Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
I found this brief article on The Most Predominant Sin of Reformed Christians? to be very useful. You may read it in a few minutes, which would be a very good use of your time.
The Most Predominant Sin of Reformed Christians? (RBO article)
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My experience, which is subjective, is that it is not a Reformed thing. They may be proud about different things than other Christians, but I think it is a Christian thing or just a people thing.
When it comes to knowledge making people proud as the main point in the OP, I can see why somebody might think of theology and doctrine lovers who have lots of book learning. But the most arrogant Christians I've known were charismatics with a direct hotline to God, with "words", and superior revelation to the lowly less spirit filled groups. They had "knowledge" about a lot of things straight from Lord and would not even consider they might be in deception.
Our most proud church experience was in SGM a long time ago. We were going there when Grudem's ST came out with a lot of support from them. As time went by we heard at least three times from the pulpit, a guest speaker and our own pastors, that SGM was the first group of churches since Acts to "do it right". We had the true doctrine of St Paul ie "Reformed" ( that's a broad term anymore; I would say Calvinist but not confessional) plus the gifts and power of the HS as continuationists/charismatics. We had it all. The Reformed did not have the presence and power of the HS like we did, and the charismatics were Arminian. We were special, superior, etc. Plus SGM had an apostolic team, with real apostles, for better edification of churches. So they claimed. And to top it off Mahaney hooked up with Piper who was sort of next to God, so SGM was the best in the world and the best for 2000 years plus buddies with Piper. Yuck. I can't believe we stayed as long as we did, but there were so many good people in our small group and the preaching was generally good, and it is hard to leave your church.
Hub and I had had so much other experience that we knew Presbyterians were not on some lower level. Not at all. And given the utter lack of emphasis at that time by Mahaney on either prayer or missions, we were getting itchy about being there at all anyway and certainly did not regard him as superior. God has seen fit to deal with that organization and it is a shadow of what it once was.
But well after we left, for much longer than a decade, Mahaney and Josh Harris were top billing with all the celebrity speakers, and drawing in countless young folks to the best denomination in 2000 years, not only doing it right but also passionate, radical, and all those adjectives that the arrogant use to subtly let you know how much you should look to them. And it seemed like so many big name Reformed guys just didn't see it at all.
Maybe this was a long winded post, lol, but some confessional Reformed can be the finest humble folks you ever met. I've known plenty. And I've seen some arrogance as well. Maybe it is indeed the most predominant sin among the Reformed, but if I had to bet my life I'd bet elsewhere on what Christian groups have it the worst.
I figure God is shaking the world and the nation and it is going to get worse; hopefully we will all end up greatly humbled.
When it comes to knowledge making people proud as the main point in the OP, I can see why somebody might think of theology and doctrine lovers who have lots of book learning. But the most arrogant Christians I've known were charismatics with a direct hotline to God, with "words", and superior revelation to the lowly less spirit filled groups. They had "knowledge" about a lot of things straight from Lord and would not even consider they might be in deception.
Our most proud church experience was in SGM a long time ago. We were going there when Grudem's ST came out with a lot of support from them. As time went by we heard at least three times from the pulpit, a guest speaker and our own pastors, that SGM was the first group of churches since Acts to "do it right". We had the true doctrine of St Paul ie "Reformed" ( that's a broad term anymore; I would say Calvinist but not confessional) plus the gifts and power of the HS as continuationists/charismatics. We had it all. The Reformed did not have the presence and power of the HS like we did, and the charismatics were Arminian. We were special, superior, etc. Plus SGM had an apostolic team, with real apostles, for better edification of churches. So they claimed. And to top it off Mahaney hooked up with Piper who was sort of next to God, so SGM was the best in the world and the best for 2000 years plus buddies with Piper. Yuck. I can't believe we stayed as long as we did, but there were so many good people in our small group and the preaching was generally good, and it is hard to leave your church.
Hub and I had had so much other experience that we knew Presbyterians were not on some lower level. Not at all. And given the utter lack of emphasis at that time by Mahaney on either prayer or missions, we were getting itchy about being there at all anyway and certainly did not regard him as superior. God has seen fit to deal with that organization and it is a shadow of what it once was.
But well after we left, for much longer than a decade, Mahaney and Josh Harris were top billing with all the celebrity speakers, and drawing in countless young folks to the best denomination in 2000 years, not only doing it right but also passionate, radical, and all those adjectives that the arrogant use to subtly let you know how much you should look to them. And it seemed like so many big name Reformed guys just didn't see it at all.
Maybe this was a long winded post, lol, but some confessional Reformed can be the finest humble folks you ever met. I've known plenty. And I've seen some arrogance as well. Maybe it is indeed the most predominant sin among the Reformed, but if I had to bet my life I'd bet elsewhere on what Christian groups have it the worst.
