The Ordo revisited

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by AdamM
Let me get this straight, so you are saying it is possible for a person with a renewed nature to be under the wrath of God (unjustified?)

How can a person with a renewed nature do anything but turn to Christ in faith and repentance? Unless we want to say that the renewed nature can still hate Christ and despise His work, it is impossible. So can the renewed nature hate Christ?

I will say it is impossible for one to be regenerated and yet not justified. The renewed nature cannot hate Christ. and neither does God hate thosse whom He regenerates.

 

[The Lamb]

Using the analogy of Christ raising lazarus, as soon as Christ called him from the grave, his nature (physical in this case) was raised from the dead (regeneration) and then he lived (faith). If this analogy holds, there can be no time gap between regeneration and faith. If not, I am interested to hear where I am missing it.

Well if faith cometh by hearing, then I believe the parable of the soils gives evidence of a possibel time lag. The soil was regenerated prior to the Word. We do not know how long, but it was. The Word itself does not have the power to convert a soul from life to death. Without preparing the heart of us by the Holy Spirit, we can sit under 1000 sermons, and it will have no lasting effect if any.

This is the difference between an effectual call and general call. All whom are effectually called are regenerated and justified.


The new birth, contrary to what is commonly taught, is something done not merely "œfor" but "œin" man, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Some believe that the subject is active in the new birth, and the Spirit employs the Word as God´s means of accomplishing regeneration. But the subject, according to Scripture, is spiritually dead, blind, deaf, and dumb. Thus, the sinner is passive, spiritually speaking; but he is actively engaged in sinful acts. If he cannot cease from sin (II Pet. 2:14), then he is filled with all unrighteousness. He not only commits things worthy of death, but has pleasure in those who perform such evil deeds (Rom. 1:29-32). The Holy Spirit, therefore, must quicken the passive spirit of the sinner making him sensitive to the call of the gospel. Sensitivity to the gospel is the fruit of regeneration. Scriptures classify this as conversion.


Quickening is an immediate and creative act: "œAnd you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1). No instrumental means are used with God´s creative act. The word does not produce life, but it is effective in those who possess life. Life is responsive to living things. Nicodemus was told that he had to be born again before he could see. Once the faculty of sight is given, the recipient is guided by the word to repentance and faith.



[Edited on 5-16-2005 by The Lamb]

 

[AdamM]

Adam,

I think what I am saying here is that it is possible for a person to go through a short period of time in which he comes to an understanding to express faith. I would not say that he hates the work of Christ, but rather that he has not expressed faith yet.

Fred, I do see what you are saying, but I would rather put it in terms of a person who possesses saving faith, but that that faith may not come to full expression until later. I think we are in agreement that the implications are very troublesome if we allow the ordo to become more then a logical order and it would be a position outside the mainstream of Reformed thought on the subject. I do grant that Edwards thought ran along those lines, but I think it is an example where his speculative approach was unhelpful. John Murray is much, much more helpful.

For what it's worth, imagine person "A" who is regenerate, but not yet justified gets hit by a truck and squashed. Does he go to heaven? Could we theoretically have a regenerate person burning in hell, because they did not turn to Christ in faith and repentance?

I also see troubling aspects involving our doctrine of union with Christ. Does regeneration involve union with Christ? If it does, can a person at any time be united to a partial Christ? Could I be united with Christ and not at the same time be justified, sanctified & etc? I'm sure you get my drift.

 

[The Lamb]

For what it's worth, imagine person "A" who is regenerate, but not yet justified gets hit by a truck and squashed. Does he go to heaven? Could we theoretically have a regenerate person burning in hell, because they did not turn to Christ in faith and repentance?

Impossible that one of Gods chosen will end up in Hell.

I also see troubling aspects involving our doctrine of union with Christ. Does regeneration involve union with Christ? If it does, can a person at any time be united to a partial Christ? Could I be united with Christ and not at the same time be justified, sanctified & etc? I'm sure you get my drift.

