C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
I'm currently reading Robert Letham's well done work, "The Holy Trinity". (Yes, yes, he's alive and I'm reading it - OK, yes, there are some good books written by non-dead guys.)
We are in Augustine's dealing with the relationship of the Trinity at page 188.
Augustine teaches:
The Spirit proceeds from the Father in principaliter, but in common with both the Father and Son.
That's confusing to some extent. here is his clarification:
Augustine carefully safeguards the place of the Father as the sole origin of the Holy Spirit. (PL 42:908-10). He does not assert that the Spirit proceeds from two sources, as if two parents. (Photius will allege that this is how the procession of the Spirit works, but Augustine does not allow for this.) The Father does not give the Spirit to the Son to pass on.; instead, he gives his own life to the Son, which includes the outpouring of the Spirit. In this way the Holy Spirit is eternally and simultaneously given by the Father and Son together.
Here is the "but": if the Spirit proceeds from the Father in principaliter, but in common with both the Father and Son, we are back to this confusion. The only way I can think to get around this, where the Scriptures demonstrate that the Father and the Son send the Spirit, is not to talk about this in "person" but in "substance." We are talking, then, about the "substance" of the Godhead and their eternal existence, not the personalities of the Father, Son and Spirit. But if we do that, then there seems to be a problem with assigning the same language that Jesus assigns this question when he says that the Father sends the Spirit and the Son sends the Spirit.
If the Father is "the beginning" (principium) of the Trinity, then any procession or begetting goes back to the Father.
Is this, then, simply speaking, "relationally?"
What do you think of this? Do you think this (Augustine) is confusing?
We are in Augustine's dealing with the relationship of the Trinity at page 188.
Augustine teaches:
The Spirit proceeds from the Father in principaliter, but in common with both the Father and Son.
That's confusing to some extent. here is his clarification:
Augustine carefully safeguards the place of the Father as the sole origin of the Holy Spirit. (PL 42:908-10). He does not assert that the Spirit proceeds from two sources, as if two parents. (Photius will allege that this is how the procession of the Spirit works, but Augustine does not allow for this.) The Father does not give the Spirit to the Son to pass on.; instead, he gives his own life to the Son, which includes the outpouring of the Spirit. In this way the Holy Spirit is eternally and simultaneously given by the Father and Son together.
Here is the "but": if the Spirit proceeds from the Father in principaliter, but in common with both the Father and Son, we are back to this confusion. The only way I can think to get around this, where the Scriptures demonstrate that the Father and the Son send the Spirit, is not to talk about this in "person" but in "substance." We are talking, then, about the "substance" of the Godhead and their eternal existence, not the personalities of the Father, Son and Spirit. But if we do that, then there seems to be a problem with assigning the same language that Jesus assigns this question when he says that the Father sends the Spirit and the Son sends the Spirit.
If the Father is "the beginning" (principium) of the Trinity, then any procession or begetting goes back to the Father.
Is this, then, simply speaking, "relationally?"
What do you think of this? Do you think this (Augustine) is confusing?