I figure God is shaking the world and the nation and it is going to get worse; hopefully we will all end up greatly humbled.
The most arrogant man I ever met was a self-described Classical Arminian. An atheist friend comes in a close second.
My real-life experience with Reformed Christians has been limited, but I'll say that that experience has not left me with any sense that Reformed Christians struggle with pride any more than other professing Christians. Quite the opposite, in fact. For instance, at an evangelical church I used to attend, the worshippers really believed they had license to worship God practically however they wished. They would balk at any other opinion.
It true that the Doctrines of Grace give us cause to be more humbled, but more often than not I find that it is non-Reformed pointing the accusing finger at the Reformed not because we are especially prideful, but because they don't like what we have to say, no matter how gently we might say it.
My real-life experience with Reformed Christians has been limited, but I'll say that that experience has not left me with any sense that Reformed Christians struggle with pride any more than other professing Christians. Quite the opposite, in fact. For instance, at an evangelical church I used to attend, the worshippers really believed they had license to worship God practically however they wished. They would balk at any other opinion.
It true that the Doctrines of Grace give us cause to be more humbled, but more often than not I find that it is non-Reformed pointing the accusing finger at the Reformed not because we are especially prideful, but because they don't like what we have to say, no matter how gently we might say it.
ChristianReadYourBible
Puritan Board Freshman
Calvinist "cage stage" anyone?
Username4000
Puritan Board Freshman
Why isn’t it proud when a synergist calls our God a “cosmic rapist” or at minimum says “I could never believe in a God who treats his people like robots”. Isn’t that contemptuous of our theology, tied with thinking your own is better?
Yeah, there are probably Reformed folk who get into fights within their own house eagerly, maybe over lapsarianism or something. But this doesn’t seem unique to us by any means.
Yeah, there are probably Reformed folk who get into fights within their own house eagerly, maybe over lapsarianism or something. But this doesn’t seem unique to us by any means.
retroGRAD3
Puritan Board Senior
I find this to be the much more common experience, especially, the "I could never believe in...". They then go on to condemn you to hell and say all other sorts of slander, idolatry (of their "free will"), and blasphemy about God. The saddest thing about that initial statement is that they are basically saying they don't believe in God as he is presented in the Bible.
Solparvus
Puritan Board Senior
Is there a tinge of, “I think you meant somebody else” in these responses? *
A venture into certain Reformed Facebook groups will vindicate the OP well enough. And especially an examination of our own hearts.
Litmus test: how many times do you check to see the reactions to your PB posts? Or wonder that people were not floored and overawed at your extraordinary Biblical insight into a matter? And how much do you need to wrestle to sincerely says, “By grace alone / with the Lord’s help”?
*except you, Grant, thou whose name cannot be tagged. Keep up the brimming example.
A venture into certain Reformed Facebook groups will vindicate the OP well enough. And especially an examination of our own hearts.
Litmus test: how many times do you check to see the reactions to your PB posts? Or wonder that people were not floored and overawed at your extraordinary Biblical insight into a matter? And how much do you need to wrestle to sincerely says, “By grace alone / with the Lord’s help”?
*except you, Grant, thou whose name cannot be tagged. Keep up the brimming example.
retroGRAD3
Puritan Board Senior
I don't think anyone was saying that there are not reformed folks with spiritual pride. I myself pray against it in myself every night. I think the main point is pride is a human problem.
Solparvus
Puritan Board Senior
What I’m driving at, is that RBO and OP’s main point is how pride can dominate in Reformed circles where we believe we have it right. Once we drag Arminians into it, we fall outside of the scope of original intent of the thread. Which is why I think the main point and application is missed.
So I don’t think the point is that Reformed persons are more prideful than others, or that others cannot be unbelievably prideful. The point of the OP and RBO is the predominance of pride within Reformed circles, leaving the non-Reformed out of the group sampling.
retroGRAD3
Puritan Board Senior
Ok I understand. I would also echo though that at the OP church I attend, I have not met one of these individuals. If we are talking about internet groups, then that is a whole different ballgame.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Jake has understood the original intent of both the OP and the article to which it links. No one is saying that there is not much pride in non-Reformed circles as well, but merely that it is particularly out of place among Reformed believers.
No, this sweeping statement is precisely what I do not accept.
Now, if we are discussing "Reformed" Facebook groups, then I can't say I have much of my own experience to offer. But why should Facebook groups be taken as representative of Reformed Christians as a whole? (Wouldn't it be more reasonable to suggest that certain personalities are attracted to debating on social media?)
Well, that has me confused. Daniel said:
You don't agree with that? Meaning pride has a place among Reformed believers?
My mistake. I misread the sentence to mean that pride takes a "disproportionate place" among Reformed believers.
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