The Greatest Athletes Ever (?)

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Originally posted by Steadfast
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
Originally posted by Steadfast
Re: Football,

Barry Sanders was far greater than Lawrence Taylor, who, great though he was, may not even have been much better than Dick Butkus at the same position.

Dude - with all due Christian love and respect...you're insane! ;)

Barry Sanders was a great running back...but he wasn't even the greatest running back of all time. L.T. was unstoppable during his prime. L.T. was faster, more agile and more explosive than Butkus. He was the best linebacker to ever play the game (with all due respect to Sam Huff, Dick Butkus, Mike Singeltary, Corneilus Bennett and Ray Lewis).

My dear brother, I fear for your stability :)

Barry Sanders was hampered by two defects: He played on horrible teams throughout his career and he retired far too early. While the latter is his own fault, the former is something about which he could do very little.

Had Barry been able to play for a good team throughout his career, even if he nonetheless retired early, Emmit Smith would never even have gotten a sniff at the career rushing title.

In ten seasons (on a horrible team), barry rushed for 15,269 yards. That's an average of over 1500 yards a season. Had Barry played 5 more years and had he played (again) on a decent team, he'd have crushed both Payton and Smith in the standings.

Crushed them.

Four of those years he won the rushing title and three of them he placed second. He NEVER placed lower than fifth and that was in a year when he was injured for 5 games! He still rushed for 1115 yards!

A strong case can be made for the position that LT was the greatest Linebacker ever to play the game. I wouldn't even begin to argue too strongly to the contrary.

But Barry was not only the greatest running back ever to play the game, he was dominant every time he stepped onto the field and is, clearly, to anyone not biased by team preference, the Greatest Football Player, ever.

I am surprised no one has brought up Jerry Rice.

Here's an interesting site for football stats.

Okay...the gaunlet has been thrown down. Who is the greatest running back in history? One key fact to remember about Barry Sanders is that he played under the 16 game schedule. Jim Brown (who I consider to be the best ever) played under a 12 game schedule until 1961 when the schedule was increased to 14 games. That means Barry Sanders played 26 more games in that period of time. That is an entire season plus ten more games! Barry also played one more season than Jim Brown. So....just to compare apples to apples. Had Jim Brown played one more season, and we were to subtract the ten extra games per season that Barry Sanders played, what would the side by side comparison look like? Well in order not to confuse the matter, I decided to extrapolate Brown's numbers to 153 games (the number of games Barry Sanders played). Over those number of games, Brown would have rushed for 15,572 yards. Sanders rushed for 15,269. But the truth is that Brown accumulated his stats on less games because of the shorter seasons. Brown left the NFL on his own terms. He was healthy and probably could have continued playing for three or four more years. Arguably he could have broken the 20,000 yard mark.

Point? At best Sanders and Brown are a wash. At "best".....



Jim Brown Stats

+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1957 cle | 12 | 202 942 4.7 9 | 16 55 3.4 1 |
| 1958 cle | 12 | 257 1527 5.9 17 | 16 138 8.6 1 |
| 1959 cle | 12 | 290 1329 4.6 14 | 24 190 7.9 0 |
| 1960 cle | 12 | 215 1257 5.8 9 | 19 204 10.7 2 |
| 1961 cle | 14 | 305 1408 4.6 8 | 46 459 10.0 2 |
| 1962 cle | 14 | 230 996 4.3 13 | 47 517 11.0 5 |
| 1963 cle | 14 | 291 1863 6.4 12 | 24 268 11.2 3 |
| 1964 cle | 14 | 280 1446 5.2 7 | 36 340 9.4 2 |
| 1965 cle | 14 | 289 1544 5.3 17 | 34 328 9.6 4 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 118 | 2359 12312 5.2 106 | 262 2499 9.5 20 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+


