The Pledge of Allegiance

[W.C. Dean]

Hopefully this is the right category -

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the Pledge of Allegiance. I think we all pretty much agree that we shouldn't sing patriotic hymns or have American flags in our sanctuaries, but I have some thoughts about the Pledge. Most important is its charge 'under God' (which by the way, was not added originally). Quite a few years ago the OPC decided that members ought to refrain from adhering themselves to the Boy Scouts for the same reason to avoid being a Freemason. You pledge allegiance to a god, but a generic nameless god. Anyone can be a boy scout, and you just have to believe in a higher power to be a freemason, therefore those pledges are not pledges to the Almighty Triune God of the Scriptures. I agree, and thus I believe that would extend to the pledge of allegiance.

Less important I also have political issues with the pledge, particularly I think it would've been appalling to almost anyone from the Revolutionary War. It's funny for me to think of what Thomas Jefferson would say to people devoting themselves to a flag of a centralized power.

 

[Timotheos]

I think the bigger question is pledging one's loyalty to an inanimate object. Granted, this is a civil pledge not a religious one. But you made a great point about centralized loyalty over against states' rights.

 

[W.C. Dean]

I think the bigger question is pledging one's loyalty to an inanimate object. Granted, this is a civil pledge not a religious one. But you made a great point about centralized loyalty over against states' rights.

When I've repeated with others in the past I always refrain from saying "indivisible".

Also yes I agree it's a civil pledge. The pledge to be a boy scout is also non-religious, but it includes a reception of the nameless god, which the Pledge of Allegiance also holds.

 

[Jake]

Could you provide more information about this? I've never heard about it and can't find anything searching: "Quite a few years ago the OPC decided that members ought to refrain from adhering themselves to the Boy Scouts"

 

[W.C. Dean]

Could you provide more information about this? I've never heard about it and can't find anything searching: "Quite a few years ago the OPC decided that members ought to refrain from adhering themselves to the Boy Scouts"

I read about it in D.G. Hart's book "Between the Times" but I did find an OPC article that talks about it. https://opc.org/os.html?article_id=597

 

[Joshua]

My allegiance is to Christ, and His Kingdom. Insofar as other objects of authority respect that, I will obey them in their lawful and indifferent commands. But my obedience to them is unto glorifying Christ. Ergo, I do not pledge allegiance to a flag. I also reject concepts found in the aforementioned pledge:

1. The nation is not indivisible, it's divided by states, who voluntarily came together to form a union, which -by design- ought to be able to leave voluntarily if any particular state does not like the direction the whole union is going in.

2. God is not defined in the pledge, and we are most certainly NOT a nation under the God of Scripture, Who brooks no competitors, and rejects "freedom of religion."

etc.

 

[Howard the Reformer]

My understanding is that the word "indivisible" was added after the Civil War as a slap to the Southern States that attempted to secede from the Union.

 

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

2. God is not defined in the pledge, and we are most certainly NOT a nation under the God of Scripture, Who brooks no competitors, and rejects "freedom of religion."

3. The administrator of an oath, whether civil or ecclesiastical, ought to explain the meaning of the oath, and administer it with suitable solemnity. The well-being of individuals and of society requires that the administrator of an oath know and fear God and understand its nature. Oaths should be administered only to those who understand their meaning.
Eccl. 9:2; Deut. 6:13; Josh. 9:15, 19; cf. 2 Sam. 21:1-14.
RPCNA Constitution of Lawful Oaths and Vows.

 

[Jack K]

I have no problem pledging allegiance to my nation, under God. It is godly to be a patriot, loyal to one's nation, so long that nation occupies its proper place under God. Obviously, the U.S. doesn't do this this perfectly. At times, like many other nations have done, it presumes to demand an allegiance above God and becomes the beast of the sea described in Revelation 13. Whenever that happens, our allegiance to God must come first.

"Under God" is the only place in the pledge where this is made (somewhat) explicit. But most people understand that the principle is implicit whenever a Christian recites the pledge. We are not pledging supreme obedience to the nation, but merely a proper loyalty that comes beneath our supreme loyalty to God.

 

[jwright82]

The US, as of right now and the very very foreseeable future, does not ask us to pledge allegiance to it above God. It only asks us to be good citizens. Whatever lawful things we do in our spare time is our business.

 

[jwright82]

My allegiance is to Christ, and His Kingdom. Insofar as other objects of authority respect that, I will obey them in their lawful and indifferent commands. But my obedience to them is unto glorifying Christ. Ergo, I do not pledge allegiance to a flag. I also reject concepts found in the aforementioned pledge:

1. The nation is not indivisible, it's divided by states, who voluntarily came together to form a union, which -by design- ought to be able to leave voluntarily if any particular state does not like the direction the whole union is going in.

2. God is not defined in the pledge, and we are most certainly NOT a nation under the God of Scripture, Who brooks no competitors, and rejects "freedom of religion."

etc.

