The Papacy is still Antichrist

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ProtestantReformer

Puritan Board Freshman
Westminster 25.6
There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.

Are there any who object to this historic position & believe the reformers were merely seeing through a lens contextual to their time?

I posit that the Papacy, though a shadow of what it once was, is still that Antichrist & perceive that at some point, she will either receive more power, have her power restored or have the nations wonder after her mysteries. I believe she fulfills the prophecies of 2 Thessalonians 2, in which Calvin commentates;

"The two epithets — man of sin, and son of perdition — intimate, in the first place, how dreadful the confusion would be, that the unseemliness of it might not discourage weak minds; and farther, they tend to stir up the pious to a feeling of detestation, lest they should degenerate along with others. Paul, however, now draws, as if in a picture, a striking likeness of Antichrist; for it may be easily gathered from these words what is the nature of his kingdom, and in what things it consists. **For, when he calls him an adversary, when he says that he will claim for himself those things which belong to God, so that he is worshipped in the temple as God, he places his kingdom in direct opposition to the kingdom of Christ. Hence, as the kingdom of Christ is spiritual, so this tyranny must be upon souls, that it may rival the kingdom of Christ. We shall also find him afterwards assigning to him the power of deceiving, by means of wicked doctrines and pretended miracles. If, accordingly, you would know Antichrist, you must view him as diametrically opposed to Christ."

And that the Papacy may be properly called Antichrist even moreso today, than in the times of the Reformers, as her doctrine as only continues to diverge from the Apostolic faith & dissolve more and more into that which makes the whole up of the mystery of iniquity.

Augustine’s observation on this point is well taken, “Let us not be attentive to the tongue, but to the facts. Similarly, Antichrist is a liar, who by his mouth professes Jesus Christ, yet by his deeds denies him.” Thus, when the Pope usurps the triple office of Christ, he destroys Christ’s gospel by his own traditions, also destroying Christ’s redemption by his own indulgences, purgatory, masses, and rewards; all this while verbally professing Jesus to be the Christ. Notwithstanding his profession, he must be regarded as having denied Christ, together with the Father, by his very deeds and works.”
-- Francis Turretin
 
It makes perfect sense that in their time the Reformers thought the Pope was not only antichrist but the antichrist and the man of sin. From their vantage point, somewhat geographically removed from the immediacy of the Ottoman threat, there was not even a close second to the spiritual and temporal power wielded by the pope. One reason I admire the Reformers so much is the courage it must have taken to stand against the absolutely fearsome pressure the popes could bring to bear against their enemies: the armies of earth and behind those armies, great and very real spiritual forces. It would be almost inconceivable, and would take a remarkable amount of historical and geographical perspective (one which would be nearly impossible to have without the modern technology we have at our disposal) to NOT see the pope in this way.

Against this backdrop I posit two counterpoints: first, the coalition of forces at the pope's disposal was by this time increasingly unwieldy and already beginning to fracture. Papal power was already diminished from a few centuries earlier and I think the sack of Rome in 1527 is a historically symbolic event in this regard, foreshadowing the subjugation of even pretended religion to political ends. The steady diminishment of papal power has continued since then both in temporal and spiritual terms. The increasingly exalted claims of the papacy in the modern era are not the warnings of a prospective Napoleon but the delusional ravings of a madman. I am reminded of the Ottoman sultans in the very late days of the empire who still clung to maps showing far-flung African outposts as Ottoman territory, when Ottoman forces had not set foot there in centuries.

The pope now is on his way to becoming a mere figurehead. It's not quite as bad, but in some ways the trajectory of the papacy is like that of the British monarchy - it has subjective meaning depending on the felt need of the individual but far less actual power than it once had. This doesn't seem to me to match the Biblical trajectory of the man of sin, and if anything, I see the pope being subsumed into a larger coalition of secularist forces taking power around the globe. He may be a willing participant but he is most certainly not the leader in the same way as the popes of centuries gone by. If anything, he's a placeholder, keeping hundreds of millions of Catholics in varying degrees of confusion or overt rebellion and fostering the grip of the secular humanist worldview over their minds. The pope is one of many doing the bidding of a much darker and more sinister force.