Barry Sanders Stats

+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1989 det | 15 | 280 1470 5.2 14 | 24 282 11.8 0 |
| 1990 det | 16 | 255 1304 5.1 13 | 36 480 13.3 3 |
| 1991 det | 15 | 342 1548 4.5 16 | 41 307 7.5 1 |
| 1992 det | 16 | 312 1352 4.3 9 | 29 225 7.8 1 |
| 1993 det | 11 | 243 1115 4.6 3 | 36 205 5.7 0 |
| 1994 det | 16 | 331 1883 5.7 7 | 44 283 6.4 1 |
| 1995 det | 16 | 314 1500 4.8 11 | 48 398 8.3 1 |
| 1996 det | 16 | 307 1553 5.1 11 | 24 147 6.1 0 |
| 1997 det | 16 | 335 2053 6.1 11 | 33 305 9.2 3 |
| 1998 det | 16 | 343 1491 4.3 4 | 37 289 7.8 0 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 153 | 3062 15269 5.0 99 | 352 2921 8.3 10 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------

P.S. Also...look at the TD differential between the two. Extrapolated overe 153 games for Brown, it would have been remarkable.

[Edited on 10-28-2005 by BaptistInCrisis]
 
I agree that Sanders is great. But I don't think he was the best running back ever. Jim Brown also retired in his prime. And he did not play in 16 game seasons. The other fact is that the league expanded from Brown's day, thus watering down the talent.

If we don't count pure stats, I believe Gale Sayers was a better runner than both Brown and Sanders, and if he had as lengthy a career, it would have shown that.

As to Sander's playing on a bad team, he did not have it is as bad as O.J. - quick, name ANY player from the 1970s Bills! And O.J. ran for 2,000 yards in a 14 game season.
 
It is difficult to choose RBs. There are too many variables for me. At least we can narrow it down to the top five or so. I retract my previous statement about the two best and now say this: Brown, Payton, Sanders, and Sayers are *probably* the four best. :)

How about QBs? Johnny U. seems to always get on the list of top five or so. I think part of that is cuz he just got the job done. I'm not old enough to remeber him much. :) Marino seems to be up there. How about Elway? Montana sure could win. If P. Manning keeps it up, he'll probably be on the list too.

WRs? Rice.

DB? Lott.

BTW, I grew up in Central Cal, so am a life-long niners fan. :)
 
Originally posted by fredtgreco
I agree that Sanders is great. But I don't think he was the best running back ever. Jim Brown also retired in his prime. And he did not play in 16 game seasons. The other fact is that the league expanded from Brown's day, thus watering down the talent.

If we don't count pure stats, I believe Gale Sayers was a better runner than both Brown and Sanders, and if he had as lengthy a career, it would have shown that.

As to Sander's playing on a bad team, he did not have it is as bad as O.J. - quick, name ANY player from the 1970s Bills! And O.J. ran for 2,000 yards in a 14 game season.

Fred, Sayers was a tremendous player, but he only broke 1000 yards twice. Injuries did curtial what could have been a great career.

O.J.? His "if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit" aside...he was an awesome player. I never saw a running back as fluid as O.J. He was graceful and ballet-like in open field.
 
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
O.J.? His "if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit" aside...he was an awesome player. I never saw a running back as fluid as O.J. He was graceful and ballet-like in open field.

Plus, he always got his car rental after running through an airport. ;)
 
Originally posted by fredtgreco
I agree that Sanders is great. But I don't think he was the best running back ever. Jim Brown also retired in his prime. And he did not play in 16 game seasons. The other fact is that the league expanded from Brown's day, thus watering down the talent.

If we don't count pure stats, I believe Gale Sayers was a better runner than both Brown and Sanders, and if he had as lengthy a career, it would have shown that.

As to Sander's playing on a bad team, he did not have it is as bad as O.J. - quick, name ANY player from the 1970s Bills! And O.J. ran for 2,000 yards in a 14 game season.

I think Brown is the only player that can be compared to Sanders (as far as full career goes). And I think Sayers is the only player that can be compared to Sanders is pure ability (but his career was cut short.)

Looking at per/carry numbers basically neutralizes the 14 vs. 16 game issue. Brown was the highest ever with Sanders being second.

I would also put O.J.'s line and full back against anything Sanders ran behind. One interesting tidbit is that once O. J's Fullback went down his season (either the one right after his 2k season or the next one) went into the toilet.

