The people of God and the land of Israel

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Joe Keysor

Puritan Board Freshman
I infer from the "Israel and the land promises" thread that this is not the wrong place for this question:

Not long ago a group of evangelicals issued the following statement:


The People of God, the Land of Israel, and the Impartiality of the Gospel

Recently a number of leaders in the Protestant community of the United States have urged the endorsement of far-reaching and unilateral political commitments to the people and land of Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, citing Holy Scripture as the basis for those commitments. To strengthen their endorsement, several of these leaders have also insisted that they speak on behalf of the seventy million people who constitute the American evangelical community.

It is good and necessary for evangelical leaders to speak out on the great moral issues of our day in obedience to Christ's call for his disciples to be salt and light in the world.1 It is quite another thing, however, when leaders call for commitments that are based upon a serious misreading of Holy Scripture. In such instances, it is good and necessary for other evangelical leaders to speak out as well. We do so here in the hope that we may contribute to the cause of the Lord Christ, apart from whom there can never be true and lasting peace in the world.2

At the heart of the political commitments in question are two fatally flawed propositions. First, some are teaching that God's alleged favor toward Israel today is based upon ethnic descent rather than upon the grace of Christ alone, as proclaimed in the Gospel. Second, others are teaching that the Bible's promises concerning the land are fulfilled in a special political region or "Holy Land," perpetually set apart by God for one ethnic group alone. As a result of these false claims, large segments of the evangelical community, our fellow citizens, and our government are being misled with regard to the Bible's teachings regarding the people of God, the land of Israel, and the impartiality of the Gospel.

In what follows, we make our convictions public. We do so acknowledging the genuine evangelical faith of many who will not agree with us. Knowing that we may incur their disfavor, we are nevertheless constrained by Scripture and by conscience to publish the following propositions for the cause of Christ and truth.

1. The Gospel offers eternal life in heaven to Jews and Gentiles alike as a free gift in Jesus Christ.3 Eternal life in heaven is not earned or deserved, nor is it based upon ethnic descent or natural birth.4
2. All human beings, Jews and Gentiles alike, are sinners,5 and, as such, they are under God's judgment of death.6 Because God's standard is perfect obedience and all are sinners, it is impossible for anyone to gain temporal peace or eternal life by his own efforts. Moreover, apart from Christ, there is no special divine favor upon any member of any ethnic group; nor, apart from Christ, is there any divine promise of an earthly land or a heavenly inheritance to anyone, whether Jew or Gentile.7 To teach or imply otherwise is nothing less than to compromise the Gospel itself.
3. God, the Creator of all mankind, is merciful and takes no pleasure in punishing sinners.8 Yet God is also holy and just and must punish sin.9 Therefore, to satisfy both his justice and his mercy, God has appointed one way of salvation for all, whether Jew or Gentile, in Jesus Christ alone.10
4. Jesus Christ, who is fully God and fully man,11 came into the world to save sinners.12 In his death upon the cross, Jesus was the Lamb of God taking away the sin of the world, of Jew and of Gentile alike. The death of Jesus forever fulfilled and eternally ended the sacrifices of the Jewish temple.13 All who would worship God, whether Jew or Gentile, must now come to him in spirit and truth through Jesus Christ alone. The worship of God is no longer identified with any specific earthly sanctuary. He receives worship only through Jesus Christ, the eternal and heavenly Temple.14
5. To as many as receive and rest upon Christ alone through faith alone, to Jews and Gentiles alike, God gives eternal life in his heavenly inheritance.15
6. The inheritance promises that God gave to Abraham were made effective through Christ, Abraham's True Seed.16 These promises were not and cannot be made effective through sinful man's keeping of God's law.17 Rather, the promise of an inheritance is made to those only who have faith in Jesus, the True Heir of Abraham. All spiritual benefits are derived from Jesus, and apart from him there is no participation in the promises.18 Since Jesus Christ is the Mediator of the Abrahamic Covenant, all who bless him and his people will be blessed of God, and all who curse him and his people will be cursed of God.19 These promises do not apply to any particular ethnic group,20 but to the church of Jesus Christ, the true Israel.21 The people of God, whether the church of Israel in the wilderness in the Old Testament22 or the Israel of God among the Gentile Galatians in the New Testament,23 are one body who through Jesus will receive the promise of the heavenly city, the everlasting Zion.24 This heavenly inheritance has been the expectation of the people of God in all ages.25
7. Jesus taught that his resurrection was the raising of the True Temple of Israel.26 He has replaced the priesthood, sacrifices, and sanctuary of Israel by fulfilling them in his own glorious priestly ministry and by offering, once and for all, his sacrifice for the world, that is, for both Jew and Gentile.27 Believers from all nations are now being built up through him into this Third Temple,28 the church that Jesus promised to build.29
8. Simon Peter spoke of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in conjunction with the final judgment and the punishment of sinners.30 Instructively, this same Simon Peter, the Apostle to the Circumcision,31 says nothing about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel in the land of Palestine.32 Instead, as his readers contemplate the promise of Jesus' Second Coming, he fixes their hope upon the new heavens and the new earth, in which righteousness dwells.33
9. The entitlement of any one ethnic or religious group to territory in the Middle East called the "Holy Land" cannot be supported by Scripture. In fact, the land promises specific to Israel in the Old Testament were fulfilled under Joshua.34 The New Testament speaks clearly and prophetically about the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70.35 No New Testament writer foresees a regathering of ethnic Israel in the land, as did the prophets of the Old Testament after the destruction of the first temple in 586 B.C.36 Moreover, the land promises of the Old Covenant are consistently and deliberately expanded in the New Testament to show the universal dominion of Jesus,37 who reigns from heaven upon the throne of David, inviting all the nations through the Gospel of Grace to partake of his universal and everlasting dominion.38
10. Bad Christian theology regarding the "Holy Land" contributed to the tragic cruelty of the Crusades in the Middle Ages. Lamentably, bad Christian theology is today attributing to secular Israel a divine mandate to conquer and hold Palestine, with the consequence that the Palestinian people are marginalized and regarded as virtual "Canaanites."39 This doctrine is both contrary to the teaching of the New Testament and a violation of the Gospel mandate.40 In addition, this theology puts those Christians who are urging the violent seizure and occupation of Palestinian land in moral jeopardy of their own bloodguiltiness. Are we as Christians not called to pray for and work for peace, warning both parties to this conflict that those who live by the sword will die by the sword?41 Only the Gospel of Jesus Christ can bring both temporal reconciliation and the hope of an eternal and heavenly inheritance to the Israeli and the Palestinian. Only through Jesus Christ can anyone know peace on earth.

