"The Passion of the Christ"

Status
Not open for further replies.
[quote:83207fa06b][i:83207fa06b]Originally posted by Craig[/i:83207fa06b]
Does anyone who thinks this movie breaks the 2nd commandment think that God broke this commandment also?

Remember...God revealed Himself in a burning bush...as a pillar of fire...a pillar of cloud...and, oh yeah, in the FLESH.

How many of your churches have some sort of geometrical abstraction representing the Trinity? That, my friends, is also an image.

Are images of God wrong? Yes...is an actor portraying Jesus Christ wrong? Possibly...in the case of this movie? I don't know...I'll find out. I just find it difficult to swallow the interpretation some of you are giving for the second commandment. Do you guys just think in abstractions? I can to an extent...but you know what, God gave us eyes and MINDS to INTERPRET them. If you decide to take the image, bypass your mind, and worship it, or allow the image IN ITSELF to guide your thoughts, you are then committing idolatry. Perhaps I am missing part of the definition, but this seems to be the HOW of it.

The only people who will use the movie for idolatrous purposes will be Romanists...and apparently Paul.... :saint: [/quote:83207fa06b]

Craig,

I don't recall... does the 2nd commandment say "there shall never be an image" or "you [man] shall not make an image" ?? :puzzled:

Kind of an important distinction, isn't it?

One important question (actually two):

1. Can you think about God and not be moved to worship?

2. If you can, isn't that worse than breaking the second commandment?
 
Quote from Fred:


[quote:0ec2ae1d04]
One important question (actually two):

1. Can you think about God and not be moved to worship?

2. If you can, isn't that worse than breaking the second commandment?
[/quote:0ec2ae1d04]

That is exactly why I posted the quote and link from John Murray's article. Perfect summary Fred. Bravo!
 
I'm just trying to figuire out why everyone is clammoring about a movie whom the director truly has no clue about the subject matter. The [i:0b5130310a]Jesus[/i:0b5130310a] of this movie is NOT the [b:0b5130310a]Jesus[/b:0b5130310a] of the scriptures.....:no:

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
I think the point of the protestant 2nd commandment is that one not worship the sign at the expense of the object signified.

If we return it to the place of the qualifier of the first commandment this makes more sense.

And Scott, that is an extremely bold statement to say Mel does not know the Christ of the scriptures. That is between Him and God. I would also add that all of us hold to some flaw I am sure within our fallen reason of the person of Christ.

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by Visigoth]
 
"Thank you thank you. I am the papist of the year. First off I would like to thank all the little people who helped get me here..... but don't you hold to the american WCF...not the original...so you reject the teachings of the divines when they say that the church should punish all blasphemers...

So, come on up and except this award with me you papist."

There is some truth to this. The Vatican II document Dignitatis Humane is in many ways similar to the American WCF on the role of the government. Vatican II's position on government is antithetical to the Brittish version of the WCF, the one enacted by the divines themselves.

Scott

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by Scott]
 
One thing to consider is that the elements of the sacrament of communion are depictions of Christ's body and blood. This is true whether one views the rite as a bare memorial or as a true sacrament.

These are visible and tangible depicitions of the body of Christ. They are to be felt, tasted, touched, and smelled.

Scott
 
[quote:42abbf1997]
depictions of Christ's body
[/quote:42abbf1997]

What does depictions mean?? Actual Representations of his personhood? or are they Symbols? How does a symbol work in this capacity - by sight or by faith? By looking ont he sacrament do we recieve faith or by faith?
Were the sacraments instituted by Christ? If they were, are they allowed by Him? Did Christ institute idols or images?
 
Web: All images are symbols - even the images you see on movies (what we see on the screen are not real people - we see symbols of people).

Of course the sacrament is permissible and Christ did not institute idols. I don't understand where you are going with your questions.

In any event, the existence of a divinely ordained sacrament that ritually depicts Christ's body and blood should inform our understanding of what is and is not permissible under the second commandment.

Scott

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by Scott]
 
Interesting Discussion

This has been a VERY interesting discussion about the pro's and con's of seeing this movie; I have found myself swayed back and forth many times by the powerful arguments given on both sides.

I'd say that as it stands Fred's arguments and citations have won me over to NOT go see the movie (thanks, I'll save $8!). I'm sure that if I DID see the movie, it would move me to great emotions over the painful death of my precious Savior, and I would probably have that image of Jesus in my mind for a LONG time to come everytime someone mentioned His name.

