthfully I am not sure if there's a lot that don't have some baggage by importing generally middle to upper class ideals of a certain geographic region from a generation or two before the writers themselves.
I'd be interested to hear what others have to say though.

 

[py3ak]

It would probably be helpful to distinguish godliness, leadership, and lifestyle. There is a need for thinking about all three. The Bible will teach everything necessary about godliness, many general lessons about leadership, and will have a distinct bearing on at least some elements of lifestyle. But any attempt to treat those three areas without differentiation brings about a number of risks. High on that list would be legalism, where things that are by no means necessary are made essential to a masculine Christian identity. There's the danger of displacement, where masculine Christian identity becomes something more than, "I'm striving to be a godly man" and the masculine part is emphasized to the diminution of general virtue. There's the danger of preparing an identity crisis for yourself, if your masculine identity is tied up in a particular lifestyle--many circumstantial changes would then put that self-image at considerable risk.

In terms of lifestyle, there is something of a contemporary vacuum that can't be filled up just with Bow Tied Bull or The Art of Manliness. Historical sources can be valuable here, if someone has enough common sense to adapt them to contemporary circumstances. Biographies and autobiographies, diaries, letters, observant novels, and essays can all give some historical perspective and vivid example of masculinity in action, for both negative and positive examples. One can think of J.C. Ryle's Thoughts for Young Men; of Henry Venn's Letters, especially those to his son; of Addison's The Spectator; of Trollope's Palliser novels; of Dr. Johnson's Rambler and Idler; of Sir Francis Bacon's Essays; of biographies of those with considerable achievements; of the Instructions of Hardjedef, Ptahhotep, or Merikare (and of manuals of virtue and books of instruction more generally from many ages and climes). Moby Dick, War & Peace, or The Great God's War will all do something towards this end. The material does exist for those willing to undertake the labor of discovering, digesting, and adapting it from its repositories.

And before I'm misunderstood, obviously reading alone isn't enough; there is a need for thought and practice, and wherever possible part of that practice ought to be significant physical activity.

 

[Deleted member 11889]

Py3ak, if I may piggyback on your excellent list of resources that I plan to look up, Sprague's Letters to Young Men is worthy of esteemed mention; it has been an encouragement to me each time I've read it.

 

[MountainPilgrim]

Is feminization of the church cause for concern? Certainly. I think one would be hard-pressed to find any member of PB who would disagree. However, I contend that it is a symptom of doctrinal infidelity rather than the cause.

The issue is not that women or effeminate men have overtaken the church and redirected its focus, but rather that men of the church have been too often willing to allow the culture to dictate the church's agenda, and thus readily abandon or set-aside orthodoxy in order to address whatever cultural issue most concerns them.

I am growing increasingly frustrated with how many Brothers I have seen who are willing to ignore or dismiss the highly questionable (at best) doctrines and practices of particular individuals or groups simply because, "They are fighting the good fight and are on our side." The compromise of important doctrine and practice for the sake of a particular agenda is exactly the cause for heterodoxy in the church. This is not unique to the "liberal" or the "conservative," as each have allowed the world to dictate the church's agenda, whether in support of the culture or in reaction against it. As each error is simply one side of the same coin, we should not be surprised when the "hyper-masculinity" fad leads to doctrinal compromise that is just as destructive as the "feminization" to which it is reacting.

The church's biblical agenda has not changed since its institution by Christ. When we adjust our aim in reaction against, or support of, the culture's desires, we fail to remain faithful to that which the Lord called His church to do.

On a personal note, I check many of the boxes that would fit the common definition of "manliness." But given the choice between a truly masculine man of questionable doctrine and practice, and one who is perhaps not as masculine as I would prefer, yet who faithfully preaches the Gospel, properly administers the Sacraments, and practices biblical Church Discipline, I will take the latter.

So, to the OP, the topic of feminism and patriarchalism in the church is indeed important, and worthy of discussion. Indeed, there are a great many issues of concern to the health of the church for which we can and should faithfully seek biblical answers. But we should take great care to avoid compromising important doctrines in order to address said issues. Feminism and hyper-masculinity/patriarchalism are both denials of God's sovereign design and creational order, and each is as guilty of doctrinal error as the other. The answer to the problem of feminism in the church is not the recovery of "masculinity," but rather the recovery of the faithful preaching and teaching of God's Word as the only authority for life and godliness. Sola Scriptura.

 

[Christopher Robin]

I grew up in foster care. By the time I had gotten married I still had no idea how to "do manhood." So I confided in one whose wife and kids adored him, loved and followed Christ, and whose house was in order. I literally became his disciple for a couple of years and learned about Christian manhood from a man who exemplified it. I think this is one area where the local churches may really be lacking. "Men's fellowship dinners" are no substitute for men discipling other men in the skills and strengths and graces of Christian manhood.

 

[B.L.]

even if they have moobs.