The promised Messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ has been inaugurated. Its advent marks the focal point of human history. This kingdom of the Messiah is continuing to realize its fullness as believing Jews and Gentiles are added to the community of the redeemed in every generation. The same kingdom will be manifested in its final and eternal form with the return of Christ the King in all his glory.

Of all the nations, the Jewish people played the primary role in the coming of the Messianic kingdom. New Testament Scripture declares that to them were given the oracles of God,42 the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises.43 Theirs are the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and from them, according to the flesh, came Christ.44 Salvation is, indeed, of the Jews.45 While affirming the Scriptural teaching that there is no salvation outside of Christ, Christians should acknowledge with heartfelt sorrow and grief the frequent oppression of the Jews in history, sometimes tragically done in the name of the cross.

But what are we to make of the unbelief of Israel? Has their unbelief made the faithfulness of God without effect for them?46 No, God has not completely rejected the people of Israel,47 and we join the apostle Paul in his earnest prayer for the salvation of his Jewish kinsmen according to the flesh.48 There always has been and always will be a remnant that is saved.49 While not all Israel will experience the blessing of participation in the Messianic kingdom,50 yet Jews who do come to faith in Christ will share in his reign throughout the present age and into eternity. In addition, it is not as though the rejection of some in Israel for unbelief serves no purpose. On the contrary, because they were broken off in unbelief, the Gospel has gone to the Gentiles, who now, through faith, partake of the blessings to the fathers and join with believing Jews to constitute the true Israel of God, the church of Jesus Christ.51

The present secular state of Israel, however, is not an authentic or prophetic realization of the Messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, a day should not be anticipated in which Christ's kingdom will manifest Jewish distinctives, whether by its location in "the land," by its constituency, or by its ceremonial institutions and practices. Instead, this present age will come to a climactic conclusion with the arrival of the final, eternal phase of the kingdom of the Messiah. At that time, all eyes, even of those who pierced him, will see the King in his glory.52 Every knee will bow, and every tongue will declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.53 The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever.54

In light of the grand prophetic expectation of the New Testament, we urge our evangelical brothers and sisters to return to the proclamation of the free offer of Christ's grace in the Gospel to all the children of Abraham, to pray for peace between Israelis and Palestinians, and to promise all humanitarian sympathy and practical support for those on both sides who are suffering in this current vicious cycle of atrocity and displacement. We also invite those Christian educators and pastors who share our convictions on the people of God, the land of Israel, and the impartiality of the Gospel to join their names with ours as signatories to this open letter.55

Advent
In the Year of our Lord 2002
Soli Deo Gloria

Does anyone know of a serious rebuttal to this?

