The Merger of Calvinism with Worldliness

Discussion in 'Ecclesiology' started by Blueridge Believer, Sep 24, 2009.

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  1. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    Well considering I spoke of myself, am I not capable of examining myself? For you to say that you are "enough of a Christian" to know such and such while others examine themselves and conclude otherwise, are you not saying that we are not "enough of a Christian" to come to the same conclusions? That's what it naturally implies to me. And that is in truly seeking to be charitable.

    I was not speaking of individuals who are supposedly dependent on a music style but of the morality of the style itself. Should the idols of modern music be brought into the sanctified churches of God? Of course not. And neither should the idols of traditional music. There are idols on every side of this debate. The issue is that even well-intentioned people are attempting to unbiblically bind the conscience of brothers and sisters.
  2. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Puritan Board Sophomore

    This argument is a popular one that has been the topic of many threads in different Christian forums. Seems like we never get anywhere as it seems to divide us. I for one feel we need to look at how anything done in a worship service that fails to bring glory to God, if it does fail then stop it (in my opinion).

    I feel many in hear are fearful that this entertainment style will lead our youth away from Biblical preaching and teaching and not that the music itself is bad or harmful. I've experienced a solid biblical church that began with introducing heavy metal music on Wednesday nights and before we knew it we had preaching that was watered down to keep the unbelievers in their seats. My daughter (about 12 at that time) had never heard this kind of music. Now she (at 19) is not coming to church and listens to this kind of music in secular forms. I believe we need to be very careful when trying to bring the church along side the culture.
  3. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    I'm sure you are, but I have said nothing about you or any other individual.
  4. TeachingTulip

    TeachingTulip Puritan Board Sophomore


    The "style" of the music causes dependency.

    This reality must acknowledged amongst modern man.

    Music acts as a drug to multitudes.

    And a "drug" is the practice of witchcraft, which is idolatry, if not worse.

    I don't think this is a matter of imposing legalism upon the sons of God or binding their consciences. It is more a matter of discerning who exist under the Covenant of Grace, while refusing the things of the world.

    I consider dependance and apologetics of any kind, founded upon secular music, to be a legitmate means of discerning, who indeed live according to God's holiness, grace, and separation from worldly idols.


    I hate to come across as OLD and UNPOPULAR!

    But I will . . .
  5. awretchsavedbygrace

    awretchsavedbygrace Puritan Board Sophomore

    I didnt mean to thank you, but there you go. :)

    I dont think that the heavy metal music was what caused the watered down messages. I would ask you to reconsider if the church was solid from the start.
  6. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Puritan Board Sophomore

    Please don't get me wrong. I don't think it was the heavy metal music either. I think it was the leadership of the church trying to be seeker sensitive. It could have easily been classical music or country or drama. My struggle is that I want to be seeker sensitive but not to the point where we must change the proclamation of the word to keep the unbelievers happy. This isn't the goal of worship is it?
  7. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    I ask this sincerely: do you have any studies or proof to show that the style of a rap song causes more dependency than classical music or another style? Also, would not this music be acceptable then in moderation, much like alcohol? This is where it primarily sounds like legalism. Why condemn it all when only too much is wrong?
  8. awretchsavedbygrace

    awretchsavedbygrace Puritan Board Sophomore

    Of course not.
  9. TeachingTulip

    TeachingTulip Puritan Board Sophomore

    I do not condemn music. I condemn human dependance upon music.

    Anything, apart from the Word of God, that acts to alleviate human misery, will in the end prove to be false and thereby, produce and result in a practice of idolatry.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2009
  10. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    So then you aren't against rap or a hip hop style of music as long as it doesn't serve to alleviate human misery? I agree. The same applies for classical, country, or any other kind.
  11. awretchsavedbygrace

    awretchsavedbygrace Puritan Board Sophomore

    Amen. Wouldn't you say that those who consider hiphop and rock "noise", are dependent on their type of music. That even when the gospel is being faithfully preached, in this type of music they will reject it because of its rythm. Are they also not being dependent on their music?
  12. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    John Kennedy provides a 19th century conservative Calvinist perspective on the Moody-Sankey introduction of music to further the gospel.

  13. TeachingTulip

    TeachingTulip Puritan Board Sophomore

    The core issue is dependance.

    Much of modern music is reflective of drug, moral, sexual, emotional, spiritual dependance.

