The Impeccability of Christ Harmonized with the Reality of His Temptations

Discussion in 'The Gospels & Acts' started by Ed Walsh, May 3, 2018.

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  1. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

    The soul of our Lord was immediately in the presence of God upon His death, just as would any believer's soul.

    The divine nature of Our Lord is not confined to His physical body, but is always omnipresent.

    Is that what you are actually asking?
     
  2. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Yes, but the divine/human would still be in His soul. correct?
     
  3. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

    God is not composed of parts, as in the essences of body and soul comprising the created moral agent.

    God is not composed of parts, possesses no additional substances, essences, and so on. Other than the accommodation of God to our finitude, the most anyone could properly claim is that the “soul” of God, is God himself . When God speaks of Himself in this way it is to affect us with apprehension of His concern about what He is speaking. This means of communication is directing our attention to our very cores, for we are that which our souls, i.e. our minds with all our affections, are engaged in.
     
  4. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Jesus has two souls, so when you say the divine/human is *in* his soul, which soul are you talking about? And what does it mean for a divine/human nature to be *in* something?

    Analogously, we can think of this in a problem with the two minds of Christ. Christ's divine mind stands in an asymmetrical accessing-relation to his human mind.
     
  5. timfost

    timfost Puritan Board Junior

    The human nature has both soul and body. The soul that was separated from the body was a human soul. The divine nature was never separated from His body even in death, though His human soul was separated from the body. In other words, this human soul was part of the human nature and was added to the divine. Hope that helps...
     
  6. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  7. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    Tim, I see where you're coming from. I think the critical point is to understand that saying that the human nature of Jesus considered abstractly is peccable is not by itself an affirmation of peccability, because the question is not about the peccability of abstract humanity, but the peccability of the concrete person. The assumed human nature was anhypostatic, and enhypostasized by the Logos himself. That's where the impossibility of peccability arises.

    It is the same human nature which has sinned; but it is the human nature of the Lord from heaven. That makes the 2nd Adam different from the first, and a strong doctrine of impeccability is dependent on that fact.

    (Of course there are other arguments in favor of impeccability, but they refer to the impossibility of the event of sin; the constitution of the theanthropic person is the argument that has to do with an intrinsic impossibility.)
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
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  8. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    For Jesus to have the same human nature as us it to have all the essential properties of what it means to be a human. Since we aren't Barthians or Gnostics, sin isn't essential to humanity.
     
  9. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Jesus was in the same humanity status as Adam was when he was created.
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    So His Deity stayed "alive" while His physical body had died, correct?
     
  11. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    God does not even have a soul, so would not Jesus have but one soul, with Both natures residing in it?
     
  12. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Oh boy
     
  13. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I was just asking, as God does not have a soul as we would define the term, correct?
     
  14. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Soul and mind are roughly synonymous. God has a mind. Therefore, God has a soul. You came very close just then to a form of Apollinarianism.
     
  15. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    God is Being though, and He has a mind, but not a soul in how we see humans having one, correct? The Father and the Holy Spirit have but the mind of God, Jesus had/has both the minds of God and Man, correct?
     
  16. gjensen

    gjensen Puritan Board Freshman

  17. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

  18. timfost

    timfost Puritan Board Junior

    Deity cannot die. His human body and soul were separated. His human soul was in heaven when separated from the body.
     
  19. timfost

    timfost Puritan Board Junior

    David,

    You may find this helpful from Belgic 18:

    "...conceived in the womb of the blessed virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit without the means of man; and did not only assume human nature as to the body, but also a true human soul, that He might be a real man. For since the soul was lost as well as the body, it was necessary that He should take both upon Him, to save both."
     
  20. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I thought that he went to Hades though before he was resurrected physically again?
     
  21. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Sure. But he isn't identical with his physical body.

    I see what you are saying now. That's an explosive area in 1 Peter. Great men have disagreed.
     
  22. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I think part of the problem was that some translations state that Jesus went down into Hell, but was actually Hades
     
  23. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    I'm not a great man, but didn't Jesus say to the thief on the cross that he would be with him today in paradise?
     
  24. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    I believe Christ is Omni-present.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  25. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    I am having a problem with this Two Souls of Jesus thing. I have a lot to learn. I remember reading old books that even said there were 9 parts to God. Even in the Hypostatic Union. It was really messed up. Yes, I believe Jesus had a soul as a man. He noted God would not leave his soul in Hell through prophecy.

    For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  26. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Yeah. There's also the preaching to the souls in prison and the difficulties around that text. And then there is the debate on where exactly "paradise" is, which doesn't necessarily contradict Christ's going to preach to the souls in prison.

    In any case, I'm humble about drawing conclusions.
     
  27. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Some hold that Paradise was a part of Hades , where the saved awaited the messiah to come and deliver them out from there.
     
  28. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    That is a debate about when the reuniting of the human Soul and resurrected body will take place.

    I am interested in this two souls of Jesus discussion. Do you sense that was answered? It is somewhat involved here.

    I am not addressing David. Sorry David.
    I am asking Jacob.
     
  29. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Orthodox Christology demands that Jesus have two minds (human and divine). That is a corollary to his having two natures. So far, so good.

    The trick with having two souls is that we don't normally think like that. But in most philosophical discussions, soul is roughly synonymous with the mind. But if we aren't careful, it gets difficulty.

    Thomism says the soul is the animating principle/rational form of the body. While I think Thomism is wrong on almost everything, that's not a problem. But how does Jesus' divine soul factor in? Is it, too, an animating principle? It's hard to see how, since God doesn't have a body to animate.
     
  30. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    That doesn't explain enough Jacob. Soul is defined by pneuma in many places. We have seen it more associated with spirit if I am not mistaken. Man is physical and soul. His mind is in there somewhere. I am not a trichotomist. Take your time.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
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