The effect of the Spirit´s work in regeneration is union with God. Union with Christ is a great and impenetrable mystery; it should be defined in order to keep us from falling into serious error.

This union was planned in God´s eternal decree with His Son and the Spirit . thus, a relation was established between the Father and those given to Christ in the covenant of redemption. All subsequent relations spring from this eternal covenant (Heb. 13:20, 21).



As Adam carried all the children of men in the loins of his flesh, so Scriptures teach that when Jesus Christ died and rose, we died and rose with and in Him.


The union is actually effected when the elect are regenerated. Union actually takes place when, in the time of love, the Spirit implants the principle of life in the souls of those for whom Christ died. Until regeneration, the mystic union was hidden in the eternal purpose of God.

The consciousness of the union of the regenerated comes through the exercise of faith. Consciousness of this union must be distinguished from regeneration. The faculty of faith, which was implanted in regeneration, may not immediately manifest itself in conscious faith and conversion. For example, a child possesses its mother from the first moment of his existence; but a conscious enjoyment of this possession is awakened and increased after birth. Therefore, the conscious enjoyment of our union with Christ is awakened and increased after the new birth. Even though we are some time coming to a conscious understanding of our union with Christ, the subjective union itself existed from the time of regeneration.



Regeneration signifies a new birth. God first makes man new by giving him a new heart (Ezek. 36:26). The new commandment itself is not new, but it is new to the regenerated man because he possesses a new understanding (I John 2:7). New life, which is the fruit of regeneration, must be cultivated and grow before it becomes a mighty tree of righteousness (Ps. 1:1-3). Years may pass before the stature of manhood is reached. Even though the Christian possesses a new heart, life, standing, commandment, and state, there are many glorious new things awaiting him in the future. They are a new body, name, robe, song, and home.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by AdamM

Fred, I do see what you are saying, but I would rather put it in terms of a person who possesses saving faith, but that that faith may not come to full expression until later. I think we are in agreement that the implications are very troublesome if we allow the ordo to become more then a logical order and it would be a position outside the mainstream of Reformed thought on the subject. I do grant that Edwards thought ran along those lines, but I think it is an example where his speculative approach was unhelpful. John Murray is much, much more helpful.

This is how I think of it. Just because Faith is not expressed or even understood immediately doesn't mean it's not there. Faith is the immediate result of regeneration, just as life is the immediate result of birth, even though the baby may not cry immediately.

For what it's worth, imagine person "A" who is regenerate, but not yet justified gets hit by a truck and squashed. Does he go to heaven? Could we theoretically have a regenerate person burning in hell, because they did not turn to Christ in faith and repentance?

This objection is pointless since we all believe in the soveriegnty of God here.

I also see troubling aspects involving our doctrine of union with Christ. Does regeneration involve union with Christ? If it does, can a person at any time be united to a partial Christ? Could I be united with Christ and not at the same time be justified, sanctified & etc? I'm sure you get my drift.

Me too. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the concept of union with Christ. There's different senses to it and it can get confusing.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Fred, I do see what you are saying, but I would rather put it in terms of a person who possesses saving faith, but that that faith may not come to full expression until later. I think we are in agreement that the implications are very troublesome if we allow the ordo to become more then a logical order and it would be a position outside the mainstream of Reformed thought on the subject. I do grant that Edwards thought ran along those lines, but I think it is an example where his speculative approach was unhelpful. John Murray is much, much more helpful.

This is how I think of it. Just because Faith is not expressed or even understood immediately doesn't mean it's not there. Faith is the immediate result of regeneration, just as life is the immediate result of birth, even though the baby may not cry immediately.

Patrick,
What is your take on what Jesus meant to Nicodemus when he said that a man must be regenerated before he can see the kingdom of God? Also, an infant has the capacity to speak, even at birth. But can he speak?

For what it's worth, imagine person "A" who is regenerate, but not yet justified gets hit by a truck and squashed. Does he go to heaven? Could we theoretically have a regenerate person burning in hell, because they did not turn to Christ in faith and repentance?