Lastly, Sanders gained 2k in 14 games in 97 (after his first two games, he had 50 yards total. He ended the season over 2050.
 
Joe Montana was the best I ever saw at QB.

Having said that, Bret Favre should get a nod, but not as the best ever, in my opinion. I think Young, Elway and Marino were all better. But that's not based on stats, it's based on what I saw.

I am not sure what you judge a great quarterback by, sure stats are important, but no one could just take a game over (even when the 49ers were down by a couple of scores) like Joe Montana. It has to do with leadership, confidence, and just plain ability to win.

You could be ahead of the 49ers by two touchdowns with 2 minutes left on the clock, but if he had the ball in his hands, well, all bets were off.

Peyton Manning may yet prove to be the best.

And, for a guy without any apparently extraordinary natural talent but three SB rings, I think Tom Brady deserves some attention.

And, yes, to my everlasting confusion, I am a Lions fan.
 
Must I come into this thread and lay down the orthodox position on the matter? You guys are on milk when you should be on meat! *sigh*

The greatest athletes OVERALL are:

Jim Brown
Michael Jordan
Jim Thorpe
Lance Armstrong
Wayne Gretzky

By Sport:

Football:
QB = Brett Favre
RB = Jim Brown
WR = Jerry Rice
LB = Lawerence Taylor

Baseball:
P = Cy Young
C = <not sure>
1B = Lou Gerhig
2B = <not sure>
SS = Cal Ripken Jr.
3B = Brooks Robinson
OF = Willie Mays

Hockey:
Mario Lemieux
Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr

Basketball:
Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

:)
 
Man this was a tough call...there are/were so many great players and I am admittedly partial to those who I have seen and grew up with. I left out a lot of great ones.

Ok...it took me a while but here's my all-time baseball team:

c - Yogi Berra -Yeah, Bench pretty much changed the position but Yogi's got some serious numbers...
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG SLG
2120 7555 1175 2150 321 49 358 1430 704 415 30 .285 .482

1b- Eddie Murray -I wanted to pick Gehrig but I couldn't get past the visions of Murray single handedly destroying the Yankees so many times when he an Oriole...plus his numbers are phenomenal.
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG SLG
3,026 11,336 1,627 3,255 560 35 504 1,917 1,333 1,516 110 .287 .476

2b- Rod Carew -This was a tough choice I almost picked Joe Morgan but Carew's hitting sealed it for me. I'll give Morgan the nod for the best baseball commentator though -much better than Joe Buck the sports poser.
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG SLG
2469 9315 1424 3053 445 112 92 1015 1018 1028 353 .328 .429

ss- Derek Jeter -Yup, I think that when it's all said and done he'll be right there. No one can deny that he's the catalyst for all of the recent success in NY -we see it year in and year out. Check out his numbers after ten years (not counting this year).
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG SLG
1,366 5,513 1,037 1,734 283 42 150 693 559 972 201 .315 .385

3b- Mike Schmidt -Great defense and a big stick. I considered George Brett and ARod but I'm not persuaded ARod is a
true 3b plus I'm still hacked off about his big choke in this year's playoffs -even though he may well own the home run record when it's all done.
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG SLG
2404 8352 1506 2234 408 59 548 1595 1507 1883 174 .267 .527

lf- Ted Williams -I never saw the guy but look at those stats! Plus he missed 5 years serving in WWII. I also considered "Yaz" and Stan "the man."
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG SLG
2292 7706 1798 2654 525 71 521 1839 2021 709 24 .344 .634

cf- Willie Mays -Power and average and great D...even so, Ty Cobb's numbers are freakish and Dimaggio was no slouch either.
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG SLG
2992 10881 2062 3283 523 140 660 1903 1463 1526 338 .302 .557
 
rf- Hank Aaron -How can you not vote for a guy that has a candy bar named after him? Just don't tell Reggie and Babe.
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG SLG
3298 12364 2174 3771 624 98 755 2297 1402 1383 240 .305 .555