Second, it is tempting for people of every age to over-realize their eschatology in a self-centered way. I think a lot of the postmillennial optimism so common in America was driven by our incredible success as a country. Even dispensationalism's weird eschatology seems in some way to be enabled by the central role we have been able to play in world affairs - who wouldn't be tempted to think eschatologically when living in the single most powerful entity, bar none, that world history has ever seen? Now I can hardly think of any period where people would have better justification for thinking in such eschatological terms than in the white-knuckled life-and-death struggle the Reformers faced against a power claiming to be the embodiment of Christ on earth. And maybe there's some connection between the events of that time and the rise of secular humanism which has now come to be so pervasive on the face of the earth... that's a bit above my head. The trajectory of events since then, however, does not seem to have borne out their view on this particular issue.

So, all in all, I tend to side with those revisions to the WCF that remove the references to the pope as THE anti-Christ.
 
I see the pope being subsumed into a larger coalition of secularist forces taking power around the globe. He may be a willing participant but he is most certainly not the leader in the same way as the popes of centuries gone by. If anything, he's a placeholder, keeping hundreds of millions of Catholics in varying degrees of confusion or overt rebellion and fostering the grip of the secular humanist worldview over their minds. The pope is one of many doing the bidding of a much darker and more sinister force. [bold emphases added ~Steve]
This is precisely how I see it as well; put more succinctly and clearly than I have.
 
The pope now is on his way to becoming a mere figurehead. It's not quite as bad, but in some ways the trajectory of the papacy is like that of the British monarchy - it has subjective meaning depending on the felt need of the individual but far less actual power than it once had. This doesn't seem to me to match the Biblical trajectory of the man of sin, and if anything, I see the pope being subsumed into a larger coalition of secularist forces taking power around the globe. He may be a willing participant but he is most certainly not the leader in the same way as the popes of centuries gone by. If anything, he's a placeholder, keeping hundreds of millions of Catholics in varying degrees of confusion or overt rebellion and fostering the grip of the secular humanist worldview over their minds. The pope is one of many doing the bidding of a much darker and more sinister force.
This does not contradict the Antichristian nature of the papacy, it simply means we do not live anywhere near the height of Antichrist's reign. What you are describing sounds very much like the sixth vial's events:
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
 
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Hello Efraim, is it a mere slip, or lack of familiarity with Revelation? For the sixth seal is the appearance of the Lamb and His wrath against the kings, the rich, the great, and the lower as well, and their terror. It is the sixth bowl, or vial, being poured out, and the foray of the demons against the world through the dragon, beast, and false prophet you quoted.
 
The Lord Jesus said to the Pharisees and Sadducees, "O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern (ESV interpret) the signs of the times?" (Matt 16:3 KJV). Not to be confused with "observers of times" (Deut 18:10 KJV; Deut 18:14 KJV; Lev 19:26 KJV), which were fortune tellers, augurs using the occult to predict the future.

Rather, it was as said "of the children of Issachar, which were men that had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do" (1 Chron 12:32 KJV).

Can we not interpret our own times, and the massive dystopian measures being implemented by numerous governments, and the general darkening of the collective consciousness of unregenerate humankind, as written of in Rev 9:1,2, and the resultant pandemic of mental illness, suicides, and madness among those not sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads (Rev 9:4,5)?
 
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Underestimate him/it - and the Jesuits - at your peril. Consider how a "reforming" pope following the current one could/would reinvigorate the faithful...
The thing about trends is that they are just that - trends. And in the limited imagination of humans, most of our predictions are just that - extrapolations based on trends. There has been a trend in papal power for roughly 8 centuries now, but it certainly could change.

That said, I don't think I am generally prone to underestimating the dangers of the Roman Catholic system. I am just giving what I consider to be a realistic estimate of the state of affairs. As for a reforming pope, it would cause open insurrection in the Roman church. Liberalism is far enough advanced that a traditionalist pope would be opposed at every step of the way. But under a liberal pope, conservatives stay in because they are beholden to the stated doctrines of the church. It's a much better way to keep people in at this point.

With Vatican II, the Roman church is not the same as it was at Trent. It is now becoming more visibly secularized and liberal. It's a far cry - and a different beast (pun intended) - from what it was 500 years ago. It has been taken over by the spirit of the age as perfectly encapsulated by its current head.

This doesn't change the anti-christian nature of this false system, nor does it obviate the need for Catholics at an individual or corporate level to explicitly reject the teachings of Trent and return to a true gospel; but it does make it look less like the antichrist and more like one of the frogs coming out of the mouth of the real beast.
 
Underestimate him/it - and the Jesuits - at your peril. Consider how a "reforming" pope following the current one could/would reinvigorate the faithful...