    In other words,'s music is a highly addictive drug upon which multitudes are hooked.

    The church should be ready and willing to deal with this addiction, while refusing such dependancy within their midst.
  14. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    I haven't met anyone who lives like the Puritans did.

    How is rap in and of itself worldly? Where is his Scriptural support?

    I would have to agree that heavy metal (and I even like secular heavy metal music) doesn't belong in worship as it's not understandable/singable to all ppl and can create disorganization/confusion. But he cannot exclude contemporary music just bc it's contemporary. If it's solid, biblical doctrine they are singing, then he has no Scriptural support for excluding it (and I don't like contemporary Christian music really but it has nothing to do with what I like).

    I agree this is a problem.

    So he apparently doesn't like secular music this sounds charismatic to me. If the music doesn't have anything in it breaking God's laws, then making a law against it is a man-made law. Making man-made laws is placing one's self in the position of's legalism. Legalism helps self-righteous ppl to live up to a standard that they think is holy bc they can't live up to God's. One should concentrate on obeying the laws He has set forth instead of making up laws. Obviously, I'm not stating that secular music should be in worship. :)

    I like calm, frozen-chosen, hymnal singing myself, but I cannot tell another person that energetic, biblical singing is morally wrong in the worship service. The path of truth is narrow... go off too far in one direction you stray from RPW....go off too far in the other direction you hit legalism. We should be zealous to keep ourselves and our worship free from sin but also free from person preferences.
  15. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    I agree, Joshua; but at the point the arranged notes are called a specific genre which reflects a specific culture there are moral associations which cannot be divorced from the music.
  16. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    So you believe it's the person who is able to associate a certain genre of music with sin that makes it sinful? So is this what you are saying?.... person A has a history of sinful living which incorporated a certain genre of music and person B doesn't. Person B can use that same genre of music for worship but person A could not. This is a very isolated example as there would never be a group of only person A or person B....I only use it for example to understand what you are saying.
  17. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    Can the same be said for alcohol? There are obvious moral associations which cannot be divorced from alcohol (which is why we "drink but do not get drunk").
  18. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    I don't think it has anything to do with individuals; hence persons A and B are irrelevant to the discussion.

    2 Timothy 3:2-5 says, "For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." If this is the culture out of which specific genres of music have arisen then Christians should turn away from such music and not endorse these cultural forms. Take just one example -- "disobedient to parents." Specific musical styles have been marked as encouraging individual expression and showing disrespect to authority. Such a style in and of itself preaches immorality and should be rejected by those who are seeking to adorn the gospel of God their Saviour.
  19. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    I am already on record as advocating a cultural abstinence position.
  20. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    I see. Thank you.
  21. TeachingTulip

    TeachingTulip Puritan Board Sophomore

    I am aware I am not being paid much attention to . . .so I will repeat:

    The core issue being discussed is dependance.

    Music is not unlawful and alcohol is not unlawful. The problem is when people become dependant upon either, in order to function and be happy.

    Many people depend daily upon music filling their consciousness, and many people depend upon drugs and/or alcohol to fill their consciousness, and many people are addicted to sex to fill their conscious hours of every day.

    Are these dependancies to be allowed to affect church worship?
  22. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    Then my example of person A and person B would apply bc that's not what I get from even secular music. Growing up I was taught that secular music had hidden messages luring kids to do satanic acts etc. I wasn't taught that it promoted "disobedience to parents" so I don't have that associate with secular music whereas you do. So again it's subjective. It sounds like what you're saying is that music is bad based off of personal sinful experience and not on the actual sinfulness of the music i.e. the lyrics actually promoting disobedience to parents. There are songs which are sinful but it's the words which make them so. A beat or tone isn't sinful whereas words can be.
  23. Sonoftheday

    Sonoftheday Puritan Board Sophomore

    Brother I find your consistency honorable. I do not currently hold to the cultural abstinence position and I am often very flustered by the inconsistency amongst those who hold said position.
  24. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    Thank you. Although let me assure you that I have read your posts and I agree with you. I truly enjoy Christian rap and am greatly edified by it. However, I would be very uncomfortable about another person listening to Christian rap "just because" they were dependent on that style of music, and I don't think dependencies should dictate worship in any sense. My question you quoted was directed to Mr. Winzer in particular because his argumentation (a cultural abstinence position) is not necessarily what you are advocating here, if I am understanding you correctly. I apologize that you felt ignored.
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