However, one caution I would like to present to this board is: it seems that we in the Reformation are always concerned about unity in truth: we can't find it with the Romanists (obviously), or the charasmatics or the arminians, etc. All we have is each other for true fellowship. It seems as if we were all to get together for a reunion somewhere one day, we wouldn't say, "Hey, there's So and So!" and jump for joy.

Instead we'd be thinking, "Hey, there's that guy who's always arguing with me and who called me this or that, or accused me of this or that!"

We said we'd be "moved to feeling" by seeing this movie. What about being "moved to feeling" by each other, as people that Jesus has died for, and who are to be our brothers for all eternity. I think we need to recapture a bit of charity and make sure our hearts are in check and that we don't get a spirit of bitterness stirred up in a Board that should be "stirring us up to love and good works."

If this Board is causing sin and not love, I'm wondering just how well its serving its purpose. Sure we need to be passionate about issues, and we urge our brothers to be likeminded so that God may be glorified in all, but if we are the "select few" who are of "A Puritan's Mind" and yet we can hardly get along with each other, than perhaps we need to reconsider some things. Just a little fatherly wisdom!
 
On another note, a depiction of Christ's human body is not a depiction of His person. Christ was a person before He had a body. The persons of the Trinity, including Jesus, exist from eternity past. A human body is not of the essence of personhood. It is the body that is depicted not personhood.


As the confession mentions, the divine and human are joined without "confusion" meaning that they are unmixed. To say that one cannot be evaluated without the other is to do just this, confuse them. (I mean confuse in the sense of mix, not "confused" as meaning not understanding).

Scott

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by Scott]
 
[quote:8ebef38fe0][i:8ebef38fe0]Originally posted by Scott[/i:8ebef38fe0]
Web: All images are symbols.

Of course the sacarment is permissible and Christ did not institute idols. I don't understand where you are going with your questions.

In any event, the existence of a divinely ordained sacrament that ritually depicts Christ's body and blood should inform our understanding of what is and is not permissible under the second commandment.

Scott [/quote:8ebef38fe0]

It should, but not in the way you think it does, I fear - not in the historic orthodox understanding. God has given to us a sensible representation of the work of Christ. Those signs are instituted by Christ, governed by the Church, and under the authority of the Word. How can you possible desire to substitute a man made, unauthoritative, uninstituted (find me one example of "make an image"!) representation?
 
[quote:88d619ad97][i:88d619ad97]Originally posted by Visigoth[/i:88d619ad97]
I think the point of the protestant 2nd commandment is that one not worship the sign at the expense of the object signified.

If we return it to the place of the qualifier of the first commandment this makes more sense.

And Scott, that is an extremely bold statement to say Mel does not know the Christ of the scriptures. That is between Him and God. I would also add that all of us hold to some flaw I am sure within our fallen reason of the person of Christ.

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by Visigoth] [/quote:88d619ad97]

Mark,

Actually the context of the 9th and 3rd commandments are excellent qualifiers in this case. The image is untrue, and lies about who Christ is. By doing so, it takes His name in vain. Would that we had 1/100th of the concern for God's glory that kept the Jews from pronouncing Yahweh for fear of breaking the 3rd commandment.

As for Gibson, it is true that subjectively we cannot judge his heart. But we can judge his profession of faith - we do this all the time. And his profession belies saving faith. The Jesus of the Scriptures never commanded the blasphemy of the Mass, and yet Gibson not only communes in a body that does, he makes sure it is "celebrated" daily; the Jesus of the Scriptures does not say perseverance depends on my work, but Rome does. Jesus does not say that baptism saves ex opere operato, but Rome does.

But we have been down this road before. You believe Rome's belief in the Trinity is enough, and emphasize our own fallibility. The problem is, this is not the position of the Reformation. The main thing in Scripture is plain - see Galatians 1-2. And ROme is dea wrong on that - DAMNABLY wrong. She leads souls to hell with her siren song. We have disagreed on this in the past and I'd rather talk about something we agree on - love for Latin !! - than continue it now (and I suspect you agree).
 