Do most of the members on this board agree or disagree with the statement?
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
I agree with the statement. We are the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16). The Jews were cut off from the olive branch through unbelief (Romans 11). Although there may be political reasons to support Israel, there are not theological reasons.
 

Joe Keysor

Puritan Board Freshman
I agree with the statement. We are the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16). The Jews were cut off from the olive branch through unbelief (Romans 11). Although there may be political reasons to support Israel, there are not theological reasons.
I basically agree with the statement. It correctly interprets the biblical data.

I agree that true Christians are the Israel of God. We are the true Jews who are in Christ, being descendents of Abraham by adoption as we have the faith of Abraham. Unbelieving Jews are Jews in the flesh but not in the heart, and God has broken them off. However, Romans does plainly refer to the branch which was broken off being grafted in again. I believe God will at some point bring the Jews back to saving faith in Christ.

That doesn't say anything about political Israel.

I see a lot of doctrinal truth in the statement, but several problems which I hope to post shortly.
 

Joe Keysor

Puritan Board Freshman
About the statement, there are many things in it that are doctrinally true - as far as the ABC's of salvation I don't see anything wrong with it.

I don't see where it acknowledges God's sovereign control over the events there. Some have already admitted on this board that the return of the Jews was the result of God's sovereign will, even as they deny it was a fulfilment of prophecy. If it was God's will for the Jews to return to the land and be victorious against great odds, it does raise a question as to what God's purpose might be. This point is not addressed.

Paul says in Acts 17:26 that God has determined "the bounds of their habitation," referring to the nations of men. Now, I know that many people consider that to have been true in bible times, but do not believe that God today determines the boundaries of the nations. I believe that God raised up America, and blessed the American people with a freedom and a measure of gospel light and prosperity known to few other nations. Was he wrong to favor the Americans in this way? Must he deal with all nations equally? Does he not have the right to lift up one nation and bring another down, to bless one and not another? If God wants to give the Japanese a state, and the French, and the Mexicans, is he now forbidden to give the Jews a state? If God says i will give the Japanese this land and the British this island and the Jews this land, is that ethnic favoritism that conflicts with the gospel?

But what about the Palestinians? Don't they deserve a state? Do the American blacks who want to separate deserve their own state? Should the American Indians take up arms and start suicide bombing to fight for their own state? Their are many ethnic groups in the world that do not have their own state. Nowhere is it written that an independent state is the right of every ethnic group.

Saying that God has given the Jews the land, and that they have the right to defend themselves instead of just allowing themselves to be slaughtered in no way contradicts the gospel of Jesus Christ - unless saying that God has given the Americans a nation and they are allowed to defend themselves is against the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The gospel says that members of Al-Qaeda are candidates for the gospel and can be saved. So we should pray for them and try to help them, and if the US government tries to fight them and protect the American people this is a "Cycle of violence" for which the Americans are equally to blame and Christians should support both sides equally?

Only the Jews are forbidden to have their own nation? But God has decreed otherwise.

The statement says nothing about the origins of the conflict - and hence it does not know any solution. It has a lot of spiritual generalities that do not deal with the fact that many Palestinians want only to destroy Israel and slaughter the Jews, and that there is no chance whatsoever of talking with them, that giving the Palestinians a state will not bring peace but will only intensify the violence.

The spiritual generalities have nothing to do with the real world, and this is one of the biggest problems in the church today - spiritual ABC's that are true in themselves, but have nothing to do with the problems of real life.

They deny the land is for the Jews alone, and think it should be shared - too bad Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not agree with this and are determined to destroy Israel. The Arabs have the right to a state - they have many states. Nowhere in the gospel does it say that the Jews are forbidden to have a state.