Just a question, what do you mean by "rejects "freedom of religion"?

 

[RJ Spencer]

I do not pledge allegiance to anything/anyone other than Christ. I don't even pledge allegiance to the OPC, because there is a chance that one day this denomination will go liberal. How can pledging allegiance be okay, if swearing or taking an oath is not?

 

[Joshua]

Just a question, what do you mean by "rejects "freedom of religion"?

The very first commandment, applicable to all men without exception- is “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” It follows, then -with the modern definition of freedom/liberty- to clarify that the LORD rejects the idea that we, His creatures, are "free" to give our worship to any other.

 

[Solparvus]

Hopefully this is the right category -

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the Pledge of Allegiance. I think we all pretty much agree that we shouldn't sing patriotic hymns or have American flags in our sanctuaries, but I have some thoughts about the Pledge. Most important is its charge 'under God' (which by the way, was not added originally). Quite a few years ago the OPC decided that members ought to refrain from adhering themselves to the Boy Scouts for the same reason to avoid being a Freemason. You pledge allegiance to a god, but a generic nameless god. Anyone can be a boy scout, and you just have to believe in a higher power to be a freemason, therefore those pledges are not pledges to the Almighty Triune God of the Scriptures. I agree, and thus I believe that would extend to the pledge of allegiance.

Less important I also have political issues with the pledge, particularly I think it would've been appalling to almost anyone from the Revolutionary War. It's funny for me to think of what Thomas Jefferson would say to people devoting themselves to a flag of a centralized power.

I fully agree with the OPC stance. And I agree with what @Joshua has said so far. And to be clear, I speak as one commanded by God under Romans 13 to submit to our government's just and legal authority--which I believe it does have, except where God's law is violated. I am to do it, and strive to do it with joy, with patience, and as unto the Lord.

I think our nation is fine saying "under God" so long as its generic. Though, were you to be specific and say "under the Triune God" or "under Christ", you'd see pretty quick what Psalm 2 means by the nations raging against the Lord and His anointed. So long as God is left undefined, it's a false god by default. And the reaction will prove well enough that Jehovah is not intended.

Besides, in Psalm 2, God will not tolerate anything less than for kings, rulers and judges to "kiss the Son." God in the generic will not fulfill this requisite.

 

[Rom]

The Pledge of Allegiance comes out of socialist thinking. It was created by a socialist minister and is the fruit of the social gospel.

Until 1954, it did not contain the words "under God". That was an addition proposed by Eisenhower.

You can read more here: https://www.ushistory.org/DOCUMENTS/pledge.htm

All that said, no way, no how am I pledging allegiance to a government that does not Kiss the Son.

Just watch how quickly it will turn against Christians. We are right on the cusp of that happening unless the Lord pours out His Spirit and is merciful.

Pray for revival and for the people to acknowledge Christ as their Lord.

 

[J.L. Allen]

If you understood the pledge as being a loyal citizen (so far as Scripture permits) and that is it, would that make it justifiable to say?

I struggle with this. I've found myself increasingly uncomfortable with undue loyalty to the nation. Perhaps that is the crossing of the boundary between being patriotic and devout nationalism.

I love my country in the sense of being thankful to God for what we have, but I am also not under any guise that leads me to believe in unnatural exceptionalism.

*edit* Is it any different than obeying laws and customs? Is it any different than naturally being a part of a culture (which we are all part of one, Christian or not)?

 

[Charles Johnson]

I do not pledge allegiance to anything/anyone other than Christ. I don't even pledge allegiance to the OPC, because there is a chance that one day this denomination will go liberal. How can pledging allegiance be okay, if swearing or taking an oath is not?

Swearing and taking oaths is ok. The Westminster Confession has an whole chapter on how and when it's ok.

 

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

It is godly to be a patriot, loyal to one's nation, so long that nation occupies its proper place under God.

My Covenanter may be showing a bit here, but I am curious if being patriotic is limited to loyalty towards one’s nation or if being a true patriot means you want what is best for the nation and it’s inhabitants.

If we agree that what is best for a people and a nation is to acknowledge Christ’s rule and as other have said, have it’s leaders ‘kiss the Son’, wouldn’t it be considered the hight of patriotism to demand that not only from elected officials, but also fully declare Christ’s headship in our constitution and pledges?

 

[Joshua]

I want to clarify -lest I be misunderstood- that we owe obedience to our magistrates in their lawful and indifferent commands, and according to the wholesome laws of the common wealth. Sometimes, that may mean obeying a "lesser" magistrate over the unlawful commands of a "greater." In disobedience to unlawful commands without the comfort of protection from just lesser magistrate, that may mean our deaths or other forms of persecution. We are to fear God, honor the [magistrate(s)], be subject unto the higher powers, according to place or station . . . and that is not diminished one wit (again, according to their lawful and/or indifferent commands) if the magistrate is not a Christian (WCF 23.4). But none of these things is wrapped up in pledging allegiance to a flag.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I am a veteran, and while proud of that in moderation whenever the anthem is played or the pledge is said I stand respectfully, but do not participate in the reciting or singing.

