The role of prayer in light of God's will

[Bandguy]

In another thread, Robin made the following statement:

No human being has hope without Christ.

God will not side with any nation on earth to accomplish His purposes in history. That said, the prayers of the faithful (no matter how small the remnant) have real influence to pursuade the heart of God towards mercy and sustanance. (Such is God's revealed character in Scripture.)

Since I didn't want to hijack the thread, I decided to start another thread about the theological implications of this statement. Since God is sovereign and has decreed all that will be before the foundation of the world, what is the true function or purpose of prayer? Do we really persuade God to go a different direction, despite the fact that he has determined everything beforehand? What does this statement do to the sovereignty of God?

 

[Machaira]

God is never "persuaded" to do anything.

1Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
1Jn 5:15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

I believe that the true purpose of prayer is to conform our will unto God's, not the other way around. I think a good example of how this works can be seen in Abraham's exchange with the LORD in Genesis 18:20-33.

 

[toddpedlar]

In another thread, Robin made the following statement:



Since I didn't want to hijack the thread, I decided to start another thread about the theological implications of this statement. Since God is sovereign and has decreed all that will be before the foundation of the world, what is the true function or purpose of prayer? Do we really persuade God to go a different direction, despite the fact that he has determined everything beforehand? What does this statement do to the sovereignty of God?

The prayers are ordained by our Sovereign God, as part of His Sovereign plan, to accomplish His will. We most certainly do NOT persuade God to go differently than He otherwise would go... but at the same time, those prayers are instruments in God's hands. It's therefore NOT optional. Prayer is our duty, and supporting each other, pleading with God for one another, is a glorious privilege as well as responsibility.

Check Doug Kelly's "If God Already Knows, Why Pray?" for some good advice in this regard. John Bunyan's "Prayer" which BoT puts out as one of the Puritan Paperbacks series is also excellent.


Todd

 

[Robin]

The way we "persuade" God is something to think carefully about.

Yes, God is sovreign - his will is irrefutable. God reveals two "wills" in Scripture. There is his "secret" will which the Christian can never know this side of glory.

There is God's "revealed" will - which is revealed in Scripture. Only here do we find what God wants us to know about things. Period.

Scripture says a lot about prayer. We are commanded to "pray without ceasing" for example.

Abraham engaged in a type of persuasion with God regarding Sodom; David prayed ernestly for the life of his first child that died. There are many examples of prayer offered by the saints as contributing to the mysterious workings of how God carries out His will.

Thank God he does not give us the many sinful prayers we make; but rather grants us what he wills. In the former thread, my point was to suggest (and no one knows) it might be that the decline in culture and the state of our nation IS God's will! But we can't know that. So how do we pray? Obviously, for the welfare of the state, after God's will.

The point is: we are truly INVOLVED in the story of redemption. We look to Christ and pray: "Thy Kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..."

Once again we feel the tension of the "already" and "not yet" and must lean on the Lord's Word and pray, trusting in his good character.



Robin

 

[Scott Bushey]

The way we "persuade" God is something to think carefully about.

Yes, God is sovreign - his will is irrefutable. God reveals two "wills" in Scripture. There is his "secret" will which the Christian can never know this side of glory.

There is God's "revealed" will - which is revealed in Scripture. Only here do we find what God wants us to know about things. Period.

Scripture says a lot about prayer. We are commanded to "pray without ceasing" for example.

Abraham engaged in a type of persuasion with God regarding Sodom; David prayed ernestly for the life of his first child that died. There are many examples of prayer offered by the saints as contributing to the mysterious workings of how God carries out His will.

Thank God he does not give us the many sinful prayers we make; but rather grants us what he wills. In the former thread, my point was to suggest (and no one knows) it might be that the decline in culture and the state of our nation IS God's will! But we can't know that. So how do we pray? Obviously, for the welfare of the state, after God's will.

The point is: we are truly INVOLVED in the story of redemption. We look to Christ and pray: "Thy Kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..."

Once again we feel the tension of the "already" and "not yet" and must lean on the Lord's Word and pray, trusting in his good character.



Robin

Robin,
I agree. However, since God has already decreed a certain outcome already, our prayers will not change those decrees. We are commanded to pray, so we obey. Since Gods decrees are hidden, we pray according to what we believe would be according to His perfect paln and will.