It says the land promises were fulfilled under Joshua. What about Moses' statement that if the Jews disobey God too much God will cast them out of the land in his fury? Was that fulfilled in the time of Joshua? Do God's prophecies stop with Joshua? That they would be cast out of the land and later restored to it were also prophesied, and after Joshua. Anyone who thinks it stops with Joshua has nothing to say about biblical prophecy in my opinion. What about Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah?

The document does not address the key questions: do the Jews have the right to have a state? If they stole the land from the Palestinians and have no right to a state, then the Americans stole the land from the Indians and have no right to a state. Saying that the land belongs to the Americans is contrary to the gospel, Americans and Indians are both equal before God spiritually, so they should share the land.

Secondly, what is the source of the conflict? A cycle of violence in which both sides are guilty, or a deep seated Moslem determination to destroy Israel because it is intolerable that the people of the one true religion (Islam) should be defeated and ruled by Jewish dogs?

The document shows no knowledge whatsoever of the origins of the conflict, and offers no practical solution, only pious generalities that have nothing to do with reality.

As to the Palestinian people being marginalized, if they had not tried to slaughter and exterminate the Jews, if the Arabs had not immediately attacked Israel they day it was created and destroyed the UN compromise of sharing the land, the situation would be very different. They have marginalized themselves by missing and rejecting every opportunity for peace solely because of a blind hatred.

There are Palestinian Christians who are willing to accept Israel and live with it. They are given no voice and in fact dare not speak out because they will be killed. There is a great deal of persecution of Palestinian Christians by Moslem extremists and the writers of the paper do not seem to have any interest in that. The Christians were safer under Israeli control before the intifada and they know it.

In short, the statement seems to me to be totally divorced from the reality of the Middle East and is nothing but a bunch of cloudy generalities floating far above the real world - as if I were to go to the doctor with severe chest pains and he said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" - doctrinally true, but irrelevant to the problem at hand.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
I don't see where it acknowledges God's sovereign control over the events there. Some have already admitted on this board that the return of the Jews was the result of God's sovereign will, even as they deny it was a fulfilment of prophecy. If it was God's will for the Jews to return to the land and be victorious against great odds, it does raise a question as to what God's purpose might be. This point is not addressed.

There is a difference between the Return of the Jews and the Massive Conversion of the Jews prophecied in Romans 11. Simply because God allows someone to return to their homeland, or be victorious in battle, do not mistake it for it being His "will."

Of your second paragraphy, I agree with the most part. In fact, I have used that verse in Acts for a justification of isolationism (and got in trouble for it). However, you really don't argue the point, rather, just state some (very good, I might add) facts about nations.

Saying that God has given the Jews the land, and that they have the right to defend themselves instead of just allowing themselves to be slaughtered in no way contradicts the gospel of Jesus Christ - unless saying that God has given the Americans a nation and they are allowed to defend themselves is against the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We are not saying that. I have noticed that you are putting words into our mouths and then repeatedly point out to us that we have not answered your arguments. It doesn't conflict with the gospel. The fact is that neither you nor I have any biblical warrant for the Jews being there, except for the vague argument that God is sovereign and wanted them there. Hindsight is 20/20

The gospel says that members of Al-Qaeda are candidates for the gospel and can be saved. So we should pray for them and try to help them, and if the US government tries to fight them and protect the American people this is a "Cycle of violence" for which the Americans are equally to blame and Christians should support both sides equally?
I pray that both sides stop worshipping Baal. Other than that, I do not support government interference in the Middle East.

The statement says nothing about the origins of the conflict - and hence it does not know any solution. It has a lot of spiritual generalities that do not deal with the fact that many Palestinians want only to destroy Israel and slaughter the Jews, and that there is no chance whatsoever of talking with them, that giving the Palestinians a state will not bring peace but will only intensify the violence.
A small, but distinct, number of Palestinians happen to be Christian, should we drive them off their land?
It is against Jewish law for Christians to proselytize, but God is favorably looking down on the Jews.

It says the land promises were fulfilled under Joshua. What about Moses' statement that if the Jews disobey God too much God will cast them out of the land in his fury? Was that fulfilled in the time of Joshua? Do God's prophecies stop with Joshua? That they would be cast out of the land and later restored to it were also prophesied, and after Joshua. Anyone who thinks it stops with Joshua has nothing to say about biblical prophecy in my opinion. What about Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah?
Yes....and a delayed yes. Gloriously the prophecies do not stop but continue. However, since we are the Israel of God, we inherit the land (not a small Palestine but the whole world!)

