The online Christian community driving me MAD!

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[quote:1eaaa2de17][i:1eaaa2de17]Originally posted by raderag[/i:1eaaa2de17]
[quote:1eaaa2de17][i:1eaaa2de17]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:1eaaa2de17]
[quote:1eaaa2de17][i:1eaaa2de17]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:1eaaa2de17]
Here we go... [/quote:1eaaa2de17]

Adam,

I told you so.

I am sure Jesus was well acquainted with the Book of Proverbs.

(Prov. 20:1)
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

(Prov. 23:31-33)
"[31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. [33] Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things."

Anyway the subject of alcohol has been exhaustively discussed a couple of weeks ago on another thread. However the conclusions seems to have been based on human reasoning and not on the authority of scripture.

Alcohol is a mind altering drug, no matter how you put it. That is why it is addictive and very difficult to quit the habit without the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have contaminated his brain with such drugs and it is grevious to claim that he could have.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever] [/quote:1eaaa2de17]

No offense, but no reasonable Bible Scholar contends that Jesus did not drink wine. The whole idea didn't even come about until the 18th century or so.

[quote:1eaaa2de17]Luke 7:33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, "He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, "Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' 35But wisdom is justified by all her children." [/quote:1eaaa2de17]

What do you think Jesus was drinking here to be called a drunkard? It wasn't diet coke. [/quote:1eaaa2de17]

Notice, who was he talking to and who was referring to him as a glutton and a winebibbler? The Pharisees. They also called him a false teacher. They took every opportunity to mock him and you take the word of the Pharisees that he was a drunkard.
 
And a SELF-PROCLAIMED drinker of alcohol.

That's one of the most amazing things on the topic- Jesus didn't refute that he drank alcohol with sinners! What kind of miracle-working rabbi was he! Sheesh. Gets me mad just thinking about it.


Seriously, Jesus knew who He was at all times and alcohol didn't diminish His greatness. His "Being" left people unable to stand against him when he was doing right ---- which was all the time. He had to have alcoholic wine and be with sinners and talk with them and show them God's love toward them. I am firm in that.
 
[quote:7e2ab75677][i:7e2ab75677]Originally posted by staythecourse[/i:7e2ab75677]
That's one of the most amazing things on the topic- Jesus didn't refute that he drank alcohol with sinners! What kind of miracle-working rabbi was he! Sheesh. Gets me mad just thinking about it.


Seriously, Jesus knew who He was at all times and alcohol didn't diminish His greatness. His "Being" left people unable to stand against him when he was doing right ---- which was all the time. He had to have alcoholic wine and be with sinners and talk with them and show them God's love toward them. I am firm in that. [/quote:7e2ab75677]

He also hung met with a prostitute, does that make him a John?

Of course not!
 
I am NOT an arguer of logic, Brent and fail quick at it but

A. Jesus drank alcohol with sinners
B. Jesus admitted it
C. The Pharisees used the fact that he did this freely to accuse him falsely that he was more than a drinker but a drunkard.
D. Jesus didn't sin with the sinners.

Frankly - I am very surprised Jesus drank alcohol because I would think that based on Proverbs he as a/THE king would stay away from it. But becuase he did drink alcoholic beverages I have a clearer understanding of the Proverbs verses brought up before. Pain and despair can be remedied with a non-abusive amount of alcohol. That is my understanding of it so far.

I don't take this lightly either - I am on the road to be a pastor or teacher so I better get my ducks in a row ahead of time.

I will post on the other tread if need be but I'm lazy. Do you want to go to that thread Brent?
 
[quote:44de5d0977][i:44de5d0977]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:44de5d0977]
[quote:44de5d0977][i:44de5d0977]Originally posted by raderag[/i:44de5d0977]
[quote:44de5d0977][i:44de5d0977]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:44de5d0977]
[quote:44de5d0977][i:44de5d0977]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:44de5d0977]
Here we go... [/quote:44de5d0977]

Adam,

I told you so.

I am sure Jesus was well acquainted with the Book of Proverbs.

(Prov. 20:1)
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

(Prov. 23:31-33)
"[31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. [33] Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things."

Anyway the subject of alcohol has been exhaustively discussed a couple of weeks ago on another thread. However the conclusions seems to have been based on human reasoning and not on the authority of scripture.

Alcohol is a mind altering drug, no matter how you put it. That is why it is addictive and very difficult to quit the habit without the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have contaminated his brain with such drugs and it is grevious to claim that he could have.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever] [/quote:44de5d0977]

No offense, but no reasonable Bible Scholar contends that Jesus did not drink wine. The whole idea didn't even come about until the 18th century or so.