p- Nolan Ryan (r) -I think he was the best ever...Ron Luciano said when he was calling his games that it appeared that his 100+mph fastball "exploded" as it neared the catcher and he found himself guessing because he (sometimes) couldn't see it.
W L PCT G SH SV IP H R ER SO BB ERA
324 292 .526 807 61 3 5387 3923 2178 1911 5714 2795 3.19

p- Whitey Ford (l) -Clutch performances in big-time games.
W L PCT G SH SV IP H R ER SO BB ERA
236 106 .690 498 45   3171 2766 1107 967 1956 1086 2.74

p- Bob Gibson (r) -Any guy that is so dominant that he forces the league to lower the height of the pitchers mound gets my vote.
W L PCT G SH SV IP H R ER SO BB ERA
251 174 .591 528 56 2 3885 3279 1420 1258 3117 1336 2.91

rp- Mariano Rivera -Even though I'm still not so sure about all of this micromanaging of relievers nowadays...If the game is on the line and you've got an inning to go to ice the victory...who you gonna call?
 
Chris, you obviously were picking with your heart. How can you pick Berra over Piazza or Bench? And Eddie Murray? The best first baseman of all time? Over Gehrig? My goodness man! Look at the stats!
 
Yeah...I guess I do pick with my heart a bit. That's why I could never be a good gambler or prognosticator.

Also...this works both ways...in the 70's I so couldn't stand Pete Rose and the "big red machine" that I still have a hard time being "objective" about them.
Even so, let's not be so quick here...in his 19 year career Yogi anchored the Yankees in 14, count 'em, 14 World Series appearances (winning 10 of them) -out of which he was the AL MVP 3 times and voted to the All-Star squad 15 times. And his batting average is .019% better than Bench not to mention a higher slugging%. In his day, he was clearly the dominant catcher. Honestly, I never even considered Mike Pizza...unfortunately, any player that puts up big HR numbers in the last 15 or so 'roid years I am automatically suspicious of.

I almost went with Gehrig -his numbers are awesome (and so are Jimmy Foxx's) in fact there are plenty of pre WWII old-timers that have ridiculous numbers (like batting over .400 ...a lot! ,etc.) which I suspect is due to lesser pitching rather than better hitting. So my modern bias shows itself here. Also, there are ONLY three players who collected 3,000+ hits and 500+ home runs -Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Eddie Murray...that's good enough for me.
 
Reggie White wasn't bad either.

Too Tall

Billy "White Shoes" Johnson - in b/c the dancing

Lynn Swann
 
I thought this thread was about the greates athletes ever? There are quite a few athletes who had moment(s) of greatness. Look at Maris, he did not have Hall of Fame stats, yet he hit 62 home runs in a single season and broke the record of the "Babe." But you cannot call his entire career Hall of Fame material.
 
yes, dave winfield played football (tight end), basketball (forward) and baseball

jackie robinson was an all- american in tracknfield, football, basketball, and baseball

wilt played polo and volleyball after he retired

I have never seen a better running back than bo jackson and he was not a bad baseball player

michael jordan enough said
 
Bruce Lee

That man was in tremendous shape. Anyone who can fracture a rib while stretching and flexing...

KC
 
Originally posted by kceaster
Bruce Lee

That man was in tremendous shape. Anyone who can fracture a rib while stretching and flexing...

KC

I re-tore my meniscus in my knee while picking up my kid's toys. It was severe enough to require emergency surgery.

<------Greatest Athlete Ever

:p
 
Originally posted by trevorjohnson
Does competitive eating count?

I vote for that little Japanese guy who can down 39 hot dogs in 10 minutes!

...

That can't be good for the digestion...

[Edited on 3-1-2006 by satz]
 
Some great athletes (in no particular order):

Lance Armstrong
A.J. Foyt
Jack Nicklaus
Wilt Chamberlain
Arnold Swarzenegger
Jerry Rice
Wayne Gretzky
Michael Jordan
Eric Heiden
Carl Lewis
Mark Spitz
Jim Thorpe
Hicham El Gharouj
Pete Sampras
Bill Russell
Ty Cobb
 
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