I have class in a few minutes, I will post more later.
 

Joe Keysor

Puritan Board Freshman
Draught Horse,

A highly complex subject.

I agree "There is a difference between the Return of the Jews and the Massive Conversion of the Jews prophecied in Romans 11." I feel the return of the Jews is preparation for the conversion, just as an unbeliever can still be led by God's prevenient grace toward a future conversion.

"Simply because God allows someone to return to their homeland, or be victorious in battle, do not mistake it for it being His 'will.' "

The fact is that the Jews returned and prevailed. Others on the board have agreed this was God's will, but is no proof of a prophetic fulfilment. But, God determined the outcomes of the wars.

I don't know if Acts can support isolationism. It refers to different countries, not to relationships between countries, but I didn't see your argument.

"unless saying that God has given the Americans a nation and they are allowed to defend themselves is against the gospel of Jesus Christ." I was not referring to you or anyone on the board by that, but for a nation to exist, and to defend itself against people who do not want compromise and are sworn to destroy it, is not contrary to the gospel. That seems to be implied in the statement, that it is contrary to the gospel because it is favoring the Jews to say they have a right to a state, and the gospel does not favor people.

You said "I have noticed that you are putting words into our mouths and then repeatedly point out to us that we have not answered your arguments. It doesn't conflict with the gospel. The fact is that neither you nor I have any biblical warrant for the Jews being there, except for the vague argument that God is sovereign and wanted them there. Hindsight is 20/20."

I don't think on this thread I have said anything about people not answering my arguments. It has happened to me on other threads and on other boards though, that some of my points are just blatantly unanswered.

I believe there is a biblical warrant for the Jews being there, but since i know that is disputed and don't want to get into a long debate about the prophecies, I will stick with the safe and obvious fact that the Jews have returned - was this done without God? Someone who says this happened without God does not believe God governs the world - and many Christians do not believe that. They do not believe God decided who won the last presidential election - that cancels out human free will and makes us all puppets!!!!!

The idea of the US not being involved in the Middle East is intriguing. I have some different ideas, but the government will not listen to us.

You said "A small, but distinct, number of Palestinians happen to be Christian, should we drive them off their land?" They would be allowed to stay in Israel, there are many Arabs living in Israel. It is the intifada and the attempt to destroy Israel that has caused so many problems. Many Arab Christians are fleeing because of persecution by fellow Palestinians.

"It is against Jewish law for Christians to proselytize, but God is favorably looking down on the Jews." In many cases in the Old Testament the Jews were wicked, yet God's sovereign purpose for them was not overruled.

I agree the church is the Israel of God, and true Christians will inherit the heavenly Jerusalem and a new heaven and a new earth. However, these spiritual truths have an earthly dimension. That David defeated Goliath is a great spiritual truth that applies to Christians today. So is the blood on the doorposts that spared the children of Israel from the angel of death, so is the exodus from Egypt - all of them have a spiritual application, but they also have a literal earthly application. I believe many prophecies applied to the church also have an earthly application in Israel which will be restored to the land, and is being restored to the land. I also believe Israel will grow as many more Jews come, possibly even fleeing from a collapsing America by the millions.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
I agree "There is a difference between the Return of the Jews and the Massive Conversion of the Jews prophecied in Romans 11." I feel the return of the Jews is preparation for the conversion, just as an unbeliever can still be led by God's prevenient grace toward a future conversion.

You feel? In the course of human events, you might feel right, but that is not biblical warrant; that is not "thus saith the Lord."

I was not referring to you or anyone on the board by that, but for a nation to exist, and to defend itself against people who do not want compromise and are sworn to destroy it, is not contrary to the gospel. That seems to be implied in the statement, that it is contrary to the gospel because it is favoring the Jews to say they have a right to a state, and the gospel does not favor people.

I am not saying it is contrary to the Gospel. I am saying that we as Christians do not have the responsibility to give tax dollars to the Jews. Also, I am all for resistance to tyrants and/or defending liberties. Your other thread seems to suggest that you hold a contrary view.

I believe there is a biblical warrant for the Jews being there, but since i know that is disputed and don't want to get into a long debate about the prophecies, I will stick with the safe and obvious fact that the Jews have returned - was this done without God? Someone who says this happened without God does not believe God governs the world - and many Christians do not believe that. They do not believe God decided who won the last presidential election - that cancels out human free will and makes us all puppets!!!!!