[quote:44de5d0977]Luke 7:33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, "He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, "Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' 35But wisdom is justified by all her children." [/quote:44de5d0977]

What do you think Jesus was drinking here to be called a drunkard? It wasn't diet coke. [/quote:44de5d0977]

Notice, who was he talking to and who was referring to him as a glutton and a winebibbler? The Pharisees. They also called him a false teacher. They took every opportunity to mock him and you take the word of the Pharisees that he was a drunkard. [/quote:44de5d0977]

Once again, your argument that Jesus didn't drink alchohol is a very new one(18th century). And your take on this verse is also not historically accepted.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by raderag]
 
[quote:cd6aa55b46][i:cd6aa55b46]Originally posted by staythecourse[/i:cd6aa55b46]
I am NOT an arguer of logic, Brent and fail quick at it but

A. Jesus drank alcohol with sinners
B. Jesus admitted it
C. The Pharisees used the fact that he did this freely to accuse him falsely that he was more than a drinker but a drunkard.
D. Jesus didn't sin with the sinners.

Frankly - I am very surprised Jesus drank alcohol because I would think that based on Proverbs he as a/THE king would stay away from it. But becuase he did drink alcoholic beverages I have a clearer understanding of the Proverbs verses brought up before. Pain and despair can be remedied with a non-abusive amount of alcohol. That is my understanding of it so far.

I don't take this lightly either - I am on the road to be a pastor or teacher so I better get my ducks in a row ahead of time.

I will post on the other tread if need be but I'm lazy. Do you want to go to that thread Brent? [/quote:cd6aa55b46]

I've said my peace on the subject and contend that "Christians" are only trying to justify their lustful habits by reading into these statements that Jesus was a drunkard, inspite of scriptural admonistions against the 'social' use of alcoholic beverages.

Most alcoholics started out as moderate social drinkers.

Also the scripture teaches that the drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:10)

The change that takes place in a true Spirit filled Christian's life is a new heart which generates a new desire. It generates repentence to turn from the rudiments of this world that leads to destruction.

People on this board can condemn Arminians all they want to, but they cannot refute the power and testimony of a transformed life through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit of a genuinely born-again Christian.
 
[quote:6353a3eb34][i:6353a3eb34]Originally posted by Bladestunner316[/i:6353a3eb34]
Does anybody have an email address to the mods or webmaster of timebombers forum?

blade [/quote:6353a3eb34]

I just did a search and found their forum. I don't think they have moderators. I'll do a host search to see if they have contact in and will PM you.


{edit} Well that didn't work too well.

Administrative Contact:
., . [email protected]
.
., . 00000
US
0000000000

Technical Contact:
., . [email protected]
..
., . 00000
US
0000000000


[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever]
 
[quote:4ecbcd4018][i:4ecbcd4018]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:4ecbcd4018]


I've said my peace on the subject and contend that "Christians" are only trying to justify their lustful habits by reading into these statements that Jesus was a drunkard, inspite of scriptural admonistions against the 'social' use of alcoholic beverages.[/quote:4ecbcd4018]

If that be the case (justifying lustful habits) then it is a sin. No one is saying that He was a drunkard, but that he was drinking wine and from that made the false deduction that he was drunk.

[quote:4ecbcd4018]

Most alcoholics started out as moderate social drinkers.

Also the scripture teaches that the drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:10)

The change that takes place in a true Spirit filled Christian's life is a new heart which generates a new desire. It generates repentence to turn from the rudiments of this world that leads to destruction. [/quote:4ecbcd4018]

That is a good saying, and a true one, but in this context it is not necessarily opposed to alcohol intake.

[quote:4ecbcd4018]People on this board can condemn Arminians all they want to, but they cannot refute the power and testimony of a transformed life through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit of a genuinely born-again Christian. [/quote:4ecbcd4018]

Nobody would even try to refute that. Unless I missed something somewhere, I don't see the connection between your last paragraph and the point at hand. However, assuming the connection I would say that you have a point with respect for personal abstention from alcohol. If someone has been an alcoholic then they probably do not need to be moderately intaking alcohol, especially if they were to show [i:4ecbcd4018]power and testimony of a transformed life through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit of a genuinely born-again Christian.[/i:4ecbcd4018]

Compared to other message boards, y'all are acting within the bounds of cordiality. I have yet to see childish name-calling or straw-men thrown around.
 
Jacob,

The problem I am seeing here is that too many Christians here are trying to claim that Jesus endorses the same lifestyle that has left more people dead along the US highways, busted up more homes, resulted in battered wives and children.

The scriptural admonitions in Proverbs should be sufficient enough to warrant against its use for social purposes. Plus the fact that those who become so adamant against those who try to promote abstinence from a scriptural foundation also tells me that there is something wrong with this picture.
 
[quote:e9cbf593da][i:e9cbf593da]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:e9cbf593da]
Oh come on Brent!

Surely you could see Jesus coming over to your house for the Super bowl and cracking open a Bud as he kicked back to watch right?:wink: [/quote:e9cbf593da]

Yep I sure could.
 
[quote:aad44ff28d][i:aad44ff28d]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:aad44ff28d]
[quote:aad44ff28d][i:aad44ff28d]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:aad44ff28d]
Oh come on Brent!