 

[Machaira]

Abraham engaged in a type of persuasion with God regarding Sodom; David prayed ernestly for the life of his first child that died. There are many examples of prayer offered by the saints as contributing to the mysterious workings of how God carries out His will.

Abraham appealed to God not to destroy Sodom if some who were righteous could be found there. Sodom was destroyed. Who was actually "persuaded" through the exchange? Whose will was conformed to whom? Again, Sodom was destroyed.

Yes, David prayed earnestly for his child, but that child died anyway - according to the will of God. What was David's response?

2Sa 12:20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.

Again, who was actually "persuaded" through the exchange? Whose will was conformed to whom? This is prayer.

 

[ReformedDave]

God ordains the 'means' as well as the 'ends'.

 

[Scott Bushey]

God ordains the 'means' as well as the 'ends'.

Dave,
to some degree it's a mystery. Scripture states that our prayers can be hindered. This implies that sin can obstruct; However, this does not mean that God bases His decrees and end results on His sensitivity to the prayers of the saints.

 

[Bandguy]

Abraham appealed to God not to destroy Sodom if some who were righteous could be found there. Sodom was destroyed. Who was actually "persuaded" through the exchange? Whose will was conformed to whom? Again, Sodom was destroyed.

Yes, David prayed earnestly for his child, but that child died anyway - according to the will of God. What was David's response?

2Sa 12:20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.

Again, who was actually "persuaded" through the exchange? Whose will was conformed to whom? This is prayer.

These are all very good points. On the other hand, I know I have read in the OT where one of the prophets prayed for I think Israel, and the Lord turned back his wrath and the Bible says that the Lord Relented. What do we make of passages like this in light of this conversation? I will try to cite the verse later after I put my son to bed.

 

[Machaira]

These are all very good points. On the other hand, I know I have read in the OT where one of the prophets prayed for I think Israel, and the Lord turned back his wrath and the Bible says that the Lord Relented. What do we make of passages like this in light of this conversation? I will try to cite the verse later after I put my son to bed.

Maybe you have something like the following in mind?

Exo 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you."
Exo 32:11 But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, "O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.'"
Exo 32:14 And the LORD relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.

I think a situation like this actually demonstrates praying according to the will of God as per 1 John 5:14. Notice what Moses does in verses 11 - 13. He rehearses the Lord's mighty act in the exodus and His promises to the patriarchs. Moses rightly asertained that these things were the ultimate will of God and he prays accordingly. So why would God seemingly play this "game" with Moses? I believe this was on-the-job training for the divinely appointed mediator of the covenant. Notice in verse 10 God offers to destroy Israel and to make a new nation "of Moses." Moses proceeds to intercede for Israel as a mediator would be expected to do. He passed the test with flying colors.

 

[Robin]

As CS Lewis said, "prayer changes me."

r.

 

[JoshCasey]

Interesting point by C.S. Lewis! I admit it's hard for me to say that prayer changes, anything, because if the thing prayed for is set by God (as of course it is) then the praying for it must also be determined by God. What I really cannot stand are the people who say that God is just waiting for you to pray to Him so He can work in your heart.

 

[BobVigneault]

Todd and Dave already hit on the answer to the original question. The relationship of God's will to prayer is that God wills all of the means by which his purpose is accomplished. Prayer, time, space, motion, physics are all means by which history is ordered.

When scripture says that our sins can hinder our prayers it is reminding us of the destructive power of sin. Sin has definite consequences. Sin hinders our ability to discern and understand the revealed will of God (scripture) and the ability to apply scripture to our daily walk. Sin minimizes our receptiveness to the Holy Spirit's work of revelation and sanctification.

When scripture says that God 'changed his mind' or 'regretted', it is telling us that there is a divine pathos - that God is not impersonal and detached from creation and his creature. This is 'anthropopathic' language, ascribing the language and emotions of mankind to the divine. This is accommodating language, speaking to creatures and condescending to their weakness. These expressions are metaphors to help us understand what incomprehensible God is 'like'.

God says 'to what shall you liken me; God says, 'You thought that I was altogether like you' - God is transcendent and incomprehensible yet he uses man's experience to describe certain of his attributes and language. Mystery is the result of finite language falling short in it's description of the incomprehensible.