The Persons of the Trinity - Equal in Glory?

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InSlaveryToChrist

Puritan Board Junior
I'm having some hard time understanding how exactly each person of the Trinity is equal in glory with one another. The problem lies here: God must prove His glory before He can declare Himself to be glorious. I see God's glory mostly in Christ Jesus who was greatly humiliated for sinners and even bore the wrath of God for sinners! But was the Father's act of giving up His only begotten Son EQUAL to the Son's obeying His Father? Were the sacrifices made from both parties EQUAL with each other? And what about the Holy Spirit? Is His regenerating work in men as glorious as Christ's sacrificial-love which He demonstrated through His life on Earth? To sum up, my problem is this: Although I do recognize the grace and mercy of the Father and the Holy Spirit in taking notice of such worms as us - even entering into a covenant with us! - I cannot see how they could possibly be EQUAL with Christ's beauty/glory.

Please, help me see through God's word, because my own eyes are so blind!
 
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InSlaveryToChrist

Puritan Board Junior
Any help here would be much appreciated! I cannot truly appreciate God the Father and God the Holy Spirit's love for me, unless I see they are EQUAL with God the Son's love for me. Why would I want to get access to the Father through the Son, when it seems I'm owing MUCH MORE gratitude towards the Son than the Father! It doesn't make any sense! Please, help!
 

amg

Puritan Board Freshman
I'm having some hard time understanding how exactly each person of the Trinity is equal in glory with one another. The problem lies here: God must prove His glory before He can declare Himself to be glorious. I see God's glory mostly in Christ Jesus who was greatly humiliated for sinners and even bore the wrath of God for sinners! But was the Father's act of giving up His only begotten Son EQUAL to the Son's obeying His Father? Were the sacrifices made from both parties EQUAL with each other? And what about the Holy Spirit? Is His regenerating work in men as glorious as Christ's sacrificial-love which He demonstrated through His life on Earth? To sum up, my problem is this: Although I do recognize the grace and mercy of the Father and the Holy Spirit in taking notice of such worms as us - even entering into a covenant with us! - I cannot see how they could possibly be EQUAL with Christ's beauty/glory.

Please, help me see through God's word, because my own eyes are so blind!

Samuel, you are wrong. God does not need to prove anything concerning the Godhead to the creation. It is of grace that He reveals Himself to us. God and God alone is inherently holy and glorious and it is the same with every divine perfection. Each of His perfections are perfectly perfect- regardless of whether He has manifested it to us.

Secondly, yes, Christ is glorious, but even the heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm 19.1; Romans 1.18-20).

Again, I refer you to the W.S.C. Q. 9. That concise question and answer addresses each of your concerns. Take the time to sit down and meditate over it.
 

InSlaveryToChrist

Puritan Board Junior
I'm having some hard time understanding how exactly each person of the Trinity is equal in glory with one another. The problem lies here: God must prove His glory before He can declare Himself to be glorious. I see God's glory mostly in Christ Jesus who was greatly humiliated for sinners and even bore the wrath of God for sinners! But was the Father's act of giving up His only begotten Son EQUAL to the Son's obeying His Father? Were the sacrifices made from both parties EQUAL with each other? And what about the Holy Spirit? Is His regenerating work in men as glorious as Christ's sacrificial-love which He demonstrated through His life on Earth? To sum up, my problem is this: Although I do recognize the grace and mercy of the Father and the Holy Spirit in taking notice of such worms as us - even entering into a covenant with us! - I cannot see how they could possibly be EQUAL with Christ's beauty/glory.

Please, help me see through God's word, because my own eyes are so blind!

Samuel, you are wrong. God does not need to prove anything concerning the Godhead to the creation. It is of grace that He reveals Himself to us. God and God alone is inherently holy and glorious and it is the same with every divine perfection. Each of His perfections are perfectly perfect- regardless of whether He has manifested it to us.

Secondly, yes, Christ is glorious, but even the heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm 19.1; Romans 1.18-20).

Again, I refer you to the W.S.C. Q. 9. That concise question and answer addresses each of your concerns. Take the time to sit down and meditate over it.

So, God could rightly call Himself love, even if He never showed any love to His creatures? Or are you saying the other persons of the Trinity love men as much as Christ does, yet their love is hidden from them?

I've read W.S.C. Q. 9. already, and I cannot see how it answers to my problem here.
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
You seem to be treating God as three parts rather than one God. When the Father receives glory, the Son and Spirit receive glory, because God - although Three Persons is one essence. The same goes for when the Son and Spirit are glorified. It is the Father's delight to be glorified in the Son and Spirit. It is the Son's delight to be glorified in the Father and the Spirit. It is the Spirit's delight to be glorified in the Father and the Son.