This objection is pointless since we all believe in the soveriegnty of God here.

I also see troubling aspects involving our doctrine of union with Christ. Does regeneration involve union with Christ? If it does, can a person at any time be united to a partial Christ? Could I be united with Christ and not at the same time be justified, sanctified & etc? I'm sure you get my drift.

Me too. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the concept of union with Christ. There's different senses to it and it can get confusing.

There is such a thing as virtual union and actual, i.e. the elect have a vitrtual union, but not actually until the time that they are regenerated etc.


[Edited on 5-16-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Originally posted by fredtgreco
I agree with your comments about the guys, Matt.

Where I am confused, and it is probably my fault, is that I thought you and Scott were saying two things:

1.

Regeneration -- possible time --> Faith -- at the same time --> justification

AND

2.

Regeneration -- possible time --> Faith -- possible passage of time --> justification

I can agree with 1, but not with 2.

Definitely agreed my brother! We must have been talking past one another.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

It's hard for me to think of a person having a new nature (even if it is just 10 minutes!) and still not being found in Christ!

I would too!

A person with a new nature IS in Christ. He simply, now, needs to acknoweldge it by faith.

Having faith IN Christ, after regeneration is simply demonstrating the former. Being justified by Christ is again consequent to being IN Christ IN regeneration.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Patrick,
What is your take on what Jesus meant to Nicodemus when he said that a man must be regenerated before he can see the kingdom of God? Also, an infant has the capacity to speak, even at birth. But can he speak?

Regeneration is necessary for faith. We need a new heart. That does not mean it takes any amount of time after regeneration for one to believe. Regeneration is that point where we are renewed in our mind and will such that we embrace Christ by faith immediately (i.e effectual calling). It may take time for that to be expressed or even recognized by the believer in himself. But it's still there. It's impossible for one brought back to life to not live. It's a contradiction.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Patrick,
What is your take on what Jesus meant to Nicodemus when he said that a man must be regenerated before he can see the kingdom of God? Also, an infant has the capacity to speak, even at birth. But can he speak?

Regeneration is necessary for faith. We need a new heart. That does not mean it takes any amount of time after regeneration for one to believe.

I'm not saying it does. I AM saying that in some instances, it occurs. See Matt's analogy above. See the quote from VanMastricht I provided.

Regeneration is that point where we are renewed in our mind and will such that we embrace Christ by faith immediately (i.e effectual calling).

Not in every case........

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You didn't answer my question about what Jesus meant when he questioned Nicodemus?

It may take time for that to be expressed or even recognized by the believer in himself.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How could John have had faith in the womb?



[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Regeneration is that point where we are renewed in our mind and will such that we embrace Christ by faith immediately (i.e effectual calling).

Not in every case........

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I don't see how this verse support your position at all. Of course faith comes by hearing, but usualy regnereation accompanies that as well through effectual calling accompaning that general call in the preaching.

You didn't answer my question about what Jesus meant when he questioned Nicodemus?

I thought I did. Jesus was teaching him that he needed to be regenerate to understand and believe savingly.

How could John have had faith in the womb?

How could he leap for joy if he did not rejoice in Christ by faith? What did he rejoice in? I don't know how it happened but it did. Probably through some extraordinary means, just as it would have to be for any infant to die in infancy. John's actions can only be explained by his faith. Only faith rejoices in Christ. You cannot be regenerate and not embrace the one who has brought you from death to life. Again, as already pointed out, Lazuras responded when the power of Christ accompanied the word. There was no time gap. Jesus called and Lazuras arose and obeyed. It was immediate from the effectual call.

 

[Arch2k]

to Patrick

Good points

 

[Scott Bushey]

Patrick,
You ask:

How could he leap for joy if he did not rejoice in Christ by faith?