Who is the Israel of God? Your answer to that determines who inherits the land (more broader than Palestine).

I agree the church is the Israel of God, and true Christians will inherit the heavenly Jerusalem and a new heaven and a new earth. However, these spiritual truths have an earthly dimension. That David defeated Goliath is a great spiritual truth that applies to Christians today. So is the blood on the doorposts that spared the children of Israel from the angel of death, so is the exodus from Egypt - all of them have a spiritual application, but they also have a literal earthly application. I believe many prophecies applied to the church also have an earthly application in Israel which will be restored to the land, and is being restored to the land. I also believe Israel will grow as many more Jews come, possibly even fleeing from a collapsing America by the millions

No! You were almost right. Yes, there is an earthly dominion to the promises. Be consistent. Who is the Israel of God? Follow it through. When the Jews are converted to Christ and are then truly Abraham's seed, then they are the Israel of God, then they inherit the promises.
 

Joe Keysor

Puritan Board Freshman
You feel? In the course of human events, you might feel right, but that is not biblical warrant; that is not "thus saith the Lord."

I agree that feeling is not "Thus saith the Lord" of course, but I don't want to assert dogmatically that the vision of the dry bones shows the Jews first being reassembled in unbelief, and then after the assembly is complete having the spirit of life breathed into them. I could say "Thus saith the Lord" but I don't have the anointing of the Spirit to deliver that message in this place at this time and so my words would have no weight and could easily be dismissed.

I can say, based on a firm conviction and belief in scripture, that the return of the Jews did not take place without God's knowledge or contrary to his sovereign will. I do assert that the Lord determines the affairs of men and that it was God who gave the Jews their victories in 1948, 1967, and 1973. But this does not prove prophetic fulfilment, since God determines the outcomes of all earthly contests, not just those in the Middle East.

I think giving tax dollars to Israel is a good idea, as something constructive is done with it, unlike the vast amount of aid that has been squandered on other countries to no good purpose at all. Look at all of the billions that were squandered on the Viet Nam war for nothing. And all of the money that is wasted now on the Space Shuttle, useless projects, corruption, Pentagon waste - I would say money to Israel is one of the few good investments of federal money in the budget.

"Your other thread seems to suggest that you hold a contrary view." The Israelis have a legitimate government and this has the right of every other government to defend its citizens. I object to revolt against the existing power. And the Jews who revolted against British rule were of course not Christians, and not following New Testament teachings.

"Who is the Israel of God? Your answer to that determines who inherits the land (more broader than Palestine)."

I fall between two camps. I believe that the Israel of God are the elect who are saved by faith in Christ, both Jew and Gentile. The Israel of God is now the church. But, God does deal with the nations, and with unbelievers. The US has played a key role in modern history - this is from God. The Jews also have a role to play, and when the time is right the olive branch will be grafted again into its own tree, and the Jews as a nation (not necessarily 100%) will be restored to Christ through faith on an individual basis. When this happens they will have been gathered together into the land and in the right place and in the right time, just as an individual who comes to Christ can find that all of his pre-Christian experiences were part of God's prevenient grace leading him to the point where after salvation he could properly serve God in the place to which God was directing him all along.

I agree, "When the Jews are converted to Christ and are then truly Abraham's seed, then they are the Israel of God, then they inherit the promises" - if you mean the spiritual promises of forgiveness and fellowship with God. As to the earthly setting in which this occurs - well, the Jews won't be floating around in the clouds when this happens, they will be living in the world, and if God decrees that in preparation for their restoration they shall have first been gathered again to one place, and that place is the land of the bible, who is to say that is impossible with God, or contrary to scripture?

Unfortunately I have to cut back on my computer time - I thought my double vision had gone but it returned after all of my posts here in the past few days so I have to back out of this thread.

Anyway these are interesting questions but not essential to salvation, I am more concerned with biblical holiness, conformity to Christ in my inner man than in end times scenarios, though there is a place for discussion of such things of course.
 

BlackCalvinist

Puritan Board Senior
Originally posted by Joe Keysor Do the American blacks who want to separate deserve their own state? Should the American Indians take up arms and start suicide bombing to fight for their own state?

Off topic a bit......

but African-Americans were promised such. The gubmint reneged on their offer. :rolleyes:

and Native American folks seem to have had *some* land restored to them via the reservations all over the nation. Collectively, enough for a state......
 
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