The problem lies here: God must prove His glory before He can declare Himself to be glorious.

God is essentially glorious. He was glorious before He had created any angel or man or other creature to reveal and/or admire His glory.

To sum up, my problem is this: Although I do recognize the grace and mercy of the Father and the Holy Spirit in taking notice of such worms as us - even entering into a covenant with us! - I cannot see how they could possibly be EQUAL with Christ's beauty/glory.

I think you need to look at the Scripturally-based ideas of the "ontological" and "economic" Trinity.

In His being - not in relation to creation - God is essentially glorious and the Three Persons of the Trinity were and are from eternity equal in power and glory. This is the "ontological" Triunity.

In God's great works which are

(a) Creation and Sustenance of what He has made.

(b) Providence

(c) Redemption

the different Persons of the Trinity take on different roles to reveal the glory of the others and to reveal the glory of God. This is the "economic" Trinity.

It is the peculiar role of the Son (or the Word) to reveal God. It is the peculiar role of the Holy Spirit to be active in applying that revelation to the creation.

It doesn't make any sense! Please, help!

You need to be more patient in your study of God's Word. It takes time to understand the things of God. Trust God that if you patiently seek by prayerfully studying the Bible and testing good books by good men, that things will slowly become clearer. Stop expecting to be able to see or understand everything at once.

Why would I want to get access to the Father through the Son, when it seems I'm owing MUCH MORE gratitude towards the Son than the Father! It doesn't make any sense! Please, help!

But because the Father and the Spirit share the same One essence with the Son, the work of the Son perfectly reveals the nature and character and essence of the Father and the Spirit, but it wasn't their role to go to the Cross.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:8-11, KJV)

I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)


Quote from Samuel
yet their love is hidden from them?

Their love is revealed in Christ. In the great work of God often called "Redemption", the Son particularly and peculiarly comes to glorify the Father, while the Spirit particularly and peculiarly comes to glorify the Father and the Son. All to the glory of the Triune Jehovah (Yahweh).

See the Gospel of John for starters.
 
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InSlaveryToChrist

Puritan Board Junior
You seem to be treating God as three parts rather than one God. When the Father receives glory, the Son and Spirit receive glory, because God - although Three Persons is one essence. The same goes for when the Son and Spirit are glorified. It is the Father's delight to be glorified in the Son and Spirit. It is the Son's delight to be glorified in the Father and the Spirit. It is the Spirit's delight to be glorified in the Father and the Son.

The problem lies here: God must prove His glory before He can declare Himself to be glorious.

God is essentially glorious. He was glorious before He had created any angel or man or other creature to reveal and/or admire His glory.

To sum up, my problem is this: Although I do recognize the grace and mercy of the Father and the Holy Spirit in taking notice of such worms as us - even entering into a covenant with us! - I cannot see how they could possibly be EQUAL with Christ's beauty/glory.

I think you need to look at the Scripturally-based ideas of the "ontological" and "economic" Trinity.

In His being - not in relation to creation - God is essentially glorious and the Three Persons of the Trinity were and are from eternity equal in power and glory. This is the "ontological" Triunity.

In God's great works which are

(a) Creation and Sustenance of what He has made.

(b) Providence

(c) Redemption

the different Persons of the Trinity take on different roles to reveal the glory of the others and to reveal the glory of God. This is the "economic" Trinity.

It is the peculiar role of the Son (or the Word) to reveal God. It is the peculiar role of the Holy Spirit to be active in applying that revelation to the creation.

It doesn't make any sense! Please, help!

You need to be more patient in your study of God's Word. It takes time to understand the things of God. Trust God that if you patiently seek by prayerfully studying the Bible and testing good books by good men, that things will slowly become clearer. Stop expecting to be able to see or understand everything at once.

Why would I want to get access to the Father through the Son, when it seems I'm owing MUCH MORE gratitude towards the Son than the Father! It doesn't make any sense! Please, help!

But because the Father and the Spirit share the same One essence with the Son, the work of the Son perfectly reveals the nature and character and essence of the Father and the Spirit, but it wasn't their role to go to the Cross.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:8-11, KJV)

Thank you, Richard. I think you shed some light to my dark eyes. I've never heard of "ontological" or "economic" Trinity. I should indeed spend more time meditating on the basic truths of the Trinity. Something doesn't seem to be right, when I don't tremble at these truths. I hope you would pray for me.