Solely an assertion! In fact, you have to fight the scriptures. The scriptures say that faith comes by hearing the word of God. In the case of the elect infant whom God has decreed will die in infancy, it is not a conundrum; God goes to that individual; He must! In the case of John, it was decreed that John would live a full life. Gods normal means of grace is by the preached word, through Gods preachers (see Romans 10).

You add:

I thought I did. Jesus was teaching him that he needed to be regenerate to understand and believe savingly.

Specifically, Jesus is saying that unless you are regenerated, you cannot SEE the kingdom of God.

Regeneration brings sight, sight then brings understanding. You have just proven my point. There is a time gap between regeneration and processing of information. God does not provide the information along with the sight. The information is conveyed by Gods people.

Isaiah speaks of the blindness:

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Gods word says that understanding brings conversion. Understanding requires time.


God regenearates. People process information with their eyes and ears; conversion occurs. The ultimate healing takes place.

You have your right to your opinion. It is not I alone whom hold to this view. In fact, it is the reformed view. The ordo has segments. Segments denote time (even a nanosecond can be measured). Don't take my word for it; ask Fred and Matt; I know you trust them, they have degree's. Far be it for some lay-person to instruct you academics. Both Fred and Matt have admitted that there are possible gaps between regeneration and faith.



[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Patrick,
You ask:

How could he leap for joy if he did not rejoice in Christ by faith?

Solely an assertion! In fact, you have to fight the scriptures. The scriptures say that faith comes by hearing the word of God. In the case of the elect infant whom God has decreed will die in infancy, it is not a conundrum; God goes to that individual; He must! In the case of John, it was decreed that John would live a full life. Gods normal means of grace is by the preached word, through Gods preachers (see Romans 10).

No more an assertion than your view of the passage. We are both interpreting that passage with presuppositons already about John's state. My assertion is based on the grounds that there was no other reason for John to leap for joy. I didn't say he never heard the word but that he heard it extraordidarily. He did have a miraculous birth after all. Why not a miraculous or extrordinary new birth? Without knowing that Christ had saved him in some sense there is no reason for John to leap for joy. This is why you can't build doctrines on these special narrative cases. You and Matt seem to be binding knowledge to the cognitive development of the brain. But the saints in heaven have no physical brains at the moment. Yet they know Christ more fully than we. Knowing Christ is bigger than just the capacities of our physical bodies.

You add:

I thought I did. Jesus was teaching him that he needed to be regenerate to understand and believe savingly.

Specifically, Jesus is saying that unless you are regenerated, you cannot SEE the kingdom of God.

Regeneration brings sight, sight then brings understanding. You have just proven my point. There is a time gap between regeneration and processing of information. God does not provide the information along with the sight. The information is conveyed by Gods people.

Regeneration brings life. What is the response of that new life? Faith is that "seeing" and "hearing" spoken of which embraces the truth. That's what effectual calling is all about. You cannot see unless you have been brought back to life.

Isaiah speaks of the blindness:

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Gods word says that understanding brings conversion. Understanding requires time.

Understanding does require time normally. Which is why I dropped the view of presumptive regeneration. But you also must remember that the Holy Spirit is preparing our minds and hearts for that change. This is that prepatory work of the Spirit. We don't need regeneration to understand truth. Even the demons believe and tremble. We need regeneration to renew our mind and will to embrace the truth by faith. Regeneration enables us to move from a general intellectual knowledge to a trust in that knowledge (i.e faith).

God regenerates. People process information with their eyes and ears; conversion occurs. The ultimate healing takes place.

As I said before, people don't need regeneration to process information. They need regeneration to be enabled to embrace that information savingly by faith. It is regeneration which enables one to move from "Christ died for sinners" (general knowledge) to "Christ died for me" (faith). Hopefully I'm making myself clearer.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Understanding does require time normally. Which is why I dropped the view of presumptive regeneration.

Regeneration is not conversion; conversion requires understanding. That facet of the ordo requires time. Based upon that, I have no idea why you would abandon PR, if that was the reason.


[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]