As has been noted the Pledge was part of a movement in the 19th and 20th Centuries which was not only socialist, but utopian in mindset. The deistic Pledge and the various liberal "United" churches are fruits of that.

 

[jwithnell]

I've pondered this over the years. The pledge ranks right up there with the Battle Hymn of the Republic as questionable propaganda.

Respect for the flag itself can easily be seen as an aspect of the fifth commandment. We are to show respect for an authority (symbolized by the flag) God has placed over us.

 

[Grant]

How can pledging allegiance be okay, if swearing or taking an oath is not?

There is certainly biblical and confessional support for taking oaths and vows in a lawful manner outside of a church context. Casting lots can even be done in a lawful manner with qualifications.

God is not defined in the pledge, and we are most certainly NOT a nation under the God of Scripture

So which God are we under? I am not currently aware of an inch of soil not under the reign and control of Yahweh.

I think USA pledge recital is a matter of conscience.

 

[Joshua]

So which God are we under? I am not currently aware of an inch of soil not under the reign and control of Yahweh.

I think USA pledge recital is a matter of conscience.

O, Friend, I think you're fully aware that I am not asserting a matter of not being under his sovereign control (the secret things, a la Deut. 29.29). I am talking, rather, about an acknowledgment of a people's willing submission to the God of Scripture. You should know better.

 

[Rom]

So which God are we under? I am not currently aware of an inch of soil not under the reign and control of Yahweh.

My Hindu parents would say "God" but would mean Brahma. A Mormon, a Jew, and a Unitarian would do something similar.

To go along with what you are saying, would mean that a nation that pledges its allegiance to Allah really means that they are under Jehovah. A strange thing to consider.

 

[Grant]

My Hindu parents would say "God" but would mean Brahma. A Mormon, a Jew, and a Unitarian would do something similar.

To go along with what you are saying, would mean that a nation that pledges its allegiance to Allah really means that they are under Jehovah. A strange thing to consider.

Rom,

Respectfully I have said none of those things nor implied such.

 

[Rom]

Rom,

Respectfully I have said none of those things.

I'm confused. You asked a rhetorical question asking what God we are under; the implication being that the pledge's intention doesn't matter - since we are under Jehovah as a matter of fact. But the word 'God' does not signify Jehovah unless used in an orthodox Christian context.

That word can be used to speak of the god of Unitarianism, Deism, Mohammedism, and even Hinduism as my parents could attest to.

The Nation behind the Flag doesn't acknowledge the Triune God of the Bible and as such, precludes Jehovah from the Pledge.

 

[Grant]

Rom,

The pledge’s intention does matter. Again, regarding the USA pledge I think it is a matter of Christian conscience. In my current thinking I would likely abstain in most situation it was done. As always, I am open to change or further resolve.

A good post here:

https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...ledge-of-allegiance.90419/page-2#post-1110960

And here:

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/usa-residents-only-pledge-of-allegiance.90419/#post-1110766

@kodos {Edited Above}

 

[Rom]

Rom,

The pledge’s intention does matter. Again, regarding the USA pledge I think it is a matter of Christian conscience. I would have no issue saying the pledge among other Christians (like Trail Life or Heritage Girls). However I do not feel obligated to say it every time it is asked. As always, I am open to change or further resolve.

Thanks for taking the time to explain, brother!

 

[Grant]

You should know better.

? But I am not the only one who will read what you posted and I think it needed more qualification.

God is not defined in the pledge, and we are most certainly NOT a nation under the God of Scripture, Who brooks no competitors, and rejects "freedom of religion."

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Infidelity, or difference in religion, doth not make void the magistrates’ just and legal authority, nor free the people from their due obedience to them: from which ecclesiastical persons are not exempted ... (Westminster Confession 23:4)

By parity of reason, infidelity or difference in religion does not make void your patriotic duty to your nation. The fact that neither the civil magistrate nor the nation "kiss the Son" does not free you from your patriotic duties to your country any more than your parents or siblings being unbelievers frees you from your duties to your family.

If I lived in the USA, I would do what I presently do in the UK - salute the flag, sing the national anthem on all occasions except in a worship service, and oppose Marxist rebels and separatists (such as SINn Fein in Northern Ireland and the SNP in Scotland). We do not have a pledge of allegiance over here in the same way that you do. I have no problem, however, taking an oath of allegiance to our current monarch - recognsing that Queen Elizabeth II is our lawful head of state.

I would scruple to take the pledge in the United States because of "one nation ... indivisible." If it is merely saying that the nation should not be divided, I could live with that assertion. If it is saying that the nation cannot and may never be divided, that is something to which I could not pledge. In which case, if I was ever asked to take the pledge, I would ask for that bit to be removed or make clear that I understood the phrase in the former sense.