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Yes, Dr. Clark appears to be in the blogsphere equivolent of a "cage stage".
Sean and Jim,Sean,
I agree and would add that there is no mention of Norman Shepherd in the New Horizon articles at all. This omission screams volumes.
Jim
Sean and Jim,
And what of what the articles positively say? That means nothing at all? What of what the Justification Report and what it says? That means nothing?
What do you want the OPC to do about Norman Shepherd? Do you not realize that he's a member of the CRC?
I'm rather confused. The title of this thread is: "The OPC is getting the gospel right." Are you saying that the OPC is getting the gospel wrong? Perhaps you don't intend it, but your posts suggest as much.
My experience is this: If you spend a lot of time on the Internet you'll end up thinking every church is in a worse position than it really is. Spend less time on the Internet, go to Presbytery's and GA's and see for yourself.
Really, what do you want? What would you have the OPC do to satisfy you personally?
If you have complaints to register, there are ways to do so. Is an Internet forum like the PB the right place to do it? You are in churches that are in ecumenical relations with the OPC (NAPARC), and if you think the OPC is in so bad a condition as to warrant breaking that ecumenical relationship, then you have the church courts with which to appeal that decision.
Where have the churchmen gone? When you see a member of your church sin, do you immediately question their salvation? With such a broad stroke you paint the OPC . . . The hermeneutic of suspicion is contrary to charity, no?
I think the point that is being made, and needs to be made is that now that the OPC has made such bold (and good as far as they go) statements, it has yet to be seen whether or not they will follow through with discipline. There is at least one example (in the minds of many--I know we could debate this ad nauseum) of the OPC actually clearing someone whose teachings sounded an awful lot like Norman Shepherd and the FV on justification. Please do not take this as harsh or uncharitable but there are other instances in my opinion where the OPC claims to be one thing in its confessional documents and speaks loudly about certain positions in church publications, nevertheless in the actual practice of the church exactly the opposite takes place. It is good to say the right thing but this also needs to be followed by "practicing what is preached".
I appluad those in the OPC who have spoken strongly in favor of the biblical doctrine of justification and the many who sincerely believe it! But it is not unreasonable for those on the outside to reserve judgment until we see how this plays out. Declaring an absolute victory in the OPC is premature in my humble opinion. But I pray that the victory may be won there!
This is the statement that was made: "The Neo-Liberalism of the Federal Vision is alive and well in the OPC and the PCA and no article in a denominational magazine or committee report is going to change that." And yet, you seem to be referring to one individual.I think the point that is being made, and needs to be made is that now that the OPC has made such bold (and good as far as they go) statements, it has yet to be seen whether or not they will follow through with discipline. There is at least one example (in the minds of many--I know we could debate this ad nauseum) of the OPC actually clearing someone whose teachings sounded an awful lot like Norman Shepherd and the FV on justification. Please do not take this as harsh or uncharitable but there are other instances in my opinion where the OPC claims to be one thing in its confessional documents and speaks loudly about certain positions in church publications, nevertheless in the actual practice of the church exactly the opposite takes place. It is good to say the right thing but this also needs to be followed by "practicing what is preached".
I appluad those in the OPC who have spoken strongly in favor of the biblical doctrine of justification and the many who sincerely believe it! But it is not unreasonable for those on the outside to reserve judgment until we see how this plays out. Declaring an absolute victory in the OPC is premature in my humble opinion. But I pray that the victory may be won there!
This is the statement that was made: "The Neo-Liberalism of the Federal Vision is alive and well in the OPC and the PCA and no article in a denominational magazine or committee report is going to change that." And yet, you seem to be referring to one individual.
Now, either the "Federal Vision is alive and well in the OPC" or, as you suggest, there is "at least one example (in the minds of many)" that represents FV tendencies.
I see a rather sharp discrepancy between these two sentiments. One is a broad brush, the other expresses a concern over a particular individual case.
I, like you, are concerned about whatever individual cases I am aware of, but I am not prepared to say that "the Federal Vision is alive and well in the OPC." Are you?
If you have complaints to register, there are ways to do so.
The failure of the Assembly to adopt reasons for deciding that the session and presbytery were in error in finding Mr. Kinnaird's teaching to be contrary to the Church's Standards, leaves the decision open to the impression that the entire content of the Kinnaird "Declaration" is fully acceptable in the Church, which the undersigned deny. In the opinion of the undersigned the "Declaration" is an untrustworthy document.
I, like you, are concerned about whatever individual cases I am aware of, but I am not prepared to say that "the Federal Vision is alive and well in the OPC." Are you?
People must be educated. These things take time, much longer than it takes to post a blog article or debate an issue on the internet.
You are each referring to a single individual and using it as a test case.
Yeah, I deleted it. I figure there's no point in arguing about it. Sorry.SP, what happened to your post that I just responded to did you delete it? You're making me look like I'm just trying to up my post count
Rant time!!!
I would ask of Adam or anyone else, if you know of any officer in the Church, whether OPC or PCA or any confessional reformed church, who is teaching or preaching counter to the Standards, what have you done about it? Have you filed charges or at least alerted either their Session or Presbytery? The only way this is going to stop is when we say "enough"!! Saying. "Well its not my responsibility. I'm not OPC or PCA. All I can do is complain about them" is not good enough.