[i:d70f195edb]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:d70f195edb]
I'm just trying to figuire out why everyone is clammoring about a movie whom the director truly has no clue about the subject matter. The [i:d70f195edb]Jesus[/i:d70f195edb] of this movie is NOT the [b:d70f195edb]Jesus[/b:d70f195edb] of the scriptures.....:no:



I think you've nailed it. This movie is one man's interpretation of the passion of Christ. If any "dramatic license" is taken, anything left out, anything less than his total divinity portrayed, we will be led to worship by a creation of Mel Gibson's imagination
 
Paul Harvey's Movie Review of the Passion

Subject: Paul Harvey's comments on "The Passion"
>by Mel Gibson
>
>
> The majority of the media are complaining about
>this movie. Now Paul
> Harvey tells "The rest of the story" and David
>Limbaugh praises Gibson.
>
> Most people would wait and see a movie before
>giving the reviews that
> have been issued by the reporters trying to tell
>all of us what to
> believe.
>
> Paul Harvey's words:
>
> I really did not know what to expect. I was
>thrilled to have been
> invited to a private viewing of Mel Gibson's film
>"The Passion," but I
> had also read all the cautious articles and spin.
>I grew up in a Jewish
> town and owe much of my own faith journey to the
>influence. I have a
> life long, deeply held aversion to anything that
>might even indirectly
> encourage any form of anti-Semitic thought,
>language or actions.
>
> I arrived at the private viewing for "The
>Passion", held in Washington
> DC and greeted some familiar faces. The
>environment was typically
> Washingtonian, with people greeting you with a
>smile but seeming to look
> beyond you, having an agenda beyond the words. The
>film was very briefly
> introduced, without fanfare, and then the room
>darkened.
>
> From the gripping opening scene in the Garden of
>Gethsemane, to the very
> human and tender portrayal of the earthly ministry
>of Jesus, through the
> betrayal, the arrest, the scourging, the way of
>the cross, the encounter
> with the thieves, the surrender on the Cross,
>until the final scene in
> the empty tomb, this was not simply a movie; it
>was an encounter, unlike
> anything I have ever experienced.
>
> In addition to being a masterpiece of film-making
>and an artistic
> triumph, "The Passion" evoked more deep
>reflection, sorrow and emotional
> reaction within me than anything since my wedding,
>my ordination or the
> birth of my children. Frankly, I will never be the
>same.
>
> When the film concluded, this "invitation only"
>gathering of "movers and
> shakers" in Washington, DC were shaking indeed,
>but this time from
> sobbing. I am not sure there was a dry eye in the
>place. The crowd that
> had been glad-handing before the film was now
>eerily silent. No one
> could speak because words were woefully
>inadequate. We had experienced a
> kind of art that is a rarity in life, the kind
>that makes heaven touch
> earth.
>
> One scene in the film has now been forever etched
>in my mind. A
> brutalized, wounded Jesus was soon to fall again
>under the weight of the
> cross. His mother had made her way along the Via
>Della Rosa. As she ran
> to him, she flashed back to a memory of Jesus as a
>child, falling in the
> dirt road outside of their home. Just as she
>reached to protect him from
> the fall, she was now reaching to touch his
>wounded adult face. Jesus
> looked at her with intensely probing and
>passionately loving eyes (and
> at all of us through the screen) and said "Behold
>I make all things
> new."
>
> These are words taken from the last Book of the
>New Testament, the Book
> of Revelations. Suddenly, the purpose of the pain
>was so clear and the
> wounds, that earlier in the film had been so
>difficult to see in His
> face, His back, indeed all over His body, became
>intensely beautiful.
> They had been borne voluntarily for love.
>
> At the end of the film, after we had all had a
>chance to recover, a
> question and answer period ensued. The unanimous
>praise for the film,
> from a rather diverse crowd, was as astounding as
>the compliments were
> effusive. The questions included the one question
>that seems to follow
> this film, even though it has not yet even been
>released. "Why is this
> film considered by some to be "anti-Semitic?"
>
> Frankly, having now experienced (you do not "view"
>this film) "The
> Passion" it is a question that is impossible to
>answer. A law professor
> whom I admire sat in front of me. He raised his
>hand and responded
> "After watching this film, I do not understand how
>anyone can insinuate
> that it even remotely presents that the Jews
>killed Jesus. It doesn't."
> He continued "It made me realize that my sins
>killed Jesus" .
>
> I agree. There is not a scintilla of anti-Semitism
>to be found anywhere
> in this powerful film. If there were, I would be
>among the first to
> decry it. It faithfully tells the Gospel story in
>a dramatically
> beautiful, sensitive and profoundly engaging way.
>Those who are alleging
> otherwise have either not seen the film or have
>another agenda behind
> their protestations.
>
> This is not a "Christian" film, in the sense that
>it will appeal only to
> those who identify themselves as followers of
>Jesus Christ. It is a
> deeply human, beautiful story that will deeply
>touch all men and women.
> It is a profound work of art. Yes, its producer
>is a Catholic Christian
> and thankfully has remained faithful to the Gospel
>text; if that is no
> longer acceptable behavior than we are all in
>trouble. History demands
> that we remain faithful to the story and
>Christians have a right to tell
> it. After all, we believe that it is the greatest
>story ever told and
> that its message is for all men and women. The
>greatest right is the
> right to hear the truth.
>
> We would all be well advised to remember that the
>Gospel narratives to
> which "The Passion" is so faithful were written by
>Jewish men who
> followed a Jewish Rabbi whose life and teaching
>have forever changed the
> history of the world. The problem is not the
>message but those who have
> distorted it and used it for hate rather than
>love. The solution is not
> to censor the message, but rather to promote the
>kind of gift of love
> that is Mel Gibson's film making masterpiece, "The
>Passion."
>
> It should be seen by as many people as possible. I
>intend to do
> everything I can to make sure that is the case. I
>am passionate about
> "The Passion." You will be as well. Don't miss
>it!
 