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

Why would I want to get access to the Father through the Son, when it seems I'm owing MUCH MORE gratitude towards the Son than the Father! It doesn't make any sense! Please, help!

But because the Father and the Spirit share the same One essence with the Son, the work of the Son perfectly reveals the nature and character and essence of the Father and the Spirit, but it wasn't their role to go to the Cross.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:8-11, KJV)

I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)


Quote from Samuel
yet their love is hidden from them?

Their love is revealed in Christ. In the great work of God often called "Redemption", the Son particularly and peculiarly comes to glorify the Father, while the Spirit particularly and peculiarly comes to glorify the Father and the Son. All to the glory of the Triune Jehovah (Yahweh).

See the Gospel of John for starters.

Thank you, thank you! Now I see!!! How blind have I've been!!! Not that I have never known these truths, but I have totally forgotten them! This is the reason we should be renewing our minds daily! We must preach the Gospel to ourselves all the time! We must learn the same truths about God and us every day!
 

ServantsHeart

Puritan Board Freshman
Samuel, Greetings to you my Brother may Pauls prayer in Ephesians 1:15 to 23 be answered as you seek to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. I want to encourage you to carefully,patiently and prayerfully pursue a consistant study of the High Doctrine of The Holy Trinity. I would simply add a few helpful things to consider in this study and really any study of Scripture. First, Always begin every study of GODS word in humble prayer and acknowledgement of you need of the illumination of the Holy Spirit our Helper/Teacher. Second,before you consult Confessions,Commentaries or Teachers anywhere study the clear passages of Scripture and in humble Faith before GOD ask Him for help. That help will come at times and to some degree from the resources mentioned above they are a means to aide us and keep us from error. Third,If after you study the Doctrine your still not grasping what the Scriptures teach in a full orbed way then understand what is clear is to be held to untill further light is given. For 30 years I have studied the Holy Trinity and have far from mastered all the truth of this great Doctrine but much has been gained and maturity has come. Many of the Deep and Hard to understand things of GOD only become clearer when other Doctrines are systematically grasped at the same time. It is ONE TRUTH like one Diamond but has many Facets. Let the Holy Spirit be the Glass through which you look,slowly in a focused manner always looking to the Master Stone Cutter. GOD the Father>Son>Holy Spirit be with you and help you.
 

InSlaveryToChrist

Puritan Board Junior
Samuel, Greetings to you my Brother may Pauls prayer in Ephesians 1:15 to 23 be answered as you seek to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. I want to encourage you to carefully,patiently and prayerfully pursue a consistant study of the High Doctrine of The Holy Trinity. I would simply add a few helpful things to consider in this study and really any study of Scripture. First, Always begin every study of GODS word in humble prayer and acknowledgement of you need of the illumination of the Holy Spirit our Helper/Teacher. Second,before you consult Confessions,Commentaries or Teachers anywhere study the clear passages of Scripture and in humble Faith before GOD ask Him for help. That help will come at times and to some degree from the resources mentioned above they are a means to aide us and keep us from error. Third,If after you study the Doctrine your still not grasping what the Scriptures teach in a full orbed way then understand what is clear is to be held to untill further light is given. For 30 years I have studied the Holy Trinity and have far from mastered all the truth of this great Doctrine but much has been gained and maturity has come. Many of the Deep and Hard to understand things of GOD only become clearer when other Doctrines are systematically grasped at the same time. It is ONE TRUTH like one Diamond but has many Facets. Let the Holy Spirit be the Glass through which you look,slowly in a focused manner always looking to the Master Stone Cutter. GOD the Father>Son>Holy Spirit be with you and help you.

Dear Brother in Christ, thank you for your advice and encouraging words. God has recently made it so clear to me that I cannot lean to my own understanding in absolutely anything. I must realize I've inherited my whole worldview solely by our modern day culture, and all of it is false! I must be renewed in the wisdom of God, and abandon my worldly thinking! I've no right to answer back to God - I should just keep silent and behold God's majesty! And that will I do as I explore His Word. Thank you, again, for your great concern! Our glorious Triune God be with us.
 

bookslover

Puritan Board Doctor
One simple way to think of this is to remember that all three members of the Trinity are exactly the same, ontologically (that is, in their essence as God). So, each of the three Persons is just exactly as glorious as the other two, since all three are God. (The "economic" Trinity refers to the division of work, so to speak, between the three Persons in regard to the salvation of the elect.)
 
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