I had been searching for an accurate name for my prized possessions. I was content with "pectoralis major and minor lying in ambush", but moobs is much simpler and has a nice ring to it.

 

[ChristianLibertarian]

A brother asked me what I thought about Patriarchy. I was hoping the PB could help.

I answered I both loved and hated it. There are good and bad examples. My own view is that I don't really like any of the current labels. Egalitarianism, Complementarianism, and Patriarchalism all seemed to come into use within the last 30 years. That is troubling.

I have answered others that I like whatever was practiced on Little House on the Prairie by Ma and Pa Ingalls. I would call myself a Traditionalist.

What are your thoughts?

Patriarchy today, patriarchy tomorrow, patriarchy forever. Scripture is abundantly clear on this matter.

 

[Ben Zartman]

God tells Job: "Gird up thy loins now like a man."
Manliness is taking responsibility, and behaving in such a way that you can take responsibility without undue shame (I say "undue" because at the end of the day, like David we will fail; like Isaiah, all our right works as no better than filthy rags. But at the end of the day, when asked "why did you do that or this, however imperfectly?" we should be able to point to Scripture and say "because it is here written.")
Manliness is doing the duties prescribed in Scripture for a man to do. There is much instruction, for men both married and unwed.

 

[RamistThomist]

Some penultimate thoughts:

1) Don't commit the word = concept fallacy. If patriarchy is a univocal term, then you might find yourself on the same side as Pelagians like the Pearls. Moreover, some internet patriarchalists (who are single, btw) say everyone who disagrees with them is a feminist.

2) As to reading material, it's really simple. Don't be a blue-haired Tumblrista on one hand, and don't be a weirdo cult-follower on the other.

 

[Andrew35]

2) As to reading material, it's really simple. Don't be a blue-haired Tumblrista on one hand, and don't be a weirdo cult-follower on the other.

Don't start cults either, on the off-chance you're of that bent.

I have had the misfortune of meeting one of those once.

Thankfully, God had given him neither the talent nor the charisma to actually keep his followers. Over time, they would ineluctably grow disillusioned.

He also preferred young, attractive girls, which was probably a weakness.

 

[Boreal]

Video games are for children, not men. Full stop.

 

[No one]

Some penultimate thoughts:

1) Don't commit the word = concept fallacy. If patriarchy is a univocal term, then you might find yourself on the same side as Pelagians like the Pearls. Moreover, some internet patriarchalists (who are single, btw) say everyone who disagrees with them is a feminist.

2) As to reading material, it's really simple. Don't be a blue-haired Tumblrista on one hand, and don't be a weirdo cult-follower on the ot

Video games are for children, not men. Full stop.

I am too busy for those

 

[KMK]

True masculinity is defined by how many hours a day a man can stare at internet discussion boards without blinking.

 

[Boreal]

True masculinity is defined by how many hours a day a man can stare at internet discussion boards without blinking.

We stand in awe of your manliness.

 

[Pergamum]

Very true. Lack of mastery over ones self is not manly at all.

In the end, western church and society hasn't been destroyed by men seeking to be "manly" but rather by men abdicating their "manly" responsibilities to lead in the family, church and society. Im much more worried about the feminization of the church than I am about 20 dudes on the internet taking "being manly" too far.

To summarize, Biblical Patriarchy is good and necessary. Don't be scared from using terms because culture hates them and a few people take them to extremes.

Yes. Precisely. Manliness is mastery.

Before you master the world around you and lead your family you must be able to possess self-mastery. Self-mastery includes endurance and grit (both physical and mental), mastering your body, mind, and emotions, and mastering skills. There is a tendency to equate manliness with godliness in church circles, but I know many men in churches that are godly for the most part, but are still effeminate. There are many godly sissies in America. There are also many godless men who excel in manliness, such as the Spartans and Julius Caesar. King Leonidas must be admired, even if he worshipped pagan gods.

Then of course, I see the caricatures of manliness like the Reformed Dude-b.r.o guys who brag about whiskeys and cigars and beards make videos of themselves pouring gasoline on fields or stupid stuff like that. That is also not the answer. And of course, those well-groomed beards cannot really be called manly at all when they are all oiled up and carefully groomed like some girl would do.

Again, all the labels are new and current, whether it be egalitarian, complementarian, or patriarchal. In the past these labels did not exist because traditional gender roles were assumed. But modern people are confused and keep trying to re-invent the wheel. I think many in the Patriarchy Movement don't really know what manliness is and so operate by caricatures of manliness and it becomes very cringe-worthy.

 

[VictorBravo]

Video games are for children, not men. Full stop.

Heh. My Dad wouldn’t let me read comics lest they made me soft. I can only imagine what he would have said about kids and video games.

 

[MountainPilgrim]

I simply cannot understand why many feel so compelled to criticize how others spend their leisure time. Part of being a man is knowing not to criticize other men for having different preferences than you.