I agree Fred. I am very sympathetic to the RC's.

And you know I would never teach their doctrines. I talk to many of them and always encourage them to question the Roman doctrines of justification with an open bible and a prayerful heart.

I guess I feel like the Reformation has never ended. And I cannot help the compassion I feel towards the seemingly lost sheep.
 
[quote:ba175daa62][i:ba175daa62]Originally posted by Visigoth[/i:ba175daa62]
I agree Fred. I am very sympathetic to the RC's.

And you know I would never teach their doctrines. I talk to many of them and always encourage them to question the Roman doctrines of justification with an open bible and a prayerful heart.

I guess I feel like the Reformation has never ended. And I cannot help the compassion I feel towards the seemingly lost sheep. [/quote:ba175daa62]

Mark,

I understand that. I hope others do not hear me saying that you teach Romanism. You have never suggested such. But I do disagree with your pastoral sympathies here - not because you care for souls; that is laudable. IT is because I think your choice does not prove ultimately the best for them.

I don't say this from an ivory tower - my entire extended family is Roman Catholic, including my parents and sister.
 
Fed:

[1] The existence of the rite counters the abolutistic arguments made by you and others. The basic theme has been all images of Christ's body are wrong. I pointed to a divinely ordained image of Christ's body, which demonstrates that it is not the case that all images of Christ's body are wrong. Now your response shifts to a different topic - manmade vs. divinely ordained.

[2] I deny that your interpretation of the second commandment is part of "historic orthodoxy." I think I mentioned this earlier.

Scott
 
[quote:f0f717dbba][i:f0f717dbba]Originally posted by Scott[/i:f0f717dbba]
Fed:

[1] The existence of the rite counters the abolutistic arguments made by you and others. The basic theme has been all images of Christ's body are wrong. I pointed to a divinely ordained image of Christ's body, which demonstrates that it is not the case that all images of Christ's body are wrong. Now your response shifts to a different topic - manmade vs. divinely ordained.

[2] I deny that your interpretation of the second commandment is part of "historic orthodoxy." I think I mentioned this earlier.

Scott [/quote:f0f717dbba]

Scott,

Let me say it again so it is clear. The basic theme is NOT that all images of Christ are wrong. The commandment does not say that, the Catechism does not say that, I have NEVER said that. What I HAVE said is that all [b:f0f717dbba]man-made[/b:f0f717dbba] images of any Person of the Godhead (yes, the silly birds in every "Christian bookstore" need to go too) are wrong.

This is important, and it is pretty simple. Why do you keep missing this?
 
Fred: No need to suggest that I have a hard time grasping simple things (it is insulting). I agree with Always Reforming that the need for charity and unity among Reformed and Protestants is important. In that spirit, I will discontiue this thread.

Scott
 
I am not sure how to say this, so please bear with me.

I have not been able to keep up with my Purtitan Board readings. This thread is one of the ones that I decided to skip over. But there was a cause for me to have a look at it. I was about halfway through the second page when it got to me. So I just have to post something before I can carry on.

I have noticed on a number of occasions that Bible texts are used to clarify or authorize certain notions. Again, I noticed that as many times these texts are relegaated to a back seat on the pretext that they are inconclusive for the second party of the discussion. I just want to point out that Christianity is not a textual free-for-all. Whatever we may be debating concerning the violation of the second commandment, relegating Scripture itself is worse. It is never a matter of whether a text says one thing to you or another to someone else; the question is whether we are listening to what Scripture itself is saying. For that purpose we have officers in the church.
 
[quote:d28b6717d8][i:d28b6717d8]Originally posted by Scott[/i:d28b6717d8]
Fred: No need to suggest that I have a hard time grasping simple things (it is insulting). I agree with Always Reforming that the need for charity and unity among Reformed and Protestants is important. In that spirit, I will discontiue this thread.