I would ask of Adam or anyone else, if you know of any officer in the Church, whether OPC or PCA or any confessional reformed church, who is teaching or preaching counter to the Standards, what have you done about it? Have you filed charges or at least alerted either their Session or Presbytery? The only way this is going to stop is when we say "enough"!! Saying. "Well its not my responsibility. I'm not OPC or PCA. All I can do is complain about them" is not good enough.
The responsible action is the bring formal charges against them after contacting them and probably talking to your Session about it.I can think of a number of PCA & OPC who are staunch defenders of the FV so what is one to do? Seriously what is the average lay person in the pew supposed to do about it? If you say you read what these people wrote on the internet I doubt you'll be taken seriously. So seriously asking what is the answer?
Rant time!!!
I would ask of Adam or anyone else, if you know of any officer in the Church, whether OPC or PCA or any confessional reformed church, who is teaching or preaching counter to the Standards, what have you done about it? Have you filed charges or at least alerted either their Session or Presbytery? The only way this is going to stop is when we say "enough"!! Saying. "Well its not my responsibility. I'm not OPC or PCA. All I can do is complain about them" is not good enough.
Rant time!!!
I would ask of Adam or anyone else, if you know of any officer in the Church, whether OPC or PCA or any confessional reformed church, who is teaching or preaching counter to the Standards, what have you done about it? Have you filed charges or at least alerted either their Session or Presbytery? The only way this is going to stop is when we say "enough"!! Saying. "Well its not my responsibility. I'm not OPC or PCA. All I can do is complain about them" is not good enough.
That's appalling conduct, but not surprising in the least. I will hand it to that session - they sure know how to keep their power.Wayne, Chris, and Casey,
That would seem to be the appropriate thing to do, wouldn't it? However, as can be abundantly seen throughout the history of Israel, it doesn't matter that God has set up the system of government, when the corrupt are in power, justice will not be served. Eventually God takes them out, but until that time, His church will always have to suffer under the effects of that false teaching/corrupt behaviour.
Case in point, the first OPC my family attended was/is pro-FV/NPP and had also hosted Norm Shepherd to speak at their church a year or so before we began attending. Shortly thereafter, my wife and I both began to see errors in their teaching on baptism/justification. I spoke with a solid elder of long standing who had just left their church over the effects that the false teachings were having on the congregation (by that point a number of people had left besides him). Even after hearing the problems from him, we decided to stick it out anyway, and I can now say with conviction, "foolishly so". I thought about bringing the session up on charges during those 18mos., but why did I not do so? Answer, they had sniffed me out and refused to let us join, and you can't press charges if you're not a member! We tried for the full 18mos. to gain membership, but they continued to deny us. Why was that so when, according to the OPC BCO, one need only be able to affirm the five membership vows to become a member? We were told by one of the elders, "It's because we don't think that you're Presbyterian enough yet", translated, "We know you're on to what we're teaching here, and your not FV enough yet, so we'll save ourselves the trouble of dealing with you by just refusing your family membership." They refused even to offer us a basic membership class for the duration of the 18 month period!
Clever them. The statute of limitations on a charge (if my memory serves me well) is a maximum of two years. Ignore this fellow until he goes off to seminary, where he won't have enough time to press charges even if he wants to, and by the time he's finished the two years will be up. Not only that, but you must have two or three witnesses to bring charges against an elder of the church, according to the BCO/scripture. All of these conversations only took place in back rooms, never in public; I see why now. My testimony alone would be disallowed, and I sure wasn't going to drag my tired, homeschooling wife into all of this as a second witness.
We haven't heard a good word from those men since we left. I spoke with the pastor on the phone once, but he was so in-my-face rude as to be considered acting as an unregenerate son of the world. Twice, their deacons tried to send us money in support of my schooling, and twice the pastor barred it. He told them that he would have a session member notify me of the denial, but lied to them also, as they later found out.
Why am I bringing all these other issues up? It's to show that dishonesty in doctrine, leads to dishonesty in polity procedures, and dishonesty in keeping your word to others. This is why the FV will not go away easily in the OPC; these men are steeped in a spirit of doctrinal and pastoral dishonesty, and they have buddies to keep them safe. I've seen that at work in the presbytery several times, where communications with FV accusations are made, and the red herring of "Oh, this is a violation of the 9th commandment" is thrown out there, all the pro-FV presbyters nod their heads and say, "hmm, yes, yes, that's right, we can't allow it to be read or admitted", and the procedure that is supposed to protect the people is once again circumvented.
So while I would agree with you all that there is a proper way on paper that should indeed be followed when it can, the reality is that when the system has flaws in the teaching and character of it leadership it is very, very difficult to turn around without some wholesale spine on the part of the entire church. This is a fact of Israel's history, and it is a fact that may be seen throughout the history of the post-apostolic church as well.
That's appalling conduct, but not surprising in the least. I will hand it to that session - they sure know how to keep their power.
Had no idea OPC had/has? some FV pastors/elders and that it's been that much of a problem in the denomination itself....
My impression was always that the PCA would be the first to succumb to liberalism and that the conservatives within it would migrate to the OPC as the next most conservative denomination. Of the two, I'd always perceived PCA to be the less strict and less Reformed of the two (especially on officer subscription standards - or are both system subscription oaths?)
Had no idea OPC had/has? some FV pastors/elders and that it's been that much of a problem in the denomination itself....