After my own limited study of the Reformation-era Jesuits, I'm surprised at two things: how wicked they were, and how brilliant they were. Amazingly wise with their own kind. I know little of modern Jesuits, but those of the Reformation era remind me that Protestant ministry really needs to be a spare-no-effort endeavor in regards to seriousness, diligence, and godliness. We as children of the light should be no less wise with our greater treasures.

With 1 billion Catholics strong, resurgence to power of the RCC is most certainly not out of the question. Perhaps the Vatican is liberal now, but it's always been the RCC modus operandi to syncretize with the times and cultures they touch. It's part of their craftiness. They've got over a millennia of experience in doing this. They might look more like a lizard than a snake for now, but one can still get into the king's palace.
 
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It's true the trend in the west is toward secularism, even in Catholic-dominated countries like Spain. Nevertheless, the religious leverage is always going to be extraordinarily powerful. Even in secular nations the religious pulse can cause people to act like madmen. The RCC does have a leverage point waiting when they're ready to use it.

See this video.

Warning: There are 2CV violations, and I have sought admin approval to link the video.
 
Underestimate him/it - and the Jesuits - at your peril. Consider how a "reforming" pope following the current one could/would reinvigorate the faithful...

Indeed, especially after lulling the world with his resemblance of a lamb -- so inoffensive and gentle.
 
@Ploutos @No Other Name

The video is of the Virgin of Rocio, or the Mary adorned as a queen, one of the most important virgins in Spain. The way a friend explained it to me, after they end a certain ritual they grab the bars and they carry the idol. It's considered a great honor to do it, which is why people are rushing to get ahold of her. Outside they will present children to her for blessing. Touching the idol is also a way to incur blessing. That's why there's such a violent scurry.

Other thoughts occurred to me since I posted. Secularism needs to collapse under its own weight at some point. It's prominent today, but historically not the norm. People are unshakably religious, and they just have different degrees of success in suppressing what they know. Marxism--essentially atheistic--can have its heyday but it will only succeed so much. People will eventually wake up and realize that no amount of philosophy is going to do away with the idea that something--someone--is out there, and he is making demands. Related to this, we were reading last night that original Buddhism is essentially atheistic, yet as Buddhism spread Buddha eventually became a deity. I imagine that secularist philosophies will eventually have to be "religionized" in some degree to keep going.

If you get people awake enough to realize there is a god, they are sinners, they must worship, and they're in trouble, they'll start to worship, but they'll try desperately hard to do it in a way they can bear. And they'll also feel a great need for the form of worship they created. If you can find one that allows you to pacify your conscience and keep this holy God at a distance, that's a keeper for people. Maybe that's why people are going so mad in this video. That, and they really believe they get a blessing by this. Or it may be the spirit of mad parties that surround the event.

The pope just needs to get a lot more people thinking like this, and he'll be healed from his wound.
 
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@Solparvus - thank you; thought provoking words for me to ponder. Yes, world events could change, and as the pope is now viewed in a very different light from 500 years ago, that could change again.

Personally, I pray that the internal tension within Rome's official beliefs, compounded by the tensions of the conflict between the actual beliefs of the different factions, will cause Rome to splinter into a dozen (or a thousand!) different pieces. It doesn't mean I see that as the most likely outcome extrapolating from current trends, but it is certainly possible and it would be a great joy to me to see it happen. It would mean great freedom for those few believers in the Roman church, and maybe a great opening for evangelism to the unsaved mass of Rome's followers.
 
The Pope isn't the Antichrist anymore.
I was reassured by my local Jesuit, who I met at an ecumenical fellowship meeting (curiously started and hosted by the Jesuits).

And the Jesuit was quick to point out that my Reformed fathers heavily relied on Roman Catholic theologians (they were Thomists after all, according to a paper written by a Jesuit).

And he was even kind enough to offer for my Protestant church to fold into the Roman Catholic church! We can even keep our liturgy. We just have to recognize the authority of the Pope! Isn't that just swell!

I guess they really have come a long way since the inquisition! And to think I thought they posed a spiritual danger! How naive of me.
 
The thing that eludes many is that there's a time factor here; we do not understand — rightly interpret / discern — the times we are in now. We do not see what is happening in our world. That is, until seismic catastrophes so afflict our awareness that we realize these are none other than divine judgments heralding the near-approaching end of the age, and that there is no recovering from them.

What then? The elect — having the seal of God on their foreheads (Rev 9:4) — will rightly see the storm coming and hide themselves in Him (Prov 18:10). We will weather the storm.
 
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