Scott [/quote:d28b6717d8]

Scott,

My sincere apologies for insinuating that you cannot grasp simple things. I wrote poorly, and harshly. In fact, not only did I offend you, but I did not get my point across, and so I do not have the justification or excuse of using polemics in an argument (which is legitimate at times). Please forgive me for the offense.

What I meant to comment upon was why my argument was being misconstrued by several persons several times after I have made several efforts to make it clear.(how's that for aliteration? )
 
[quote:d1c790abf3][i:d1c790abf3]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:d1c790abf3]
The fish too! :thumbdown: [/quote:d1c790abf3]

Actually, I have no [b:d1c790abf3]theological[/b:d1c790abf3] problem with the fish. It is not intended to represent any Person of the Godhead, and thus is not a violation.

Having said that, this ancient Christian symbol has been trivialized by "Christian-ese" "bookstores," crafts, et al. Kind of like the cross.
 
Fred

This is a serious question without my typical sarcasm. I collect antiques and one of mine is a Russian Orthodox icon that depicts the transfiguration. I bought it solely because it is a beautiful piece of antique folk art, not because I think that Jesus really looked like the guy in the picture. I also have a carved cross, a hand carved collection plate, a kneeling bench, and an irish catholic confessional that we have used as a phone booth at times. While these items have great significance and even depict the Godhead to others they are meaningless to us other than as beautiful examples of handicraft. They are in the same category to me as the carved cat and mummy that I picked up in Egypt. In all cases some spiritually blind people worshipped with them a long time ago. As I understand your argument, you would suggest that I not have these items?

Chuck
 
OK, I'm caught up, at least on this one.
One thing that has just been hinted at, but not explicitly examined is the fact that all non-autorized renditions of Christ and His work [i:66b0cd925d]impose[/i:66b0cd925d] upon the depiction that imagination of the one depicting. Whether it is Mel Gibson or an historic relic with some sentiment or importance attached to it, it is an unauthorized depiction of what only the gospel writers had a right to, given to them for the sole purpose of the propogation of the gospel.

Scripture's account is true, and can be examined for the purposes of faith; but a human oriented depiction can only depict any account of Jusus life from the precast of personal belief, personal reaction, or personal intent, and not from the Spirit's leading. What good does such a depiction do? What good can it do? It seems to me that it is emotional in effect, not factual or doctrinal. This is the sticking point concerning the second cammandment; for the danger of adding a non- God ordained tidbit, no matter how small, makes the gospel equal to something less than holy.

So it seems to me that the question concerning the movie is rather about how holy we believe the Word of God is, and whether the gospel may be portrayed outside the auspices of the Chruch, without ordained men presenting it or presiding over it, and with the added flair and colour that popularizing it includes without explicit command from God for it.

In short, where are Mr. Gibson's credentials to make this movie, regardless of the good he may have intended?
 
[quote:1e273c3efa][i:1e273c3efa]Originally posted by twogunfighter[/i:1e273c3efa]
Fred

This is a serious question without my typical sarcasm. I collect antiques and one of mine is a Russian Orthodox icon that depicts the transfiguration. I bought it solely because it is a beautiful piece of antique folk art, not because I think that Jesus really looked like the guy in the picture. I also have a carved cross, a hand carved collection plate, a kneeling bench, and an irish catholic confessional that we have used as a phone booth at times. While these items have great significance and even depict the Godhead to others they are meaningless to us other than as beautiful examples of handicraft. They are in the same category to me as the carved cat and mummy that I picked up in Egypt. In all cases some spiritually blind people worshipped with them a long time ago. As I understand your argument, you would suggest that I not have these items?

Chuck [/quote:1e273c3efa]

Chuck,

I do not think there is any need to give over such objects to the devil [i:1e273c3efa]per se[/i:1e273c3efa] because they have been used in idolatry. I think the confessional, for example, is much like the meat in Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians. The only thing that I, were I your pastor, would counsel you to get rid of would be an object that either: broke the second commandment by depicting God (in any of the Three Persons), or an object that you believed caused you to stumble and you could not have in good conscience. Otherwise, I would say enjoy your phone booth!

Does that help?
 
Paul,
Is it not enough that the portrayal of Christ in this movie is a semi-Pelagian Christ? Is it not enough that even Gibson admitted during his interview w/ D. Sawyer that he believes that there is more than one way to skin a cat? Why would you want to facilitate this lie by helping to support it?

[Edited on 2-19-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top