Surely you could see Jesus coming over to your house for the Super bowl and cracking open a Bud as he kicked back to watch right?:wink: [/quote:aad44ff28d]

Yep I sure could. [/quote:aad44ff28d]

Really?:no:
 
[quote:726a071f66][i:726a071f66]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:726a071f66]
Jacob,

The problem I am seeing here is that too many Christians here are trying to claim that Jesus endorses the same lifestyle that has left more people dead along the US highways, busted up more homes, resulted in battered wives and children.
[/quote:726a071f66]

Come on now, do you think that is the beers fault? You are making a totally unscritpual argument. Just because there are abusers of alchohol, doesn't make it a sin.
 
[quote:c2eaef2cd7]
Most alcoholics started out as moderate social drinkers
[/quote:c2eaef2cd7]
And most rapists start out by enjoying monogomous, heterosexual sex. Hey, same with those who frequent strip joints and hookers. Married men frequent those most often, so i think marriage and heterosexual sex is clearly sin. Remember, Paul said it's better to be unmarried. I have established this doctrine biblically!
[quote:c2eaef2cd7]
33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' [b:c2eaef2cd7]34The Son of Man came eating and drinking,[/b:c2eaef2cd7][/quote:c2eaef2cd7]
Cajun....you do realize that Jesus says this, right? It's the pharisees who say this:
[quote:c2eaef2cd7]
'Here is a glutton and a drunkard
[/quote:c2eaef2cd7]

I will be the one to say taking the approach of abstinence in regards to alcohol is fine....however, the arena you take it to is legalism. You are not distinguishing between what is lawful and in fact GOOD from a sinful indulgence in alcohol. I wasn't trying to be crude with my first comment on this post. It may be that you don't want to drink alcohol...fine. But please don't contort the scriptures to fit your [i:c2eaef2cd7]higher[/i:c2eaef2cd7] lifestyle approach.

Remember...there was a fall and sin entered the world. You may want to defend your legalism with the "your body is a temple" shpeal, but it just doesn't work. Because of the Fall NOTHING is perfectly good for you. You can have too much of one mineral or vitamin and it will kill you. Things that are normally good for you can be bad if taken too much of. There are benefits to drinking alcohol...maybe not too much health-wise, but there are some. But i don't even need to justify it that way. Jesus said He came eating AND DRINKING and the [b:c2eaef2cd7]Pharisees drew their own conclusions[/b:c2eaef2cd7].

[quote:c2eaef2cd7]
The problem I am seeing here is that too many Christians here are trying to claim that Jesus endorses the same lifestyle that has left more people dead along the US highways, busted up more homes, resulted in battered wives and children.
[/quote:c2eaef2cd7]
You do realize its the prohibitionist spirit that helps create a culture that views alcohol as "naughty pleasure", right? I imagine that causes more abuse than those who enjoy alcohol as our Lord did. The culture that you hate so much is a product of the abolition. It's shaped how people view alcohol and how it's to be used.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by Craig]
 
I don't see the point in debating this again and again. I personally do not know if Jesus drank alcohol or not. But I believe firmly that he would not if He were to come today.
 
Adam,
that is speculation.

Abstaining from alcohol is fine.

Drinking alcohol is fine.

Getting drunk is not.
 
[quote:4253a41519][i:4253a41519]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:4253a41519]
I don't see the point in debating this again and again. I personally do not know if Jesus drank alcohol or not. But I believe firmly that he would not if He were to come today. [/quote:4253a41519]

:amen: and :amen:

Just goes to show that if you throw out a controversial subject on any forum, especially one that steps on their toes, you are bound to get feathers ruffled.
 
People will always strive as hard as they possibly can to justify the old nature and their dabbling in it. It reminds me of the quote by John Calvin:

"So indulgent is man towards himself, that, while doing evil, he always endeavours as much as he can to suppress the idea of sin."

Rather than supressing the source of the problem, man wishes to reconcile his Christian experience with the culture of unbelievers. As this happens, the vast majority of the church is subject to worldly shifts. The PCUSA is now allowing female preachers. This is in direct line of a movement started one-hundred-years ago by violent feminists who managed to infiltrate almost all of Western culture with the help of Liberalism. They have no scriptural support for such actions. Will we be surprised if, in 10 years, the Christian church is indifferent to the "reproductive rights" that this same group has successfully pushed some years ago?

Is it [i:572bbc0e99]the[/i:572bbc0e99] falling away? No one can say, but it is certainly [i:572bbc0e99]a[/i:572bbc0e99] falling away. As disciples of Christ we can simply say, in a spirit of humility, "Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." There is no reason or room for us to reconcile our lives with those of the world.

[Edited on 6-18-2004 by ServantoftheLamb]
 
[quote:48db68b49b][i:48db68b49b]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:48db68b49b]
[quote:48db68b49b][i:48db68b49b]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:48db68b49b]
Oh come on Brent!

Surely you could see Jesus coming over to your house for the Super bowl and cracking open a Bud as he kicked back to watch right?:wink: [/quote:48db68b49b]

Yep I sure could. [/quote:48db68b49b]
A beer? Maybe.
Watching the Superbowl? Not after last year :wink:
 
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